Zone1 Why is Islam considered an Abrahamic religion?

[JoeB131]

Judaism and Christianity clearly have a direct linkage to Abraham and the Torah/Old Testament. But how is Islam, formed centuries later based on a separate "Bible" revealed only to the Prophet Mohammed by the angel Gabriel, an Abrahamic religion? This should be a rational NON-EMOTIONAL discussion. I am at least hoping that is the case.

Because they worship the same God as Christians and Jews and see Abraham as a prophet.

They also see Jesus (known as Isa in Islam) as a prophet.

 

[ElmerMudd]

Thanks, that's good information. Strange that with those common ties, Islam seems to be quite opposed to any relationship with Judaism or Christianity.

Not always. When any religion feels everyone must believe the way we do, there is not peaceful coexistence.

Historical Context of Coexistence
In Islamic history, Christians and Jews are recognized as "People of the Book" (Ahl al-Kitab), as they are fellow Abrahamic faiths who received earlier revelations from God. Under Islamic rule, these communities were often granted a protected status known as dhimmi.

• Legal Protections: The dhimmi status provided explicit legal protection for their lives, property, and freedom of worship, in exchange for paying a special tax called the jizya.
• Cultural and Scientific Exchange: During the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates, particularly in the Islamic Golden Age, Christian scholars and scientists played a vital role by translating Greek philosophical and scientific texts into Syriac and Arabic. This collaboration significantly contributed to the development of Arab-Islamic civilization.
• Examples of Regions:
  • Middle East: Oldest known Christian communities have co-existed with Muslim neighbors for centuries. Countries like Egypt (with its Coptic Christian population), Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Palestine have long histories of interfaith living.
  • Al-Andalus (Islamic Spain): This period is often cited as a high point of interfaith cooperation, where Muslim, Christian, and Jewish communities were partners in science, education, and culture, leading to significant advancements.
  • The Balkans and other regions: Bosnia and other areas under historical Muslim rule also saw centuries of Christian-Muslim coexistence.

Theological and Societal Differences
While societal coexistence has been historical fact, it is important to distinguish this from theological unity or complete equality by modern standards.

• Doctrinal Differences: Islam and Christianity have fundamental theological differences, such as the Christian doctrine of the Trinity and the divinity of Christ, which Islam explicitly rejects, viewing Jesus as a respected prophet, not God.
• Political Tensions: Periods of peaceful coexistence have been interspersed with conflict, particularly when political or ethnic ideologies came into play, as seen in the Crusades or more recent regional conflicts.
• Modern Day: Today, millions of Christians live as minorities in Muslim-majority countries. The possibility and nature of peaceful coexistence in a modern context is a subject of ongoing discussion and varies significantly by country and political climate.

 

[JustAGuy1]

Ishmael.

Bingo.

Ishmael was born of the house maid and not Sarah at the behest of Sarah herself. Sarah couldn't stand it and made Abraham kick them out of the house. Ishmael never got over it and thus began the forever war between Israel and Islam. That's why there will never be peace.

 

[MarathonMike]

Because they worship the same God as Christians and Jews and see Abraham as a prophet.

They also see Jesus (known as Isa in Islam) as a prophet.

Their interpretation of God is VERY different than either the Christian or Judaic God. Not the "same God" from my perspective.

 

[Votto]

You know Jesus is a prophet in Islam, right?

All religions point to Christ as coming from God. It is just sad, however, that Islam makes up their own version of Christ some 500 years later that has nothing to do with reality

Perhaps the most bizarre belief is, is that God took Jesus off the cross and put some other poor sod to die for him even though there is zero historical backing for this claim. Pure lunacy.

But if you think about it, it does sort of make sense as to why Mohammad would make up such a theology as this. It is because Mohammad saw Allah as his greatest warrior to do battle for him because he converted with the sword and imposed his religion through warfare. It would then seem strange to think that God would let a prophet of God like Jesus be torchered and killed, especially since you had planned on doing away with the whole notion he was dying for our sins.

The problem is, is that all the prophets before Jesus were also similarly oppressed and murdered, which makes Jesus fit the mold for a true prophet of God, because generally God sends them to give warnings to people to repent, which is not ever welcomed generally.

