Why I Am Not A Christian

[eagleseven]

There is no fanatic so zealous in evangelizing as an atheist with an axe to grind.

Have you met a Jehova's Witness?

God forbid they ever just shrug and say, "To each his own" about the belief choices of others.

Two billion Christians and one billion Muslims didn't appear overnight.

 

[Avatar4321]

Well, that helps me get to know you alittle better. Thank you Madeline.

I don't know all the details about your experience with God. But I follow God because He has revealed Himself to me through His Holy Spirit. I've been touched by the Inspiration that comes from the Spirit. I've been enlightened to things far beyond my understanding. I've tasted of the fruits and they taste good.

I'm sure I could go through each and every one of your points one by one. But it is rather late and Im only online because I can't sleep right now. Im not coherent enough to type it all out in any sort of rational response.

One thing I can tell you, I don't think mankind has tapped a fraction of the knowledge God has prepared for us. I include myself in that. We don't recieve all the blessings He has in store for us because we haven't prepared ourselves for it. People don't get answers all the time because they don't really want them or they have no desire to act or change according to them. Or they get answers they don't like and try to write it off. I know I do far too often, and I'm actually looking for it.

 

[del]

So what I'm hearing here is - correct me if I'm wrong - "I'm not a Christian because some people who happened to be church officials ACTUALLY EXPECTED ME TO RESPECT AUTHORITY FIGURES!!" The horror of it all, being expected as a child to respect one's elders and those in authority over you. And, of course, that NEVER happens to children outside of a church environment. Certainly, secular schools don't ever expect kids to be respectful of authority.

Then, further, what I'm hearing is "I got answers to my questions, but I didn't like them, so that means THEY WEREN'T ANSWERS!!" Have I got that right? It's not that there weren't any answers. It's that she decided they didn't suit her. One wonders if Mad would declare mathematics nonexistent if she decided that 4 pissed her off as the answer to 2+2.

Seems to me that the problem here is less that Christianity isn't measuring up than that Mad just has an attitude problem and expects the universe to adjust itself around her, and summarily rejects the existence and validity of anything that doesn't immediately fit the way SHE has decided the universe is going to be.

Oh, while we're demanding answers to snotty, insincere questions, perhaps someone can answer a snotty, completely sincere question for me: WHY, precisely, are we supposed to try to justify our beliefs to someone who can't even be bothered to respect them enough to ask polite, sincere questions about them? Mad thinks Christianity is bullshit. I think her atheism is bullshit. The only difference is, I don't feel the need to start a whole thread just to TELL her how full of shit I consider her to be.

is someone holding a gun to your head?

 

[Douger]

1. If God is Omnipotent, then why is there evil in the world? I have heard every single justification for this, from free will to the "evil is necessary so goodness an show up by contrast" one. None of them wash with me.

If God is omnipotent, and the sole creator, then evil comes from him (as does everything), and thus he is both good and evil.

Why would an omnipotent God need to fight anyone, let alone a devil, save for amusement?

2. If Christ is the Messiah, then why didn't humanity enjoy a better life after he was here? There were still wars, and poverty, and suffering. I don't think most Christians understand the Jewish concept of a "Messiah". That person is supposed to SAVE us. I'm not feeling the saving bit so much.

The Jewish Scholar Maimonides celebrated the execution of Jesus, declaring Jesus to be the great deceiver mentioned in Daniel's apocalypse. Given how Christians have tormented Jews over the past 2000 years, I cannot blame him.


The Holy Spirit allows old men to claim divine right without evidence.


It is also considered the reason why God gave us the Koran...to put down the heresy of pseudo-polytheism once and for all.


It makes sense, if you understand that for 2000 years, the religion was developed by emperors, kings, and their supporters.


Why do you think 2 billion people are Christian? It is not because their ancestors spontaneously saw the light and abandoned their native beliefs...

For instance, Portugal would only sell firearms to Japanese Daimyo (lords) who converted to Christianity. Eight-six such Daimyos converted, just to purchase firearms. The hated Oda Nobunaga used these guns to unite feudal Japan, and protected the missionaries until his assassination.


Prayer is about as effective as "the power of positive thinking."


