Why is a State Religion a bad idea ?

[Political Junky]

How are you not free from religion ?

True freedom would allow for both to exist
believers and non believers, would it not?

So you're OK with Muslim, Buddhist, and Hindu artifacts along with Christian ones in public places?

 

[Vidi]

How are you not free from religion ?

True freedom would allow for both to exist
believers and non believers, would it not?

So you're OK with Muslim, Buddhist, and Hindu artifacts along with Christian ones in public places?

I honestly dont see what the big deal is.

I can identify the artifacts belonging to my belief system and I am not threatened by the artifacts of other faiths.

Put a Kali up in the White House and a bhudda on the lawn for all I care. As long as we are all free to worship as we see fit, who cares?

 

[Political Junky]

How are you not free from religion ?

True freedom would allow for both to exist
believers and non believers, would it not?

So you're OK with Muslim, Buddhist, and Hindu artifacts along with Christian ones in public places?

I honestly dont see what the big deal is.

I can identify the artifacts belonging to my belief system and I am not threatened by the artifacts of other faiths.

Put a Kali up in the White House and a bhudda on the lawn for all I care. As long as we are all free to worship as we see fit, who cares?

All those have beautiful art associated with their beliefs, I agree.
I just wonder if Neotrotsky would.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Christians don't want a theocracy. As a pointed out before, God wants a willing heart and a willing mind. You can't force people into heaven.

We want our Republic Restored.

That's not entirely true. There are Christian dominionist movements in the US.

Utah is an LDS theocracy, more or less.

 

[syrenn]

How are you not free from religion ?

True freedom would allow for both to exist
believers and non believers, would it not?

So you're OK with Muslim, Buddhist, and Hindu artifacts along with Christian ones in public places?

I honestly dont see what the big deal is.

I can identify the artifacts belonging to my belief system and I am not threatened by the artifacts of other faiths.

Put a Kali up in the White House and a bhudda on the lawn for all I care. As long as we are all free to worship as we see fit, who cares?

I care. I don't want to see anyones anything anywhere. Feel free to worship what ever you want.... in the privacy of your own home.


Then again... ya never know what people worship. Phallic Monuments have been worshiped for centuries. I would LOVE to several of them in all government buildings.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Christians don't want a theocracy.

No one ever said they did.

As a pointed out before, God wants a willing heart and a willing mind. You can't force people into heaven.

That’s not the issue.

The issue is the need of many conservative Christians for conformity, where religious diversity and dissent are perceived as a threat to Christian dogma, and the conjoining of church and state is seen as a means to counter that threat. This isn’t advocacy of ‘theocracy’ on the part of conservative Christians, rather it’s more of a religious ‘majority rule,’ where Christianity as the dominant faith should be allowed to express that dominance in the secular political realm.

We want our Republic Restored.

The Republic is in no need of ‘restoration,’ it exists now, as it always has, functioning as intended by the Framers.

 

[JDzBrain]

Theocracy is , no doubt a statist form of gov't

However, I see nothing wrong with local gov'ts or federal for that matter
putting up religious decorations that represent the different faiths.
I really do not view that as a "state" religion but more as a reflection of the political body.
If the people are upset by it then they can vote accordingly


Up to the mid 1800's, some states actually had an official state religion since
it was not allowed at the Federal level but that did not exclude states from doing it

Actually Neo, there were 9 different OFFICIAL state religions...all some form of Christianity, spread among the 13 original states.

ALL of them had an official state religion. And that would be fine today if that's what the citizens of that state wanted.

The reason that states eventually DROPPED official religions was for the same principle that Jefferson asked and got Virgina to drop theirs. In his case, it was because he wanted to found a State College. NOT a secular college, but one that had 6 different theological colleges. Problem was, the state could not use the state's...the people's taxes to fund or operate a state college other than the OFFICIAL religion. So...they dropped it. He was the former president and author of the Constitution after all. ;~)

Eventually, the rest of the states came to the same realization and dropped their religions. That realization is the reason that over 1/3rd of all hospitals in this country are still Catholic to this day.

The founders weren't worried about a theocracy.

The reason there was no appetite for an official religion at the national level was, as was pointed out, the example of England and the King founding the Protestant faith to combat the influence of Catholicism and force people to tithe to the state. It was MORE than enough of a example to the founders for not going down THAT road.

And the difference in national religion and a state religion is this. The founders saw each state as sovereign with the authority to do the will of the MAJORITY of it's citizens, all united under one central authority established for mutual protection and order. If one of these sovereign states passed a law or adopted a religion you don't agree with...move to one where you do! If the NATION passes a law or adopts a religion you don't like...where do you go then?

They'd just come from Europe. Been there done that...not allowed to go back. ;~)

It wasn't about the vote as much as it was about mobility. The vast majority of the founders and their ancestors MOVED to the new world to escape religious persecution and oppression. The vote is how we enforce our will. Mobility is how we ensure our freedom. They wanted to insure that the same things that happened in Europe never happened to the citizens of the new nation they founded.

