Why Must We Abandon Our Religious Beliefs to Operate A Business?

[forkup]

The reason I've brought up slavery is to establish that there are precedents for society not allowing acts of discrimination stand.

Slavery isn't illegal because it's discriminatory. It's illegal because it's a fundamental violation of human liberty.

This brings me to my original question. How much discrimination should be allowed?

All. Discriminating with regard to who we associate with is a fundamental human right. Government should never dictate it.

Really? Even when this is the result?

Yep. Even then. We can deal with these issues without resorting to law enforcement. In fact, it's counter productive to make it a legal issue.

In my view. government isn't there to make sure sure we're all nice to one another. It's there to protect our freedom - and part of that is the freedom to be a bigot, an idiot, a jackass, etc...

Let me ask you this. If you think it should be illegal for a business owner to discriminate, by refusing to serve people they don't like, should it it also be illegal for customers to boycott a business for similar reasons? Should it be illegal for gays (and their friends) to boycott Chik-fil-a?

I'm a web developer. Should it be illegal for me to turn down a job because I think the goals of the company are morally repugnant?

First question. No, forcing people to buy goods at a certain store is like trying to prove a negative. So it's impractical.
Second question. You didn't base it on religious beliefs or prejudice, but it is a good point, I'm not entirely sure were I would draw that line.
On a personal note, I'm enjoying this discussion. It's always nice to discuss opposing views without it turning nasty.

 

[BS Filter]

You're very confused.

not enough true love of anything, to go around, right wingers?

God hates sin. Why don't you just admit you hate God. Go ahead, be honest for once.

lol. like i am really going to Believe Any Person claiming Faith, on a for-profit basis.

So in your world Christians shouldn't in business shouldn't make a profit. That's some really warped thinking.

dear, true followers of the teachings of Jesus the Christ, have social Faith and social Hope, for the greater glory of their immortal soul over profit, every time this issue should come up.

You must have missed the part about Jesus teaching on being a good steward of money and investing and making a profit. You should read Luke 19.

 

[BS Filter]

Then why am I a bigot?

Because you're judging people based on their sexual preference.

My Constitution doesn't label me a bigot. In fact, my Constitution protects my religious beliefs. Do you defend the Constitution?

Yep.

So? They judge me based on my religious beliefs. In fact, they target Christians and deliberately try to destroy their livelihood. I don't try to destroy them. Which is worse?

I don't care. I just don't want government taking sides in the 'culture-war'.

Then you should support the Christians. It's liberals and the queer mafia passing these laws. We never had any problem until recently.

The notion that this phony bigoted "Christian" sect somehow represents the Supreme Being is beyond hilarious. Nobody can make that claim, and their actions certainly do not comport with Christianity anyway.
Poor, poor "persecuted" little liars.

You don't know the first thing about Christianity. You don't even believe the Bible. Go to hell.

 

[BS Filter]

Then why am I a bigot?

Because you're judging people based on their sexual preference.

My Constitution doesn't label me a bigot. In fact, my Constitution protects my religious beliefs. Do you defend the Constitution?

Yep.

So? They judge me based on my religious beliefs. In fact, they target Christians and deliberately try to destroy their livelihood. I don't try to destroy them. Which is worse?

I don't care. I just don't want government taking sides in the 'culture-war'.

Then you should support the Christians. It's liberals and the queer mafia passing these laws. We never had any problem until recently.

There are similar laws protecting Christians.

Why have we never had a problem like this until recently?

 

[BS Filter]

Actually slavery is the ultimate manifestation of discrimination.

No it's not. That's why we have different words for them.

Leaving that aside you didn't answer my Question. Refusing service to someone based on religious beliefs is obviously discrimination. So you find that acceptable?

No, I don't find it acceptable. But I don't think it should be illegal. That's a key point too - the law isn't for banning everything we find unacceptable.

discrimination
dɪˌskrɪmɪˈneɪʃ(ə)n/

Discrimination is a matter of personal bias, not violent domination.

Regardless, I'm arguing against forced labor, not in favor of it.

Personal bias grants justification for violent domination in the case of slavery. You can't disconnect the 2. They didn't justify by stating they needed the labor, they justified it by stating the prejudice that blacks were inferior. And you again didn't answer the question. I gave you the definition of discrimination and stated that slavery was discrimination. Why do you feel that slavery isn't discrimination?

