Why teachers need more pay

[Flopper]

Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.

.....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....

Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.

Ok it could have been from Dec 20th to Jan 7th. Still a lot more days than we get off you whiny teacher bitches.

That's 19 ******* days off in a row. I would kill for 19 ******* days off you ******* ***** cry baby teachers. Pathetic.

Well, maybe you would be willing to kill for that but would you be willing to spend two hours a night twice a week grading papers, having yard duty once a week breaking up fights, spending 3 days a week loading school buses, meeting with the principal or a department head after class hours once a week. Participating in extracurricular activity twice a Month. Meeting with irate parents as needed, answering emails from students and parents daily, and picking up continuing education credit. Oh, and also going to school 1 night a week for 3 years because the district requires you get your Master's degree in 5 years at your own expense. Frankly, I don't think so.

 

[Flopper]

The issue should not be "do teachers deserve a higher salary". It should be do our kids deserve better teachers. The best students in college rarely even consider education but the fact is these people are exactly who we need in education. What we get in education today, is students that could never make it through med school, law school, engineering or science. So they go into education because the curriculum is easier and they are almost guaranteed a job. Is this who want teaching your kids? You're not going to get the best people in education unless you're willing to pay higher salaries.

 

[SweetSue92]

Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.

Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.

But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.

Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 a week.
Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.

The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
$60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.



So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.

All garbage.

First off, my parents are millionaires. And they were both public school teachers. Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.

"I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"

No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay. Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.

The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap. I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.

Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.

That was his idea of "teaching".

So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness. We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world. Most teachers should be paid less. A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.

None of that bullshit you described happens today.

Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.

Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.

We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.

Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.

Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:

• Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day. What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities. Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies. When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
• Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts. However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
• Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
• Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult. It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
• Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement. Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom. As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.

this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have. In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year. So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else. Very clever though. Hehehe.

I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching. Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers. The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education. Even with more education advancement is not likely. Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money. Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions. What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen. Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.

A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years. She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom. She loves teaching and loves kids. I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it. The pay is immaterial. However, most teachers are not like this. They teach because they need a paycheck. If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people. It's that simple.

How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?

Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?

 

[SweetSue92]

The issue should not be "do teachers deserve a higher salary". It should be do our kids deserve better teachers. The best students in college rarely even consider education but the fact is these people are exactly who we need in education. What we get in education today, is students that could never make it through med school, law school, engineering or science. So they go into education because the curriculum is easier and they are almost guaranteed a job. Is this who want teaching your kids? You're not going to get the best people in education unless you're willing to pay higher salaries.

Wow, who knew. All these people who know all these education majors I have never met, not in college surrounded by ed majors, not in all my 25 years of teaching. I mean it--who knew? All of these teachers saying, "Yeah, I wanted to go to med school but I couldn't cut it, therefore education." Same law school, engineering, etc.

I never met these people. If they are out there, they are the people who drop out in one year, or five, ten at the outside.

I met people who said they loved working with kids and wanted to inspire or encourage others--and the rare person who thought they were trying to take an easy way out, like a family member, who failed student teaching.

Maybe the "best" don't consider education because they don't like to be around people. Maybe they don't like kids. Maybe they don't care about the process of learning--ever think about that? Some people don't give two craps about how people learn, nor do they care to help people do it. Teaching isn't something you FALL INTO because you happen to be suited to nothing else. Teachers are insatiably curious, love to learn, love to learn with others, and of course, love kids. They love the very process of education. That's not transferable to, say, lawyers, for the love of Pete.

Honest to goodness. That I have to even EDUCATE adults about this shows just how little respect anyone has for teachers. You might as well pull breathing adults off the street and just stick them in classrooms. To my great shame, a small part of me is satisfied that we're almost there now.

We deserve it, America does. We deserve it in spades.

 

[anotherlife]

Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.

.....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....

Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.

Ok it could have been from Dec 20th to Jan 7th. Still a lot more days than we get off you whiny teacher bitches.