For millions of people across history, violence in the name of God was clearly right...and a guaranteed ticket to heaven. In the context of religion, even suicide bombing is perfectly rational.

9. How can you seriously believe that a man in a red jump suit "tempts" you? Why can't you just accept responsibility for the evil you do? You're human -- no one has to tempt you. You're full of evil, selfish impulses and can only control them through the wonders of social conditioning, like the rest of us.

From a practical perspective, the red jump suit is social conditioning. Tis no different from believing in karma.

10. Why do you need a "promise of Heaven" to do what you know is right? Don't you have a conscience? When you do the wrong thing, don't you feel that?

A conscience is a product of social conditioning, hence the role for religion.

If we were both raised in 13th-century Mongolia, for instance, our conscience would be telling us to loot and pillage for the benefit of our tribe.

---

I suggest you read [ame=http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446579807]Amazon.com: God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything (9780446579803):…[/ame] for an alternative perspective.

So the neocons descended from 13th century Mongolia ? I thought that was the Noo Joo ? Same difference.

 

[Avatar4321]

is someone holding a gun to your head?

Nope. Though if I continue to speak out the way I have been, I may have a boot on my neck.

 

[CurveLight]

I can believe God exists, but I cannot believe in an After-Life. Dead is dead. Finito. The notion that you can live an evil life and still get into Heaven because you know the magic words is so preposterous to me I can hardly believe that anyone buys it. And the notion of "saving people after they have died" is ridiculous. If there is no personal responsibility then we are all savages.

Sounds like you need to make peace with God instead of holding a grudge because you were subjected to emotional abuse by those who were charged to nurture. Your OP questions really are not questions at all. They come across as a scapegoat to justify your anger that will continue to consume until you find forgiveness.

 

[Barb]

The question I always love to ponder is " thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife" does that mean I can covet my neighbors husband?

yes.

 

[Madeline]

I was tired when I wrote the Op and could have done a better job, I suppose. I didn't write it to "prosletise atheism" and I don't consider myself an atheist. I have a firm belief in the Divine, but none whatsoever in an After-Life. I'm not sure what the name of this belief system would be, but t'aint atheism.

I don't think forgiveness is always best. Not if that means we forget. The Catholic Clergy of the 1950's and 1960's that I knew, observed, lived with and now judge were vicious child abusers, both physically and sexually (though thank God I escaped that horror show). I am fairly convinced you cannot emotionally abuse a child who sees you as a perpetual stranger they wish would go away, but if you can the drumbeat of my childhood was "sex is bad and women are the source of all evil". In order to feel a sense of dignity, I think it was necessary to reject that belief. And it wasn't hard to do. I think one reason my religious training never "took" is that it was far too much at odds with what I had learned from my folks, which seemed dead-on. People have value, regardless of their station in life. Education and art matter but money does not, after you have paid the bills. Forcing your neighbor to live in poverty is wrong. Lying and bullying people is wrong. Etc.

Some Christians I can kinda sorta understand. Avatar makes a certain amount of sense to me -- someone on a spiritual quest. Cecille seems angry that not everyone shares her beliefs, and while that is a familiar syndrome to me, it isn't especially easy to understand. Remember the part about "faith is a gift"? Why tag people who are not as "blessed" as you feel you have been? Where does the anger come from, if every cell in your being "believes" -- hook, line and sinker?

I am most amazed by fundamentalists. How is it possible to question evolution or believe the Bible is an accurate history of mankind? If you truly think God created the Earth in seven days, how do you account for dinosaurs? Neanderthal Man? I can't get over the fact that some people value a sort of anti-rationality, anti-science, anti-education, anti-progress, etc. Mysticism does not confuzzle me; altered states of consciousness appeal to a lot of people. But this rejection of knowledge of the natural world in favor of a fairy tale you surely must know is a lie? What is the pay off for that?

But like anyone else, my biggest question for Christians is how have you managed to miss the central message? "Love thy neighbor as thyself", "Judge not, lest ye be judged", "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone"? Do you just disregard these messages when they interfere with your impulse to be hateful or aggressive or acquire great wealth by evil means?

If we are supposed to be ethical beings, and I think we are, regardless of our faith, then doesn't there come a point when you look at your Pope, preacher or reverend and say "No, that's wrong. I won't do it." Ever? How can the drive to behave ethically coexist with total allegiance to anyone else's precepts?