You're equivocating. I didn't say slavery wasn't discriminatory. I said discrimination isn't the same thing as slavery. Just like not liking someone isn't the same thing as murdering them. Got it?

Queers don't like Christians and deliberately target Christian businesses and deliberately try to destroy them. That doesn't seem to bother you.

 

[dblack]

Because you're judging people based on their sexual preference.

Yep.

So? They judge me based on my religious beliefs. In fact, they target Christians and deliberately try to destroy their livelihood. I don't try to destroy them. Which is worse?

I don't care. I just don't want government taking sides in the 'culture-war'.

Then you should support the Christians. It's liberals and the queer mafia passing these laws. We never had any problem until recently.

There are similar laws protecting Christians.

Why have we never had a problem like this until recently?

I dunno. But are you in favor or removing all PA protections? Or just those for gays? Should it be legal for a business to discriminate against Christians?

 

[BS Filter]

The queer mafia fines the Christian business owner hundreds of thousands of dollars and bankrupts them. Haven't you heard of this?

The bakers that wen't of of business was Sweetcakes by Melissa in the Oregon case.

#1 The bakery closed BEFORE the fine was levied in the case because of lack of business.

#2 The owners Aaron and Melissa Klein made a PROFIT because the fine was $135,000 (which has been paid BTW) and they received $500,000 in donations. They profited by $365,000.

#3 Oh and the other bakery, Masterpiece Cakeship - the case before the Supreme Court - is still in business.



To say they went out of business because of the fine is a lie.



>>>>>

I'm thrilled they made a profit. When the queers attacked Chik Fil A, their business increased. People don't like bullies.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Why have we never had a problem like this until recently?

We did. One of the cases was Newman v. Piggie Park Enterpises, someone tried to refuse service to black people based on their religious beliefs.

To cut to the end, they lost their religious exemption claim to Public Accommodation laws. The case was tried 40 years ago.


>>>>

 

[dblack]

No it's not. That's why we have different words for them.

No, I don't find it acceptable. But I don't think it should be illegal. That's a key point too - the law isn't for banning everything we find unacceptable.

discrimination
dɪˌskrɪmɪˈneɪʃ(ə)n/

Discrimination is a matter of personal bias, not violent domination.

Regardless, I'm arguing against forced labor, not in favor of it.

Personal bias grants justification for violent domination in the case of slavery. You can't disconnect the 2. They didn't justify by stating they needed the labor, they justified it by stating the prejudice that blacks were inferior. And you again didn't answer the question. I gave you the definition of discrimination and stated that slavery was discrimination. Why do you feel that slavery isn't discrimination?

You're equivocating. I didn't say slavery wasn't discriminatory. I said discrimination isn't the same thing as slavery. Just like not liking someone isn't the same thing as murdering them. Got it?

Queers don't like Christians and deliberately target Christian businesses and deliberately try to destroy them. That doesn't seem to bother you.

As long as their not passing laws or employing violence, not a bit. People have a right to promote their views in society. If you think homosexuality is a sin, you have every right to boycott businesses that promote it. And gays have every right to return the favor.

 

[forkup]

No it's not. That's why we have different words for them.

No, I don't find it acceptable. But I don't think it should be illegal. That's a key point too - the law isn't for banning everything we find unacceptable.

discrimination
dɪˌskrɪmɪˈneɪʃ(ə)n/

Discrimination is a matter of personal bias, not violent domination.

Regardless, I'm arguing against forced labor, not in favor of it.

Personal bias grants justification for violent domination in the case of slavery. You can't disconnect the 2. They didn't justify by stating they needed the labor, they justified it by stating the prejudice that blacks were inferior. And you again didn't answer the question. I gave you the definition of discrimination and stated that slavery was discrimination. Why do you feel that slavery isn't discrimination?

You're equivocating. I didn't say slavery wasn't discriminatory. I said discrimination isn't the same thing as slavery. Just like not liking someone isn't the same thing as murdering them. Got it?

Queers don't like Christians and deliberately target Christian businesses and deliberately try to destroy them. That doesn't seem to bother you.