That's 19 ******* days off in a row. I would kill for 19 ******* days off you ******* ***** cry baby teachers. Pathetic.

Well, maybe you would be willing to kill for that but would you be willing to spend two hours a night twice a week grading papers, having yard duty once a week breaking up fights, spending 3 days a week loading school buses, meeting with the principal or a department head after class hours once a week. Participating in extracurricular activity twice a Month. Meeting with irate parents as needed, answering emails from students and parents daily, and picking up continuing education credit. Oh, and also going to school 1 night a week for 3 years because the district requires you get your Master's degree in 5 years at your own expense. Frankly, I don't think so.

Again, these are not all that much different from what a corporate office usually requires from its executives. So teachers are still liars! Hehehe.

 

[anotherlife]

Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.

Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.

But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.

Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 a week.
Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.

The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
$60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.



So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.

All garbage.

First off, my parents are millionaires. And they were both public school teachers. Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.

"I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"

No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay. Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.

The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap. I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.

Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.

That was his idea of "teaching".

So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness. We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world. Most teachers should be paid less. A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.

None of that bullshit you described happens today.

Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.

Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.

We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.

Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.

Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:

• Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day. What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities. Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies. When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
• Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts. However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
• Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
• Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult. It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
• Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement. Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom. As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.

this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have. In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year. So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else. Very clever though. Hehehe.

I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching. Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers. The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education. Even with more education advancement is not likely. Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money. Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions. What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen. Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.

A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years. She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom. She loves teaching and loves kids. I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it. The pay is immaterial. However, most teachers are not like this. They teach because they need a paycheck. If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people. It's that simple.

How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?

Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?

Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only? It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.

 

[sealybobo]

.....Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. ....

Like, whoever told you that was, like, lying to you.

This years holiday period starts today, December 21st and runs through January 6th. That's a full week less than what you said. Unkotare is right. Someone is lying to you. Either that, or you are telling a bald face lie.

He has a long record of lying.

You actually have a long record of lying. In fact your post is a lie. Show me where or when I have lied.

...Did you wrestle all 4 years? ...

More than 4 years. Then I wrestled in China, and after that in Japan. Now I coach.


Feel (more) stupid yet, liar?

Midget wrestling

 

[sealybobo]

All garbage.

First off, my parents are millionaires. And they were both public school teachers. Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.

"I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"

No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay. Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.

The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap. I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.

Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.

That was his idea of "teaching".

So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness. We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world. Most teachers should be paid less. A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.

None of that bullshit you described happens today.

Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.

We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.

Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.

Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:

• Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day. What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities. Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies. When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
• Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts. However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
• Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
• Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult. It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
• Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement. Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom. As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.

this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have. In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year. So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else. Very clever though. Hehehe.

I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching. Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers. The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education. Even with more education advancement is not likely. Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money. Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions. What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen. Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.

A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years. She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom. She loves teaching and loves kids. I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it. The pay is immaterial. However, most teachers are not like this. They teach because they need a paycheck. If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people. It's that simple.

How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?

Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?

Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only? It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.

And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.

Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.

Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure

 

[SweetSue92]

None of that bullshit you described happens today.

Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:

• Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day. What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities. Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies. When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
• Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts. However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
• Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
• Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult. It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
• Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement. Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom. As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.

this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have. In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year. So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else. Very clever though. Hehehe.

I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching. Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers. The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education. Even with more education advancement is not likely. Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money. Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions. What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen. Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.

A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years. She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom. She loves teaching and loves kids. I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it. The pay is immaterial. However, most teachers are not like this. They teach because they need a paycheck. If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people. It's that simple.

How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?

Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?

Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only? It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.

And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.

Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.

Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure

So what? You don't like your job? Get out of it then!

 

[sealybobo]

this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have. In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year. So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else. Very clever though. Hehehe.

I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching. Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers. The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education. Even with more education advancement is not likely. Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money. Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions. What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen. Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.

A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years. She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom. She loves teaching and loves kids. I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it. The pay is immaterial. However, most teachers are not like this. They teach because they need a paycheck. If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people. It's that simple.