 

[CurveLight]

I was tired when I wrote the Op and could have done a better job, I suppose. I didn't write it to "prosletise atheism" and I don't consider myself an atheist. I have a firm belief in the Divine, but none whatsoever in an After-Life. I'm not sure what the name of this belief system would be, but t'aint atheism.

I don't think forgiveness is always best. Not if that means we forget. The Catholic Clergy of the 1950's and 1960's that I knew, observed, lived with and now judge were vicious child abusers, both physically and sexually (though thank God I escaped that horror show). I am fairly convinced you cannot emotionally abuse a child who sees you as a perpetual stranger they wish would go away, but if you can the drumbeat of my childhood was "sex is bad and women are the source of all evil". In order to feel a sense of dignity, I think it was necessary to reject that belief. And it wasn't hard to do. I think one reason my religious training never "took" is that it was far too much at odds with what I had learned from my folks, which seemed dead-on. People have value, regardless of their station in life. Education and art matter but money does not, after you have paid the bills. Forcing your neighbor to live in poverty is wrong. Lying and bullying people is wrong. Etc.

Some Christians I can kinda sorta understand. Avatar makes a certain amount of sense to me -- someone on a spiritual quest. Cecille seems angry that not everyone shares her beliefs, and while that is a familiar syndrome to me, it isn't especially easy to understand. Remember the part about "faith is a gift"? Why tag people who are not as "blessed" as you feel you have been? Where does the anger come from, if every cell in your being "believes" -- hook, line and sinker?

I am most amazed by fundamentalists. How is it possible to question evolution or believe the Bible is an accurate history of mankind? If you truly think God created the Earth in seven days, how do you account for dinosaurs? Neanderthal Man? I can't get over the fact that some people value a sort of anti-rationality, anti-science, anti-education, anti-progress, etc. Mysticism does not confuzzle me; altered states of consciousness appeal to a lot of people. But this rejection of knowledge of the natural world in favor of a fairy tale you surely must know is a lie? What is the pay off for that?

But like anyone else, my biggest question for Christians is how have you managed to miss the central message? "Love thy neighbor as thyself", "Judge not, lest ye be judged", "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone"? Do you just disregard these messages when they interfere with your impulse to be hateful or aggressive or acquire great wealth by evil means?

If we are supposed to be ethical beings, and I think we are, regardless of our faith, then doesn't there come a point when you look at your Pope, preacher or reverend and say "No, that's wrong. I won't do it." Ever? How can the drive to behave ethically coexist with total allegiance to anyone else's precepts?

You're all over the place so I will try to keep this somewhat focused. Your OP questions have no real answer. There are theories but no real knowledge. As for "no life after death," I agree that is a myth but probably for different reasons. Death, like time and nature, is a carefully constructed invention designed for the illusion of control. We are fragile arrogant idiots so we label events we really do not understand to give us a false sense of order and control. Enter Religion. That is an institution built upon the idea of our self imposed supremacy.
Saying you are not a Christian because of crimes committed by Christians is a bullshit excuse and until you admit your anger you will never get past that hurdle. As for forgiveness, it is not about forgetting. It is about remembering mistakes and honoring those harmed by avoiding them in the future.

 

[AllieBaba]

What irriates me more than anything is the smug assumption that with education atheism must follow.

I'm educated, my sister is educated, my friends are educated and yet we're Christian. In fact, most of us were raised in atheist families...either admittedly or in practice. My mom claimed to be an atheist and was proud of it, as was her father.

 

[CurveLight]

What irriates me more than anything is the smug assumption that with education atheism must follow.

I'm educated, my sister is educated, my friends are educated and yet we're Christian. In fact, most of us were raised in atheist families...either admittedly or in practice. My mom claimed to be an atheist and was proud of it, as was her father.

More often than not when people make self proclamations of being educated or intelligent the opposite often bears out as closer to being accurate.

 

[syrenn]

The bottom line is not so much what you like or don't like, how things are done or not done, what the "clergy" in any particular faction do or don't do, god or no god, is one very simple thing.

FAITH.