Well my Christian friend I think in the NT there are several passages of Jesus accepting sinners. Mary Magdalene for one. In fact the parable of the Good Samaritan is about judging people by their actions, not their piety. But I guess you feel Jesus was mistaken there?

 

[WorldWatcher]

I'm thrilled they made a profit. When the queers attacked Chik Fil A, their business increased. People don't like bullies.

Not the point, the point is you claimed the fine bankrupted the bakers. That has not been the case in either national case as the Klein's made a profit well beyond the fine and Mr. Phillips business is not bankrupt and is still open today.


>>>>

 

[BS Filter]

Why have we never had a problem like this until recently?

We did. One of the cases was Newman v. Piggie Park Enterpises, someone tried to refuse service to black people based on their religious beliefs.

To cut to the end, they lost their religious exemption claim to Public Accommodation laws. The case was tried 40 years ago.


>>>>

Not the same. Refusing to serve people because of behavior isn't the same as refusing on race. Homosexuality and same-sex marriage is not a civil rights issue. Ya'll keep trying to make it a civil rights issue, but it isn't. That's a lie.

 

[BS Filter]

discrimination
dɪˌskrɪmɪˈneɪʃ(ə)n/

Discrimination is a matter of personal bias, not violent domination.

Regardless, I'm arguing against forced labor, not in favor of it.

Personal bias grants justification for violent domination in the case of slavery. You can't disconnect the 2. They didn't justify by stating they needed the labor, they justified it by stating the prejudice that blacks were inferior. And you again didn't answer the question. I gave you the definition of discrimination and stated that slavery was discrimination. Why do you feel that slavery isn't discrimination?

You're equivocating. I didn't say slavery wasn't discriminatory. I said discrimination isn't the same thing as slavery. Just like not liking someone isn't the same thing as murdering them. Got it?

Queers don't like Christians and deliberately target Christian businesses and deliberately try to destroy them. That doesn't seem to bother you.

Well my Christian friend I think in the NT there are several passages of Jesus accepting sinners. Mary Magdalene for one. In fact the parable of the Good Samaritan is about judging people by their actions, not their piety. But I guess you feel Jesus was mistaken there?

Jesus accepted sinners, but show me where he accepted sin. Go ahead.

 

[dblack]

Why have we never had a problem like this until recently?

We did. One of the cases was Newman v. Piggie Park Enterpises, someone tried to refuse service to black people based on their religious beliefs.

To cut to the end, they lost their religious exemption claim to Public Accommodation laws. The case was tried 40 years ago.


>>>>

Not the same. Refusing to serve people because of behavior isn't the same as refusing on race. Homosexuality and same-sex marriage is not a civil rights issue. Ya'll keep trying to make it a civil rights issue, but it isn't. That's a lie.

Just to clarify, are you opposed to "public accommodations" laws and "protected classes" in general? Or are you merely opposed to gays being added to the list? Would you support abolishing all such laws, even those that protect people from discrimination based on religion?

 

[forkup]

Discrimination is a matter of personal bias, not violent domination.

Regardless, I'm arguing against forced labor, not in favor of it.

Personal bias grants justification for violent domination in the case of slavery. You can't disconnect the 2. They didn't justify by stating they needed the labor, they justified it by stating the prejudice that blacks were inferior. And you again didn't answer the question. I gave you the definition of discrimination and stated that slavery was discrimination. Why do you feel that slavery isn't discrimination?

You're equivocating. I didn't say slavery wasn't discriminatory. I said discrimination isn't the same thing as slavery. Just like not liking someone isn't the same thing as murdering them. Got it?

Queers don't like Christians and deliberately target Christian businesses and deliberately try to destroy them. That doesn't seem to bother you.

Well my Christian friend I think in the NT there are several passages of Jesus accepting sinners. Mary Magdalene for one. In fact the parable of the Good Samaritan is about judging people by their actions, not their piety. But I guess you feel Jesus was mistaken there?

Jesus accepted sinners, but show me where he accepted sin. Go ahead.

I don't think the couple was asking their help to have sex, so they weren't asking them to accept their behavior. They just were asking them to accept them.

 

[BS Filter]

I'm thrilled they made a profit. When the queers attacked Chik Fil A, their business increased. People don't like bullies.