How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?

Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?

Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only? It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.

And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.

Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.

Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure

So what? You don't like your job? Get out of it then!

I love my job.

And I don’t blame you teachers. The entire system is outdated and needs reforming.

A lot of the problem is you have to deal with parents who should have never had those kids

 

[SweetSue92]

I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching. Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers. The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education. Even with more education advancement is not likely. Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money. Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions. What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen. Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.

A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years. She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom. She loves teaching and loves kids. I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it. The pay is immaterial. However, most teachers are not like this. They teach because they need a paycheck. If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people. It's that simple.

How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?

Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?

Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only? It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.

And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.

Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.

Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure

So what? You don't like your job? Get out of it then!

I love my job.

And I don’t blame you teachers. The entire system is outdated and needs reforming.

A lot of the problem is you have to deal with parents who should have never had those kids

whatever

 

[Flopper]

Okay, so I hope everyone can follow me here. I am going to write about how much teachers should be paid, but not from my own perspective. I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons, I just want to clarify that. But let's, for a second, assume I am the kind of person who says "Teachers jobs are easy, they get summers off, they're just glorified babysitters" and the work we all know teachers need to take home doesn't count.

Let's assume we pay teachers less than what I was paid to babysit in high school. So give them...$4/hour. Let's only pay them for the hours they are in school - let's say 6.5 hours a day. That brings their daily pay to $26.

But teachers don't only teach one student. Let's say the teacher teaches 30 students. Every parent should pay $26 a day for their child to be "babysat" and at thirty students that comes out to $780/day.

Now, 5 day school week brings that to $3,900 a week.
Or, if you want to figure in days, let's say they work 180 days a year (meaning no paid vacations) $780/day for 180 days = $140,000.

The average teacher salary tends to hover between $50,000 - $60,000. So, on the high end of that spectrum, let's figure out how much teachers make per hour per child:
$60,000/180 days = $333.33/day. $333.33 per day/30 students = $11.11 per student per day. Figure in the 6.5 hours and that's $1.71 per hour per student.



So teachers get paid more than they do on average, even in my fictional scenario, where we pay teachers less per hour per child than the average babysitter, and don't pay them for any of the additional work they need to do outside of school hours, and give them no vacation pay.

All garbage.

First off, my parents are millionaires. And they were both public school teachers. Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.

"I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"

No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay. Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.

The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap. I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.

Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.

That was his idea of "teaching".

So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness. We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world. Most teachers should be paid less. A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.

None of that bullshit you described happens today.

Teachers would get more pay if 99 % of their tax budget was not all about paying pensions.

Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.

We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.

Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.

Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:

• Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day. What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities. Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies. When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
• Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts. However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
• Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
• Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult. It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
• Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement. Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom. As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.

this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have. In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year. So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else. Very clever though. Hehehe.

I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching. Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers. The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education. Even with more education advancement is not likely. Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money. Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions. What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen. Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.

A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years. She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom. She loves teaching and loves kids. I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it. The pay is immaterial. However, most teachers are not like this. They teach because they need a paycheck. If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people. It's that simple.

How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?

Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?

In 1975, more than one-fifth (22%) of college students majored in education. In 2015, it was just over 10%. Students are not turning away from education as a major because they no longer love kids or teaching. They don't major in education because there are a lot more opportunities and much higher pay in other fields. I taught college course for about 5 years and I can tell you the overriding factors in selecting a major was work after graduation. Can I get a job in the field? How much can I make? What's the advancement opportunities? Better salaries, better working conditions, and better opportunities attract better people. Maybe you think we really don't need our best people in the classroom, just people that love kids.

 

[SweetSue92]

All garbage.

First off, my parents are millionaires. And they were both public school teachers. Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.

"I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"

No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay. Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.

The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap. I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.

Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.

That was his idea of "teaching".

So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness. We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world. Most teachers should be paid less. A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.

None of that bullshit you described happens today.

Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.

We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.

Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.

Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:

• Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day. What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities. Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies. When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
• Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts. However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
• Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
• Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult. It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
• Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement. Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom. As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.

this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have. In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year. So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else. Very clever though. Hehehe.

I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching. Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers. The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education. Even with more education advancement is not likely. Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money. Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions. What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen. Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.

A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years. She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom. She loves teaching and loves kids. I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it. The pay is immaterial. However, most teachers are not like this. They teach because they need a paycheck. If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people. It's that simple.

How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?

Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?

In 1975, more than one-fifth (22%) of college students majored in education. In 2015, it was just over 10%. Students are not turning away from education as a major because they no longer love kids or teaching. They don't major in education because there are a lot more opportunities and much higher pay in other fields. I taught college course for about 5 years and I can tell you the overriding factors in selecting a major was work after graduation. Can I get a job in the field? How much can I make? What's the advancement opportunities? Better salaries, better working conditions, and better opportunities attract better people. Maybe you think we really don't need our best people in the classroom, just people that love kids.

You didn't read what I wrote.

I said you need educators in the classroom--the best educators. You seem to think if someone is a brilliant engineer he will also be a master teacher. I can tell you that's further from the truth than you can imagine.

And college professors, by the way, are often awful teachers. Outside of the School of Ed. Pedagogically they really suck, they don't understand how people learn and they don't care. Do it my way because it's how I learned and it's the only way I know. They're vastly unconcerned about how to actually educate. See: lectures.

 

[Andylusion]

This thread, and others like it, proves that it is true.

.

…what do people think about teacher pay? For starters, fully two-thirds of the public thinks teachers in their state deserve a raise. And, even though most states have laws that outlaw teacher strikes, the public broadly supports teachers’ right to strike, by 53 to 32%. So the public is clearly supportive of teachers.

In an interesting wrinkle, though, it turns out that people don’t actually know how much teachers make. When respondents were told what teachers in their state earn and were then asked for their views, support fell by 18 points (to 49%). In other words, support for more pay softens substantially when respondents learn how much teachers make.

But the fact that the public consistently lines up with DeVos when asked to choose sides on some of the more controversial education differences between the Trump and Obama administrations.

School vouchers the general public supports universal vouchers by a surprisingly wide 54-31 split

Just 25% of the nation supports laws allowing the practice of “agency fees”—which entail states requiring non-members to pay a fee to unions.

The Obama administration issued a controversial directive on school discipline in which it warned school districts that they risked violating federal civil rights law if black or Latino students were disciplined at a higher rate than were other students. Just 27% of the country supports the Obama stance, while 49% opposes it.

On a related note, when it comes to assigning students to K-12 schools, the public firmly opposes the kind of race-based affirmative action that the Obama administration energetically supported but which DeVos has since rescinded. Just 18% of respondents support the Obama stance while 57% oppose it.

It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools. This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.

Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true. I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.

Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.

Public schools are crap. That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more. You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.

My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.

She declined after one week. The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room. It was hell.

This is the reality.

 

[SweetSue92]

.

…what do people think about teacher pay? For starters, fully two-thirds of the public thinks teachers in their state deserve a raise. And, even though most states have laws that outlaw teacher strikes, the public broadly supports teachers’ right to strike, by 53 to 32%. So the public is clearly supportive of teachers.

In an interesting wrinkle, though, it turns out that people don’t actually know how much teachers make. When respondents were told what teachers in their state earn and were then asked for their views, support fell by 18 points (to 49%). In other words, support for more pay softens substantially when respondents learn how much teachers make.

But the fact that the public consistently lines up with DeVos when asked to choose sides on some of the more controversial education differences between the Trump and Obama administrations.

School vouchers the general public supports universal vouchers by a surprisingly wide 54-31 split

Just 25% of the nation supports laws allowing the practice of “agency fees”—which entail states requiring non-members to pay a fee to unions.