 

[MarathonMike]

Islam makes up their own version of Christ some 500 years later that has nothing to do with reality

I find it interesting that the man who received the Quran from an angel is also the man declared "The Final Prophet" in the Quran. Hmmmmm

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Their interpretation of God is VERY different than either the Christian or Judaic God. Not the "same God" from my perspective.

What about their perspective?

 

[frigidweirdo]

That's fine, but Jesus is much more than a prophet to Christians. More specifically, Christians believe Jesus is God in the flesh.

Yes, but the point is that Islam and Christianity are interconnected. Islam didn't just sprout out of nowhere. It came through a long tradition of religion in the region.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Their interpretation of God is VERY different than either the Christian or Judaic God. Not the "same God" from my perspective.

Ask 20 Christians on this forum what "God" is, and you might get 25 different answers.

 

[JoeB131]

Their interpretation of God is VERY different than either the Christian or Judaic God. Not the "same God" from my perspective.

Um, that's kind of silly.

Jews and Christians don't have the same interpretation of God. Catholics and Protestants don't have the same interpretation of God. And don't even get me started on Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other groups.

Our problem with the Islamic world has little to do with their "interpretation of God" and more to do with our imperialist policies.

 

[Monk-Eye]

" Ancestral Trees "

* No More Eponymous Patriarchs To Cover *

I find it interesting that the man who received the Quran from an angel is also the man declared "The Final Prophet" in the Quran. Hmmmmm

Irrespective of perspectives which adherents propose as claims for why mu ha am ad is the last prophet , the claim is based on none beyond isaac and ishmael , such that the respective genetic religions of torahnism and qurayshism were established to preserve the patriarchal lineage of eponymous abraham .

According to the story , abraham settled ishmael in paran and built the kabbah , whereas isaac was to be receive the " promised land " of canaan , contrary with first born tradition - . Zone1 - Eponymous Nomian Patriarch Genetic Religions Of Torahnism And Qurayshism : Isaac Versus Ishmael Sacrifice Circumcision Option .


. Seal of the Prophets - Wikipedia .

 

[Monk-Eye]

" Gullible Fools Option Self Replacement Of Ideals Through Populism "

* Theistic Socialists Embracing Their Own Version of Economic And Civil Authoritarianism *

Our problem with the Islamic world has little to do with their "interpretation of God" and more to do with our imperialist policies.

Fictional ishmaelism had a +1400 years history of homicide and expansion by doctrine , where absolution from violence is afforded to establish justice , according to its own standards for public policy - hisbah .

 

[lightspectera]

.

I believe that the Scriptures demonstrate clearly that Sarah and Isaac were tormented and persecuted by both Hagar and Ishmael.

this is why God commanded Abraham to protect Sarah and Isaac and GOD HIMSELF COMMANDED that Abraham

""" immediately remove Hagar and Ishmael from his household "

and the Scriptures demonstrate that the Ishmaelites are NOT the fathers or relation of the Arabs today,

in fact, the Bible explains that the Ishmaelites were completely destroyed as a people and God promises and gives prophecy that the Ishmaelites would be removed from the earth,


The Trinitarian translation is very different from the manuscripts.

I believe that the Hebrew manuscripts are in contrast to the Trinitarian view and the view of Sarah and Hagar

In Hebrew manuscripts in “ Gen 16:5 “ we find that – Sarah said unto Abram.

חמס / châmâs' - “ = violence, evil, hatred, oppression “ - - is upon - or is come about me giving my maid into your bosom.

this Hebrew word is - “ חמס / châmâs' “ - meaning = violence; evil; cruel damage; hatred; false injustice - as the oppressor, the unrighteous and as a physical - action of violence.

this Hebrew word, châmâs' is the word that Sarah used - in Gen 16:5

this Hebrew word, châmâs' is the same Hebrew word used in Gen 6:11. earth was filled with violence - “ חמס / châmâs' “ God will destroy man with the earth.

We can see exactly what this Hebrew word means

CLICK HERE https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/H2555/chamac.htm

châmâs' does not mean to do something wrong or to make a mistake - this is a Trinitarian untruth.