Not the point, the point is you claimed the fine bankrupted the bakers. That has not been the case in either national case as the Klein's made a profit well beyond the fine and Mr. Phillips business is not bankrupt and is still open today.


>>>>

Great, glad they're still open. However, this isn't the only business that has been targeted. There are others that have been destroyed. You're keying on one business while I'm referring in general.

 

[BS Filter]

Why have we never had a problem like this until recently?

We did. One of the cases was Newman v. Piggie Park Enterpises, someone tried to refuse service to black people based on their religious beliefs.

To cut to the end, they lost their religious exemption claim to Public Accommodation laws. The case was tried 40 years ago.


>>>>

Not the same. Refusing to serve people because of behavior isn't the same as refusing on race. Homosexuality and same-sex marriage is not a civil rights issue. Ya'll keep trying to make it a civil rights issue, but it isn't. That's a lie.

Just to clarify, are you opposed to "public accommodations" laws and "protected classes" in general? Or are you merely opposed to gays being added to the list? Would you support abolishing all such laws, even those that protect people from discrimination based on religion?

I don't believe in "protected classes". You think some people are better than others?

 

[BS Filter]

Personal bias grants justification for violent domination in the case of slavery. You can't disconnect the 2. They didn't justify by stating they needed the labor, they justified it by stating the prejudice that blacks were inferior. And you again didn't answer the question. I gave you the definition of discrimination and stated that slavery was discrimination. Why do you feel that slavery isn't discrimination?

You're equivocating. I didn't say slavery wasn't discriminatory. I said discrimination isn't the same thing as slavery. Just like not liking someone isn't the same thing as murdering them. Got it?

Queers don't like Christians and deliberately target Christian businesses and deliberately try to destroy them. That doesn't seem to bother you.

Well my Christian friend I think in the NT there are several passages of Jesus accepting sinners. Mary Magdalene for one. In fact the parable of the Good Samaritan is about judging people by their actions, not their piety. But I guess you feel Jesus was mistaken there?

Jesus accepted sinners, but show me where he accepted sin. Go ahead.

I don't think the couple was asking their help to have sex, so they weren't asking them to accept their behavior. They just were asking them to accept them.

The business owners were being forced to accept same-sex marriage. That's a sin according to God.

 

[dblack]

Why have we never had a problem like this until recently?

We did. One of the cases was Newman v. Piggie Park Enterpises, someone tried to refuse service to black people based on their religious beliefs.

To cut to the end, they lost their religious exemption claim to Public Accommodation laws. The case was tried 40 years ago.


>>>>

Not the same. Refusing to serve people because of behavior isn't the same as refusing on race. Homosexuality and same-sex marriage is not a civil rights issue. Ya'll keep trying to make it a civil rights issue, but it isn't. That's a lie.

Just to clarify, are you opposed to "public accommodations" laws and "protected classes" in general? Or are you merely opposed to gays being added to the list? Would you support abolishing all such laws, even those that protect people from discrimination based on religion?

I don't believe in "protected classes". You think some people are better than others?

No, I'm opposed to all of it. I was just trying to get a handle on whether you're consistent or not. So, you think it should be illegal for businesses to discriminate against Christians, right? Not trying to 'corner' you or anything. Just want to clarify.

 

[forkup]

You're equivocating. I didn't say slavery wasn't discriminatory. I said discrimination isn't the same thing as slavery. Just like not liking someone isn't the same thing as murdering them. Got it?

Queers don't like Christians and deliberately target Christian businesses and deliberately try to destroy them. That doesn't seem to bother you.

Well my Christian friend I think in the NT there are several passages of Jesus accepting sinners. Mary Magdalene for one. In fact the parable of the Good Samaritan is about judging people by their actions, not their piety. But I guess you feel Jesus was mistaken there?

Jesus accepted sinners, but show me where he accepted sin. Go ahead.

I don't think the couple was asking their help to have sex, so they weren't asking them to accept their behavior. They just were asking them to accept them.

The business owners were being forced to accept same-sex marriage. That's a sin according to God.

Nope baking a cake doesn't signal acceptance, it signals sugar rush,if you're my daughter. they weren't asked to perform the ceremony, or to join the couple in the bedroom. They were asked to bake pastry. By the way, if God is all powerful, wouldn't he be able to judge someone fairly who baked a cake but didn't agree with the lifestyle?