The Obama administration issued a controversial directive on school discipline in which it warned school districts that they risked violating federal civil rights law if black or Latino students were disciplined at a higher rate than were other students. Just 27% of the country supports the Obama stance, while 49% opposes it.

On a related note, when it comes to assigning students to K-12 schools, the public firmly opposes the kind of race-based affirmative action that the Obama administration energetically supported but which DeVos has since rescinded. Just 18% of respondents support the Obama stance while 57% oppose it.

It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools. This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.

Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true. I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.

Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.

View attachment 236196
Public schools are crap. That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more. You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.

My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.

She declined after one week. The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room. It was hell.

This is the reality.

Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.

The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.

 

[Unkotare]

.

…what do people think about teacher pay? For starters, fully two-thirds of the public thinks teachers in their state deserve a raise. And, even though most states have laws that outlaw teacher strikes, the public broadly supports teachers’ right to strike, by 53 to 32%. So the public is clearly supportive of teachers.

In an interesting wrinkle, though, it turns out that people don’t actually know how much teachers make. When respondents were told what teachers in their state earn and were then asked for their views, support fell by 18 points (to 49%). In other words, support for more pay softens substantially when respondents learn how much teachers make.

But the fact that the public consistently lines up with DeVos when asked to choose sides on some of the more controversial education differences between the Trump and Obama administrations.

School vouchers the general public supports universal vouchers by a surprisingly wide 54-31 split

Just 25% of the nation supports laws allowing the practice of “agency fees”—which entail states requiring non-members to pay a fee to unions.

The Obama administration issued a controversial directive on school discipline in which it warned school districts that they risked violating federal civil rights law if black or Latino students were disciplined at a higher rate than were other students. Just 27% of the country supports the Obama stance, while 49% opposes it.

On a related note, when it comes to assigning students to K-12 schools, the public firmly opposes the kind of race-based affirmative action that the Obama administration energetically supported but which DeVos has since rescinded. Just 18% of respondents support the Obama stance while 57% oppose it.

It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools. This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.

Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true. I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.

Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.

View attachment 236196
Public schools are crap. That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more. You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.

My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.

She declined after one week. The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room. It was hell.

This is the reality.

Not everyone can handle it, but that’s where a lot of the best education is needed.

 

[Andylusion]

…what do people think about teacher pay? For starters, fully two-thirds of the public thinks teachers in their state deserve a raise. And, even though most states have laws that outlaw teacher strikes, the public broadly supports teachers’ right to strike, by 53 to 32%. So the public is clearly supportive of teachers.

In an interesting wrinkle, though, it turns out that people don’t actually know how much teachers make. When respondents were told what teachers in their state earn and were then asked for their views, support fell by 18 points (to 49%). In other words, support for more pay softens substantially when respondents learn how much teachers make.

But the fact that the public consistently lines up with DeVos when asked to choose sides on some of the more controversial education differences between the Trump and Obama administrations.

School vouchers the general public supports universal vouchers by a surprisingly wide 54-31 split

Just 25% of the nation supports laws allowing the practice of “agency fees”—which entail states requiring non-members to pay a fee to unions.

The Obama administration issued a controversial directive on school discipline in which it warned school districts that they risked violating federal civil rights law if black or Latino students were disciplined at a higher rate than were other students. Just 27% of the country supports the Obama stance, while 49% opposes it.

On a related note, when it comes to assigning students to K-12 schools, the public firmly opposes the kind of race-based affirmative action that the Obama administration energetically supported but which DeVos has since rescinded. Just 18% of respondents support the Obama stance while 57% oppose it.

It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools. This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.

Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true. I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.

Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.

View attachment 236196
Public schools are crap. That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more. You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.

My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.

She declined after one week. The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room. It was hell.

This is the reality.

Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.

The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.

Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers.... You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.

Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers. It just is true. The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example. There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video

And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.

They never have any other fix. I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything. It's always "we need more money". And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.

Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money! We need to pay teachers more!".

So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.

Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.

Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools. There is no question. They use less money, and have better educational outcomes. Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.