Zep 1:9 they fill their masters' houses with VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “ and deceit.
Oba 1:10.- for Esau’s seed committed VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “ against Jacob
2sa 22:3, 49. - God my savior – saves me from VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs'
Psa 11:5.- God hates the wicked and him that loveth VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “
Psa 18:48. - God delivereth me from from the VIOLENT “ חמס / châmâs' “ men
Psa 25:19. - my enemies - are many; and they hate me with VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “
Psa 55:9. - o lord; i have seen VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs'“ in the city.
Psa 58:2 - the wickedness of the VIOLENT “ חמס / châmâs'“
Psa 72:14 - he shall redeem their soul from deceit and VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs'
Psa 73:6 VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “ covereth them as a garment.
Eze 7:1 VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “ is risen up into a rod of wickedness.
Hab 2:8 the VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “ of the land; of the city
Amo 3:10 - for they know not to do right, who store up VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “
Eze 7:11 VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “ is risen up into a rod of wickedness
Eze 7:23 make a chain: for the land is full of bloody crimes, and the city is full of חמס / châmâs' violence.
Amo 3:10 they store up VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “ and robbery
Hab 2:7 because .......of men's blood, and VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “ of the land.

the Hebrew word VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “ never ever means “ MY WRONG or MY MISTAKE or some random mistake

this is a word that literally means evil wickedness, hatred, persecution and violence and vile evil and is used; over 60 times - in the bible. here are the total of the 60 instances - where this Hebrew word is used.

Mal 2:16. Zep 1:9. Hab 2:17 / 2:8 / 1:9 / 1:3 / 1:2. Mic 6:12. Jon 3:8. Oba 1:10. Amo 6:3 / 3:10 Joe 3:19 Eze 45:9 / 45:9 / 45:9 / 28:16 / 12:19 / 8:17 / 7:23 / 7:11. Jer 51:46 /51:35 / 20:8 / 6:7. Isa 60:18 / 60:18 / 59:6 / 53:9. Pro 26:6 / 16:29 / 13:2 / 10:11 / 10:11 / 10:6 / 4:17 / 3:31. Psa 140:11 / 140:4 / 140:1 / 73:6 / 72:14 / 73:6 / 72:14 / 58:2 / 55:9 / 35:11 / 27:12 / 25:19 / 18:48 / 11:5 / 7:16. Job 19:7 / 16:17 1 ch 12:172. Sa 22:49 2 / 22:3. Jdg 9:24. Deu 19:16 / 19:16. Exo 23:1. Gen 49:5 / 16:5 / 6:13 / 6:11. Zep 3:4. Eze 22:26. Lam 2:6. Jer 22:3 / 13:22 / 13:22. Pro 8:36. Job 21:27 / 15:33

This Hebrew word - does not simply mean someone making a mistake or committing some type of wrongdoing or doing something wrong

the false Trinitarian mistranslation of Gen 16:5 - it reads - And Sarah said unto Abram; my wrong or my mistake - be upon you Abraham - my wrong be upon you:

but this is a false translation of the verse - it was Hagar and Ishmael who were being violent, and acting out hatred and persecution against them.

Sarah was literally saying that - the injustice and cruelty that i have endured - is now yours to deal with - Abraham.

and this is exactly immediately - exactly what abraham did. Abraham made Sarah’s problem and the very violence and persecution that Sarah and Isaac were experiencing - his very own problem, personally.

Abraham’s very next move, the very next morning, he rose up early and told his other wife and their son to get out of his home and to leave.

the story explains that Sarah tried first to go directly to Hagar and talk to her and defend herself and Hagar ran away into the desert after being confronted ,,,,, - Sarah was trying everything she could to make the situation work - saying look Abraham, violence has come about - evil injustice has come upon, me giving my worker into your bosom, to be your wife and as soon as she conceived - i then became hated, despised and condemned, cursed and offensive in her eyes.

saying, let God judge the division. Abraham, seeing that Sarah was being abused, seeing that his son Isaac was also being abused by Ishmael and that Hagar was not going to change.

When Hagar first left and ran away - the Angel of the Lord appeared to Hagar and commanded her to return back to Sarah - go back to Sarah and to submit and humble herself and to respect Sarah.