You have it or you don't. You believe in something greater then yourself or you don't. In that simple word, faith, there is no right or wrong in terms of what religion or non religion you subscribe to. There is no having to reconcile yourself to conflicting doctrine or teachings. There is no right or one religion to teach you how to worship, pray, understand or believe.

There is no one right way. Their is however, faith

Everyone has it within themselves to be good or bad, hate or love. (Which if you would like to think, could make each and every of us "divine.") You don't need any religion to teach you that.

 

[mudwhistle]

The question I always love to ponder is " thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife" does that mean I can covet my neighbors husband?

Only if you live next door to me.

 

[The great dane]

Cant be asked to read all the bullshit here, but here are the answers to your questions. Im not religeous, im just a student so of course I know this.

1. If God is Omnipotent, then why is there evil in the world? I have heard every single justification for this, from free will to the "evil is necessary so goodness an show up by contrast" one. None of them wash with me.

Humans have free will, free will to make our own decisions, when we ate that freaking apple we learned about good and evil. There is evil in the world because some people choose to do evil.

2. If Christ is the Messiah, then why didn't humanity enjoy a better life after he was here? There were still wars, and poverty, and suffering. I don't think most Christians understand the Jewish concept of a "Messiah". That person is supposed to SAVE us. I'm not feeling the saving bit so much.

Jesus saved us by taking away the sin we were born with because of the whole "dont eat that apple!"

3. I don't get what the Holy Spirit is about. A Supreme Being that seems not to have existed before God wanted to knock Mary up and now has no purpose at all.

God, the holy spirit and jesus are the same thing, how wierd that may sound. They are three different aspects of the same thing

4. The notion of a Trinity seems to contradict the first of the Ten Commandments: monotheism. If there is only one God, there cannot be three. It just isn't rational.

Check out the answer for question number 3. Oh and by the way, the ten commandments arent christian unless you are talking about the commandments Jesus gave, but I think you are thinking about Moses.

5. Speaking of rational, thanks for the condemnation of abortion, birth control, sex for Clergy (that paid off so well, didn't it?), people who are not Catholic (or whatever flavor you may be), etc. A special thanks to the "Creationism" nutters who've brought a new age of enlightenment into the classroom.

Dont really see any question here

6. How is it "Christian" to deny food or medical care to a child if their parents won't first agree to convert to your religion? If your religion is so great, won't the people whom you serve eventually get curious about it? Why's it okay to coerce people into relinquishing their culture and their beliefs in favor of yours because you have the economic upper hand?

Its not okay, if any christians are doing that, they arent true christians.

7. If prayer actually works, and God actually listens, isn't it evil to pray for the defeat of a high school football team or the results of a test? Doesn't God expect that you'll only pray for stuff that brings you closer to him?

Dont have a real answer for that, but being selfish is a bad thing, so my guess would be that he puts you on ignore

8. How is it possible to reconcile, in your own mind, all the hatred and aggression undertaken in the name of religion with any message of any major religion? You know that it is wrong. How is it okay to commit Major Evil as long as you invoke God's name?

It isnt okay. Anyone claiming to do evil in God's name, doesnt know a thing about God and will be punished by Jesus on judgement day Killing isnt accepted, to bad for all the soldiers

9. How can you seriously believe that a man in a red jump suit "tempts" you? Why can't you just accept responsibility for the evil you do? You're human -- no one has to tempt you. You're full of evil, selfish impulses and can only control them through the wonders of social conditioning, like the rest of us.

Are you thinking about santa claus? Humans are evil or good by nature, we learned about good and evil when they ate that freaking apple. We can choose what to do, some people choose evil and some choose good sometimes. Our dicisions is what we will be judged on at judgement day. So no, nobody tempting us, we decide ourselves.

10. Why do you need a "promise of Heaven" to do what you know is right? Don't you have a conscience? When you do the wrong thing, don't you feel that?

I guess they need a carrot

 

[mudwhistle]

I am always confused and intrigued about the catholic idea of living in poverty.

If living in the Vatican is living in poverty, please may I have some?

I think that living in poverty comes from the example that nuns and priests set or that Jesus lived in poverty yet he never went without.

I think that's a better life then slaving all your life just so Uncle Sam can take it from us....and give it to someone else.