They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.

So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.

 

[SweetSue92]

It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools. This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.

Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true. I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.

Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.

View attachment 236196
Public schools are crap. That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more. You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.

My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.

She declined after one week. The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room. It was hell.

This is the reality.

Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.

The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.

Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers.... You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.

Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers. It just is true. The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example. There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video

And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.

They never have any other fix. I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything. It's always "we need more money". And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.

Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money! We need to pay teachers more!".

So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.

Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.

Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools. There is no question. They use less money, and have better educational outcomes. Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.

They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.

So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.

I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.

You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.

Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.

I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.

 

[Andylusion]

…what do people think about teacher pay? For starters, fully two-thirds of the public thinks teachers in their state deserve a raise. And, even though most states have laws that outlaw teacher strikes, the public broadly supports teachers’ right to strike, by 53 to 32%. So the public is clearly supportive of teachers.

In an interesting wrinkle, though, it turns out that people don’t actually know how much teachers make. When respondents were told what teachers in their state earn and were then asked for their views, support fell by 18 points (to 49%). In other words, support for more pay softens substantially when respondents learn how much teachers make.

But the fact that the public consistently lines up with DeVos when asked to choose sides on some of the more controversial education differences between the Trump and Obama administrations.

School vouchers the general public supports universal vouchers by a surprisingly wide 54-31 split

Just 25% of the nation supports laws allowing the practice of “agency fees”—which entail states requiring non-members to pay a fee to unions.

The Obama administration issued a controversial directive on school discipline in which it warned school districts that they risked violating federal civil rights law if black or Latino students were disciplined at a higher rate than were other students. Just 27% of the country supports the Obama stance, while 49% opposes it.

On a related note, when it comes to assigning students to K-12 schools, the public firmly opposes the kind of race-based affirmative action that the Obama administration energetically supported but which DeVos has since rescinded. Just 18% of respondents support the Obama stance while 57% oppose it.

It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools. This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.

Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true. I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.

Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.

View attachment 236196
Public schools are crap. That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more. You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.

My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.

She declined after one week. The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room. It was hell.

This is the reality.

Not everyone can handle it, but that’s where a lot of the best education is needed.

There is no possible way to have "best education" or 'better education' or almost any education, in that kind of environment. Whether it is needed there or not, doesn't matter. It is impossible.

If you read Thomas Sowell's autobiography, he notes that when he was in school himself, when he was a class with other disciplined students, he was a disciplined student, and learned a lot. When he was in a class with problem kids, he learned little, and was more of a problem kid himself.

Equally when Sowell was a teacher, when teaching in a class with disciplined students, he was able to teach very effectively. When he was forced into a class with problem kids that he could not remove from his class, he was not able to teach effectively.

My mother was a teacher, and she described how a section of the town was made into section 8 housing. A girl from that housing was placed into her class. She disrupted the entire class constantly. She was sent to the principals office throughout the entire year. During the parent / teacher meeting, the parent blamed my mother for her child's behavior.

It got to the point, they just left her in the hall way all day long, because no one could do anything with her, nor the other students from that section 8 housing.

Finally the city redrew the school district, and the section 8 housing area was shifted to the inner city public schools, and none of the nightmare students were seen again.

You can't teach insanity. The best teacher on the planet, paid the most money in the world, could not provide better education to these people. You have to ban them from the school. There is no fix. What must happen, is that students who refuse to learn, need to be kicked out, until they figure out that life sucks when you are an uneducated idiot, and then they themselves decide they want to be smarter.

 

[Unkotare]

It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools. This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.

Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true. I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.

Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.

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Public schools are crap. That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more. You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.

My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.

She declined after one week. The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room. It was hell.

This is the reality.

Not everyone can handle it, but that’s where a lot of the best education is needed.

There is no possible way to have "best education" or 'better education' or almost any education, in that kind of environment. Whether it is needed there or not, doesn't matter. It is impossible.

...

Bullshit. Ignorant bullshit.