Because God knew that this is not what Hagar had been doing and God knew exactly what Hagar was doing. God knew that Hagar and Ishmael were being hateful, violent and were persecuting Sarah and Isaac

God's remedy was to command Hagar to return and change her violent behavior, to submit herself to Sarah - ... RESPECT SARAH

the translators - have in fact purposely lied to you.

Sarah is never recorded in scripture blaming herself - for Hagar and Ishmael’s behavior. Sarah and Isaac were hated, contempted disdained and worthy of physical persecution. - in the eyes of Hagar and Ishmael. in their eyes, their outlook - their actions and daily conduct.

in the eyes of Hagar and Ishmael - Sarah and Isaac were loathed, detested and despised. in their eyes their actions and outlook and treatment of Sarah and Ishmael. Sarah was defending herself and defending her husband - Abram, Sarah was saying look – Abram. I gave my maid servant / worker - into your bosom / in your heart, in your bosom, to be your wife.

meaning - i gave her to you for you to love her – I placed her in your bosom - and she now is become hateful and violent after conceiving her son .

this Hebrew word bosom - חוק is chêq or chôq - meaning - literally - to enclose, to hold, embrace. - the bosom, the heart, the midst or within from inside one’s self or their feelings or emotions

2 Sam 12:3 the man laid the lamb in his חוק chôq bosom, as a daughter.

2 Sam 12:8 And “ I GOD “ gave - your WIVES into thy חוק chôq bosom.

Num 11:12 bear the sucking child in your חוק chôq bosom.
Ruth 4:16 Naomi took the child, and laid it in her חוק chôq bosom
1st Ki 1:2 the young virgin laid in his חוק chôq bosom
isa 40:1 he carries the lambs in his חוק chôq bosom

in fact - the wrong and the violence had already been committed by Hagar and Ishmael. the bible explains in - Gal 4:29 - but as then he that was born after the flesh

Ishmael = PERSECUTED / TORMENTED Isaac.

Sarah was not fighting with Hagar over Abraham - in the manuscripts.

Gen 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar mocking and making fun of and tormenting and persecuting “ Isaac “ :10 she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

:12 And God said unto Abraham, let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman;

IN ALL THAT SARAH HATH SAID UNTO THEE, HEARKEN UNTO HER VOICE;

Ishmael was tormenting and persecuting - “ Isaac “

Gen 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. This Hebrew word MOCKING / MAKING FUN - is - צָחַק - tsâchaq / tsaw-khak' - meaning = To laugh and scorn)

As in - Jdg 16:25 And it came to pass, when their hearts were merry, that they said, Call for Samson, that he may make us צָחַק - tsâchaq / tsaw-khak' - meaning = scorn) to mockery

And they called for Samson out of the prison house; and he made them צָחַק - tsâchaq / tsaw-khak' - scorn) to mockery and they set him between the pillars. Here they had burned out Samson’s eyes and were putting him in their temple to make MOCKERY AND SCORN of him.

Gen 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar making צָחַק - tsâchaq / tsaw-khak' - scorn) mockery mocking and making fun of “ Ishmael “

Sarah was not fighting with Hagar over Abraham - in the manuscripts.

Sarah and Isaac were treated with hated and were despised and condemned, cursed and offensive in the eyes of my Hagar and Ishmael - and Hagar ran away when she was confronted for her behavior and God commanded Hagar to return back to Sarah and to submit herself

When Hagar refused to obey and continued to allow her son to persecute Isaac - God’s command, was the ultimate decision that Abraham obeyed God in removing Hagar and Ishmael out of his home - as God commanded him to do.

Gal 4:29 Ishmael PERSECUTED / TORMENTED Isaac.

Gen 16:5 Sarah said unto Abram - חמס / châmâs' violence, evil, hatred, oppression - is upon me - giving my maid into your bosom.
:4 Sarah was despised in the eyes of Hagar.

Abraham and Sarah loved Hagar and Ishmael very much - Sarah was not upset and fighting with Hagar because Hagar had married Abraham- Sarah gladly agreed to Abraham taking another wife, in fact it was Sarah who first wanted Hagar to be added as another wife

It was not until that AFTER Hagar had conceived her son Ishmael - then Ishmael began to act out VIOLENCE and HATRED toward her son - in an attempt to remove her son out of her way and take control of her family.