THAT is why no national religion!

 

[there4eyeM]

The very fact of mixing religion with nation is, in effect, deifying the state. That is definitely something against the best interests of human beings.

 

[FA_Q2]

How are you not free from religion ?

True freedom would allow for both to exist
believers and non believers, would it not?

When you guys (and no, I don't mean you personally) are advocating laws purely on the basis of "My Magic Sky Friends says we should do it this way" the I am not free from religion.

So we need to repeal murder laws to make you happy?

Come on avatar. Your better than this trolling statement.


Murder laws are not in existence soley because of the bible. I don't think they have any connection with the bible or religion at all. In general and disregarding governmental corruption/idiocy, most laws exist for one of two reasons: ether to regulat and control the generall activities of society to make things run smother or to protect another's rights. Murder laws are there because you are infringing on all my rights should You murder me.


Ideally, no laws should be rooted in religious dogma. That's not to say religion does not impact law, the mere fact that religions men and women write law/ vote means that it will have an indirect impact through the morals and worldviews of those individuals. Religion influencing law is not the same as law written based on dogma. For instance:
Laws in the bible belt that require businesses to be closed on Sunday's are religios laws. Honestly, they should not exist.

Laws that make robbery and theft illegal are not religios laws even though they are in religious books. They protect my property rights.

 

[Neotrotsky]

So you're OK with Muslim, Buddhist, and Hindu artifacts along with Christian ones in public places?

I honestly dont see what the big deal is.

I can identify the artifacts belonging to my belief system and I am not threatened by the artifacts of other faiths.

Put a Kali up in the White House and a bhudda on the lawn for all I care. As long as we are all free to worship as we see fit, who cares?

All those have beautiful art associated with their beliefs, I agree.
I just wonder if Neotrotsky would.

If you look back through the prior posts
I did say:

However, I see nothing wrong with local gov'ts or federal for that matter
putting up religious decorations that represent the different faiths.
I really do not view that as a "state" religion but more as a reflection of the political body.
If the people are upset by it then they can vote accordingly ​

Then the question of legal came up
and we showed that in public forums, such things are allowed, by the courts,
as a form of expression.

 

[Neotrotsky]

For the record, I DO NOT believe there should be a State Religion
and I believe most people do, as well.

Why is it "bad" or why do you think it is bad ?

But as Locke argued and as I believe,
the government lacked authority in the area of individual conscience.
and the social contract should avoid it....

Matters of Conscience are Individual and Personal. Caesar has Zero claim there. Life is good, huh.

Well, for many years now, "Caesar" has made "excursions" into this area....


Do I feel that the gov't has a legal right to tell me what to believe, love or hate?
No

Now, if any of a person's beliefs, loves or hates somehow interfere with another's property rights or
constitutional rights then the court is there to address those events, properly.

However, I do find the area of "hate laws" to be of a dubious nature, legally and doubtful of their equal application.
Nothing but poor law passed to appease promoters of identity politics and the collective body. An opportunity for
politicians to make it look like, they really "care".

Are the "hate laws" inclusive of all hate- no
So some hate is allowable but others are not

Individual liberty and all the "freedoms" it contains are a "package" deal, good and bad.
They are not "mutually exclusive" and have a "mutually dependent" relationship.

 

[JoeB131]

There is no such thing. You can disbelieve, but that's still a religion. And belief or lack of belief doesnt change the fact that God is still there.

And yes, for most of history church and state went hand and hand. Thankfully, the Founders learned from early Israel and the early Christian ages when there wasnt a Church and state established.

That's kind of funny from someone who belongs to the only "religion" who attempted to establish a theocracy in this country before the feds slapped you down in 1857.

And if Atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.

By your own standards, you have a lot of religions then.

You don't believe in Baal, Zeus, Odin, Osiris, Krishna, Amaterasu, etc. There a whole lot of Gods you don't believe in, therefore you have a lot of religions.

I just believe in one less God than you do.

 

[JoeB131]

How are you not free from religion ?

True freedom would allow for both to exist
believers and non believers, would it not?

When you guys (and no, I don't mean you personally) are advocating laws purely on the basis of "My Magic Sky Friends says we should do it this way" the I am not free from religion.

So we need to repeal murder laws to make you happy?

Um... no. Murder was against the law long before people invented your magic sky friend, and in societies where they never heard of your magic sky friend. So no trying to claim credit for outlawing murder (when in fact, the Bible advocates killing a whole lot of people for no good reason - adulterers, rape victims, gays, people who pick up sticks on the Sabbath, etc.)

 

[High_Gravity]

Look at the countries that have a state religion, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc. see how fucked up things are there? no thank you.

How about... the UK?

What about it? Muslims over there are setting up Sharia courts everywhere and demanding Islamic law.