EVEN THE HATE AND TORMENT THAT SARAH ENDURED HERSELF - THIS DID NOT CAUSE SARAH TO ATTEMPT TO REMOVE HAGAR FROM HER HOME -

Sarah was not upset by the fact that Hagar was acting hateful toward her.

ONLY AND AFTER Hagar and Ishmael joined together to began tormenting and persecuting her son Isaac.

ONLY THEN - did Sarah see that there was a huge problem that could not be resolved - she could no longer handle the situation, Sarah would have been fine with Hagar acting hateful and violent toward her -

this was not the problem for Sarah -

the problem Sarah had, - was that Ishmael and Hagar were becoming hateful and violent and tormenting and persecuting her son Isaac -

attempting to destroy her son and destroy his life.

There was no fight between Sarah and Hagar over having sexual intercourse with Abraham - the problem was that Hagar and Ishmael were trying to destroy her son and persecuting and tormenting and violent and aggressive persecuting her son - to destroy him in any way they could.

Trinitarians attempt to twist every single narrative in the translation they they do not agree with - because they have absolutely no manuscripts for their faith system.

Evil injustice had come about by Sarah placing her Hagar into the bosom of Abraham - and ONLY after she had conceived her son, the violence and hatred began

...... ONCE HAGAR FOUND SHE HAD CONCEIVED A SON .......


Ishmael was trained and conditioned by his mother to be a hateful, violent “ anti – family traitor “ to his own family and to destroy anyone who he feels is in his way.

 

[ElmerMudd]

.

I believe that the Scriptures demonstrate clearly that Sarah and Isaac were tormented and persecuted by both Hagar and Ishmael.

this is why God commanded Abraham to protect Sarah and Isaac and GOD HIMSELF COMMANDED that Abraham

""" immediately remove Hagar and Ishmael from his household "

and the Scriptures demonstrate that the Ishmaelites are NOT the fathers or relation of the Arabs today,

in fact, the Bible explains that the Ishmaelites were completely destroyed as a people and God promises and gives prophecy that the Ishmaelites would be removed from the earth,


The Trinitarian translation is very different from the manuscripts.

I believe that the Hebrew manuscripts are in contrast to the Trinitarian view and the view of Sarah and Hagar

In Hebrew manuscripts in “ Gen 16:5 “ we find that – Sarah said unto Abram.

חמס / châmâs' - “ = violence, evil, hatred, oppression “ - - is upon - or is come about me giving my maid into your bosom.

this Hebrew word is - “ חמס / châmâs' “ - meaning = violence; evil; cruel damage; hatred; false injustice - as the oppressor, the unrighteous and as a physical - action of violence.

this Hebrew word, châmâs' is the word that Sarah used - in Gen 16:5

this Hebrew word, châmâs' is the same Hebrew word used in Gen 6:11. earth was filled with violence - “ חמס / châmâs' “ God will destroy man with the earth.

We can see exactly what this Hebrew word means

CLICK HERE https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/H2555/chamac.htm

châmâs' does not mean to do something wrong or to make a mistake - this is a Trinitarian untruth.

Zep 1:9 they fill their masters' houses with VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “ and deceit.
Oba 1:10.- for Esau’s seed committed VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “ against Jacob
2sa 22:3, 49. - God my savior – saves me from VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs'
Psa 11:5.- God hates the wicked and him that loveth VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “
Psa 18:48. - God delivereth me from from the VIOLENT “ חמס / châmâs' “ men
Psa 25:19. - my enemies - are many; and they hate me with VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “
Psa 55:9. - o lord; i have seen VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs'“ in the city.
Psa 58:2 - the wickedness of the VIOLENT “ חמס / châmâs'“
Psa 72:14 - he shall redeem their soul from deceit and VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs'
Psa 73:6 VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “ covereth them as a garment.
Eze 7:1 VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “ is risen up into a rod of wickedness.
Hab 2:8 the VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “ of the land; of the city
Amo 3:10 - for they know not to do right, who store up VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “
Eze 7:11 VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “ is risen up into a rod of wickedness
Eze 7:23 make a chain: for the land is full of bloody crimes, and the city is full of חמס / châmâs' violence.
Amo 3:10 they store up VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “ and robbery
Hab 2:7 because .......of men's blood, and VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “ of the land.

the Hebrew word VIOLENCE “ חמס / châmâs' “ never ever means “ MY WRONG or MY MISTAKE or some random mistake

this is a word that literally means evil wickedness, hatred, persecution and violence and vile evil and is used; over 60 times - in the bible. here are the total of the 60 instances - where this Hebrew word is used.

Mal 2:16. Zep 1:9. Hab 2:17 / 2:8 / 1:9 / 1:3 / 1:2. Mic 6:12. Jon 3:8. Oba 1:10. Amo 6:3 / 3:10 Joe 3:19 Eze 45:9 / 45:9 / 45:9 / 28:16 / 12:19 / 8:17 / 7:23 / 7:11. Jer 51:46 /51:35 / 20:8 / 6:7. Isa 60:18 / 60:18 / 59:6 / 53:9. Pro 26:6 / 16:29 / 13:2 / 10:11 / 10:11 / 10:6 / 4:17 / 3:31. Psa 140:11 / 140:4 / 140:1 / 73:6 / 72:14 / 73:6 / 72:14 / 58:2 / 55:9 / 35:11 / 27:12 / 25:19 / 18:48 / 11:5 / 7:16. Job 19:7 / 16:17 1 ch 12:172. Sa 22:49 2 / 22:3. Jdg 9:24. Deu 19:16 / 19:16. Exo 23:1. Gen 49:5 / 16:5 / 6:13 / 6:11. Zep 3:4. Eze 22:26. Lam 2:6. Jer 22:3 / 13:22 / 13:22. Pro 8:36. Job 21:27 / 15:33

This Hebrew word - does not simply mean someone making a mistake or committing some type of wrongdoing or doing something wrong

the false Trinitarian mistranslation of Gen 16:5 - it reads - And Sarah said unto Abram; my wrong or my mistake - be upon you Abraham - my wrong be upon you:

but this is a false translation of the verse - it was Hagar and Ishmael who were being violent, and acting out hatred and persecution against them.

Sarah was literally saying that - the injustice and cruelty that i have endured - is now yours to deal with - Abraham.

and this is exactly immediately - exactly what abraham did. Abraham made Sarah’s problem and the very violence and persecution that Sarah and Isaac were experiencing - his very own problem, personally.

Abraham’s very next move, the very next morning, he rose up early and told his other wife and their son to get out of his home and to leave.

the story explains that Sarah tried first to go directly to Hagar and talk to her and defend herself and Hagar ran away into the desert after being confronted ,,,,, - Sarah was trying everything she could to make the situation work - saying look Abraham, violence has come about - evil injustice has come upon, me giving my worker into your bosom, to be your wife and as soon as she conceived - i then became hated, despised and condemned, cursed and offensive in her eyes.

saying, let God judge the division. Abraham, seeing that Sarah was being abused, seeing that his son Isaac was also being abused by Ishmael and that Hagar was not going to change.

When Hagar first left and ran away - the Angel of the Lord appeared to Hagar and commanded her to return back to Sarah - go back to Sarah and to submit and humble herself and to respect Sarah.

Because God knew that this is not what Hagar had been doing and God knew exactly what Hagar was doing. God knew that Hagar and Ishmael were being hateful, violent and were persecuting Sarah and Isaac

God's remedy was to command Hagar to return and change her violent behavior, to submit herself to Sarah - ... RESPECT SARAH

the translators - have in fact purposely lied to you.