 

[JDzBrain]

Come on avatar. Your better than this trolling statement.


Murder laws are not in existence soley because of the bible. I don't think they have any connection with the bible or religion at all. In general and disregarding governmental corruption/idiocy, most laws exist for one of two reasons: ether to regulat and control the generall activities of society to make things run smother or to protect another's rights. Murder laws are there because you are infringing on all my rights should You murder me.


Ideally, no laws should be rooted in religious dogma. That's not to say religion does not impact law, the mere fact that religions men and women write law/ vote means that it will have an indirect impact through the morals and worldviews of those individuals. Religion influencing law is not the same as law written based on dogma. For instance:
Laws in the bible belt that require businesses to be closed on Sunday's are religios laws. Honestly, they should not exist.

Laws that make robbery and theft illegal are not religios laws even though they are in religious books. They protect my property rights.

Actually FA...he's not trolling and you are dead wrong!

There are SEVERAL countries in this world right now that sanction MURDER by the Judeo Christian definition of murder that our laws AND the American culture IS based on. Honor killing of girls in MOST Muslim countries for one example.

We've put a half dozen Muslim fathers in jail over the last few years for it and they go home and eat supper with what's left of their family in the middle east!

Like it or not...our laws ARE based on the bible. There is a REASON that the 10 Commandments as written in Exodus are prominently carved in stone in the Supreme Court building and in THOUSANDS of state and court houses...the places we make and maintain law...all across this country. (Click HERE to see examples) And that reason is NOT because Moses had copies made and we are preserving them as antiquities.

It's because 99.9% of the people who settled and founded this country WERE CHRISTIANS and the bible says, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not bare false witness...the very foundations our laws are based on.

A society...ALL societies and their laws are based on their collective experience. Foremost in that is religion and the edicts directed by it. It's been that way throughout all of history. From the Druids to the Aztecs who sacrificed humans because their gods demanded it and whose laws reflected that to the Romans to the United States of America.

To deny THAT...is to deny our very nature!

 

[JDzBrain]

There is no such thing. You can disbelieve, but that's still a religion. And belief or lack of belief doesnt change the fact that God is still there.

And yes, for most of history church and state went hand and hand. Thankfully, the Founders learned from early Israel and the early Christian ages when there wasnt a Church and state established.

That's kind of funny from someone who belongs to the only "religion" who attempted to establish a theocracy in this country before the feds slapped you down in 1857.

And if Atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.

By your own standards, you have a lot of religions then.

You don't believe in Baal, Zeus, Odin, Osiris, Krishna, Amaterasu, etc. There a whole lot of Gods you don't believe in, therefore you have a lot of religions.

I just believe in one less God than you do.

THIS IS THE CLEAN DEBATE ZONE!!!

Attacking someone because of their religion or lack of religion IS a personal attack. STOP IT!

 

[Avatar4321]

How are you not free from religion ?

True freedom would allow for both to exist
believers and non believers, would it not?

So you're OK with Muslim, Buddhist, and Hindu artifacts along with Christian ones in public places?

"Free exercise" means just that. People are free to exercise their religious beliefs in public. In fact, I encourage it.

 

[Avatar4321]

Christians don't want a theocracy. As a pointed out before, God wants a willing heart and a willing mind. You can't force people into heaven.

We want our Republic Restored.

That's not entirely true. There are Christian dominionist movements in the US.

Utah is an LDS theocracy, more or less.

No it's not it's a republic.

 

[Avatar4321]

The Republic is in no need of ‘restoration,’ it exists now, as it always has, functioning as intended by the Framers.

So we are a Republic where the Federal governmen lives within its means and is limited to the enumerated powers set forth in the Constitution where power is decentralized to the states and local populations?

We aren't the same Republic our Founders set up, in fact, it's arguable whether we are still a Republic in anything other than name as it is.

 

[Avatar4321]

There is no such thing. You can disbelieve, but that's still a religion. And belief or lack of belief doesnt change the fact that God is still there.

And yes, for most of history church and state went hand and hand. Thankfully, the Founders learned from early Israel and the early Christian ages when there wasnt a Church and state established.

That's kind of funny from someone who belongs to the only "religion" who attempted to establish a theocracy in this country before the feds slapped you down in 1857.

And if Atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.

By your own standards, you have a lot of religions then.

You don't believe in Baal, Zeus, Odin, Osiris, Krishna, Amaterasu, etc. There a whole lot of Gods you don't believe in, therefore you have a lot of religions.

I just believe in one less God than you do.

Which, of course, is outright false as no theocracy has ever been attempted. Nor did the Feds slap anyone down. In fact, Buchannan's blunder made the Feds look incredibly stupid for trying to put down a non-existant rebellion. Especially when he didnt do anything about the actual rebellion occuring in the States.

Athiesm is a religion, whether you admit it or not.