Sarah is never recorded in scripture blaming herself - for Hagar and Ishmael’s behavior. Sarah and Isaac were hated, contempted disdained and worthy of physical persecution. - in the eyes of Hagar and Ishmael. in their eyes, their outlook - their actions and daily conduct.

in the eyes of Hagar and Ishmael - Sarah and Isaac were loathed, detested and despised. in their eyes their actions and outlook and treatment of Sarah and Ishmael. Sarah was defending herself and defending her husband - Abram, Sarah was saying look – Abram. I gave my maid servant / worker - into your bosom / in your heart, in your bosom, to be your wife.

meaning - i gave her to you for you to love her – I placed her in your bosom - and she now is become hateful and violent after conceiving her son .

this Hebrew word bosom - חוק is chêq or chôq - meaning - literally - to enclose, to hold, embrace. - the bosom, the heart, the midst or within from inside one’s self or their feelings or emotions

2 Sam 12:3 the man laid the lamb in his חוק chôq bosom, as a daughter.

2 Sam 12:8 And “ I GOD “ gave - your WIVES into thy חוק chôq bosom.

Num 11:12 bear the sucking child in your חוק chôq bosom.
Ruth 4:16 Naomi took the child, and laid it in her חוק chôq bosom
1st Ki 1:2 the young virgin laid in his חוק chôq bosom
isa 40:1 he carries the lambs in his חוק chôq bosom

in fact - the wrong and the violence had already been committed by Hagar and Ishmael. the bible explains in - Gal 4:29 - but as then he that was born after the flesh

Ishmael = PERSECUTED / TORMENTED Isaac.

Sarah was not fighting with Hagar over Abraham - in the manuscripts.

Gen 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar mocking and making fun of and tormenting and persecuting “ Isaac “ :10 she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

:12 And God said unto Abraham, let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman;

IN ALL THAT SARAH HATH SAID UNTO THEE, HEARKEN UNTO HER VOICE;

Ishmael was tormenting and persecuting - “ Isaac “

Gen 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. This Hebrew word MOCKING / MAKING FUN - is - צָחַק - tsâchaq / tsaw-khak' - meaning = To laugh and scorn)

As in - Jdg 16:25 And it came to pass, when their hearts were merry, that they said, Call for Samson, that he may make us צָחַק - tsâchaq / tsaw-khak' - meaning = scorn) to mockery

And they called for Samson out of the prison house; and he made them צָחַק - tsâchaq / tsaw-khak' - scorn) to mockery and they set him between the pillars. Here they had burned out Samson’s eyes and were putting him in their temple to make MOCKERY AND SCORN of him.

Gen 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar making צָחַק - tsâchaq / tsaw-khak' - scorn) mockery mocking and making fun of “ Ishmael “

Sarah was not fighting with Hagar over Abraham - in the manuscripts.

Sarah and Isaac were treated with hated and were despised and condemned, cursed and offensive in the eyes of my Hagar and Ishmael - and Hagar ran away when she was confronted for her behavior and God commanded Hagar to return back to Sarah and to submit herself

When Hagar refused to obey and continued to allow her son to persecute Isaac - God’s command, was the ultimate decision that Abraham obeyed God in removing Hagar and Ishmael out of his home - as God commanded him to do.

Gal 4:29 Ishmael PERSECUTED / TORMENTED Isaac.

Gen 16:5 Sarah said unto Abram - חמס / châmâs' violence, evil, hatred, oppression - is upon me - giving my maid into your bosom.
:4 Sarah was despised in the eyes of Hagar.

Abraham and Sarah loved Hagar and Ishmael very much - Sarah was not upset and fighting with Hagar because Hagar had married Abraham- Sarah gladly agreed to Abraham taking another wife, in fact it was Sarah who first wanted Hagar to be added as another wife

It was not until that AFTER Hagar had conceived her son Ishmael - then Ishmael began to act out VIOLENCE and HATRED toward her son - in an attempt to remove her son out of her way and take control of her family.

EVEN THE HATE AND TORMENT THAT SARAH ENDURED HERSELF - THIS DID NOT CAUSE SARAH TO ATTEMPT TO REMOVE HAGAR FROM HER HOME -

Sarah was not upset by the fact that Hagar was acting hateful toward her.

ONLY AND AFTER Hagar and Ishmael joined together to began tormenting and persecuting her son Isaac.

ONLY THEN - did Sarah see that there was a huge problem that could not be resolved - she could no longer handle the situation, Sarah would have been fine with Hagar acting hateful and violent toward her -

this was not the problem for Sarah -

the problem Sarah had, - was that Ishmael and Hagar were becoming hateful and violent and tormenting and persecuting her son Isaac -

attempting to destroy her son and destroy his life.

There was no fight between Sarah and Hagar over having sexual intercourse with Abraham - the problem was that Hagar and Ishmael were trying to destroy her son and persecuting and tormenting and violent and aggressive persecuting her son - to destroy him in any way they could.

Trinitarians attempt to twist every single narrative in the translation they they do not agree with - because they have absolutely no manuscripts for their faith system.

Evil injustice had come about by Sarah placing her Hagar into the bosom of Abraham - and ONLY after she had conceived her son, the violence and hatred began

...... ONCE HAGAR FOUND SHE HAD CONCEIVED A SON .......


Ishmael was trained and conditioned by his mother to be a hateful, violent “ anti – family traitor “ to his own family and to destroy anyone who he feels is in his way.

You are saying many Christian's interpretation of the Bible is incorrect. What if your interpretation is incorrect. What makes your interpretaion better than any other mortal man. We are all flawed.

 

[lightspectera]

You are saying many Christian's interpretation of the Bible is incorrect. What if your interpretation is incorrect. What makes your interpretaion better than any other mortal man. We are all flawed.

i understand your question and examination of my post and i do greatly appreciate the opportunity you have kindly given me to reply.

i noticed that in quoting my comment you presented the entire post and if you could point to a single selection or section within my post that you feel is an interpretaion or interpretation this would be helpful for both of us.


i was not attempting so much as to to interpret the Hebrew manuscripts into English but - rather explain exactly what the Hebrew word חמס / châmâs' violence, evil, hatred, oppression- -means when Sarah says

חמס / châmâs' - is upon - or is come about or upon me giving my maid into your bosom.

this Hebrew word is - “ חמס / châmâs' “ - means = violence; evil; cruelty damage; hatred; false injustice - as the oppressor, the unrighteous and as a physical - action of violence.

the translators interpret this word as something that is directly connected with the direct act of a indicated mistake or a wrong decision as where a woman is giving her husband another wife in polygamy marriage -

this action is characterized by the translators as an act of horrible violence, cruelty and as a bloody transgression as the meaning of the Hebrew word “ חמס / châmâs' “ - means = violence; evil; cruelty.

to alter the meaning of the word that strictly means, in definition, the very meaning of " violence; evil; cruelty " this is a word associated directly as result of bloodshed through violent acts "

the translators take this word and connect it to Sarah's action and common tradition of the traditional family practice of a common basic marriage decision of taking on another wife in marriage

its the way the translators portray Sarah as the one who was a fault by admitting that her wrong doing was giving Abraham another wife by taking another wife as something associated in Hebrew as violence, evil; cruelty and of bloodshed through violent acts "

when it is the reversal that is clearly explained multiple time to describe Hagar and Ishmael as the very one who were acting out and behaving in a cruel and violent and persecuting way. this is explained over and over and over in vivid detail - yet the translators bypass all of this and translate the passage as Sarah saying to Abraham that she made a mistake and did wrong to give him another wife.

it just contradicts everything that the Bible is about in both the marriage practices and also the violent and cruel persecuting actions of Hagar and Ishmael that led to God himself commanding Abraham to listen to the voice of his wife and remove Hagar and Ishmael because Sarah was a good woman who was truly being attacked and abused with her little son.

:12 And God said unto Abraham..........................
IN ALL THAT SARAH HATH SAID UNTO THEE, HEARKEN UNTO HER VOICE;

it just changes the original message, contradicting everything surrounding the entire bible message just to throw in an anti - polygamy - side - note .
Gen 16:5 Sarah said to Abram, violence, cruelty / wickedness has come about me giving my maid into your bosom

as soon as she found she was pregnant I was despised in her eyes.

this is what she said, Sarah is not equating the violence, cruelty / wickedness being inflicted on her son as something she personally had done as a " Wrongdoing or a Mistake "

the violence cruelty is come about by me giving my main into your bosom as soon as she conceived I was then hated ...

Let God judge the division.

the translators intentionally change the meaning and message to leave the reader to believe that Sarah is responsible for herself and her little son being abused and persecuted and attacked because she broke some small rule and went astray and committed a mistake .

when God himself commands Hagar to return back to Sarah and submit to her
- yet God completely changes his mind once Hagar and Ishmael began their assault and violent attack.