I like the way Jesus lived.

 

[CurveLight]

I am always confused and intrigued about the catholic idea of living in poverty.

If living in the Vatican is living in poverty, please may I have some?

I think that living in poverty comes from the example that nuns and priests set or that Jesus lived in poverty yet he never went without.

I think that's a better life then slaving all your life just so Uncle Sam can take it from us....and give it to someone else.

I like the way Jesus lived.

Jesus taught a socialist economy....which is why the earliest Christians were socialists.

 

[mudwhistle]

So what I'm hearing here is - correct me if I'm wrong - "I'm not a Christian because some people who happened to be church officials ACTUALLY EXPECTED ME TO RESPECT AUTHORITY FIGURES!!" The horror of it all, being expected as a child to respect one's elders and those in authority over you. And, of course, that NEVER happens to children outside of a church environment. Certainly, secular schools don't ever expect kids to be respectful of authority.

Then, further, what I'm hearing is "I got answers to my questions, but I didn't like them, so that means THEY WEREN'T ANSWERS!!" Have I got that right? It's not that there weren't any answers. It's that she decided they didn't suit her. One wonders if Mad would declare mathematics nonexistent if she decided that 4 pissed her off as the answer to 2+2.

Seems to me that the problem here is less that Christianity isn't measuring up than that Mad just has an attitude problem and expects the universe to adjust itself around her, and summarily rejects the existence and validity of anything that doesn't immediately fit the way SHE has decided the universe is going to be.

Oh, while we're demanding answers to snotty, insincere questions, perhaps someone can answer a snotty, completely sincere question for me: WHY, precisely, are we supposed to try to justify our beliefs to someone who can't even be bothered to respect them enough to ask polite, sincere questions about them? Mad thinks Christianity is bullshit. I think her atheism is bullshit. The only difference is, I don't feel the need to start a whole thread just to TELL her how full of shit I consider her to be.

Mad is a guy....

And after seeing his description of the way he grew up you can understand why he's so angry.

We don't have to justify our beliefs to someone that never took the time to learn them much less understand them enough to give a intelligent appraisal of them.

Most of those folks formed their opinions of Christianity through 3rd parties. Wives tails and rumors abound.

Being raised in a Catholic orphanage isn't exactly the best place to learn about the gospel of Christ. I suggest reading the Bible....then reading it again....ask questions....don't just listen to those that hate Christians.

 

[mudwhistle]

I am always confused and intrigued about the catholic idea of living in poverty.

If living in the Vatican is living in poverty, please may I have some?

I think that living in poverty comes from the example that nuns and priests set or that Jesus lived in poverty yet he never went without.

I think that's a better life then slaving all your life just so Uncle Sam can take it from us....and give it to someone else.

I like the way Jesus lived.

Jesus taught a socialist economy....which is why the earliest Christians were socialists.

Once again you've got it totally wrong.

Jesus taught us to be giving....not to be subjugated by an abusive government.

Socialism takes away our choices. Jesus taught us that we have choices.

 

[Toro]

I'm a lazy, non-dogmatic Christian. So I'll try to answer these in a lazy, non-dogmatic Christian way.

1. If God is Omnipotent, then why is there evil in the world? I have heard every single justification for this, from free will to the "evil is necessary so goodness an show up by contrast" one. None of them wash with me.

Put it another way. If there is no God, why is there love in the world? Why is the presence of evil a contradiction of the existence of God? Why is love not a proof of the existence of God? Perhaps man's natural state is a nasty one.

2. If Christ is the Messiah, then why didn't humanity enjoy a better life after he was here? There were still wars, and poverty, and suffering. I don't think most Christians understand the Jewish concept of a "Messiah". That person is supposed to SAVE us. I'm not feeling the saving bit so much.

Well, we do enjoy a better life than 2000 years ago.

Jesus promised heaven in the after-life, not heaven on earth. Plus, I find that deeply religious people generally are happier in life. They may believe in some wacky things, but I think those people's lives are better for having God in their lives.

3. I don't get what the Holy Spirit is about. A Supreme Being that seems not to have existed before God wanted to knock Mary up and now has no purpose at all.

I don't get it either.

4. The notion of a Trinity seems to contradict the first of the Ten Commandments: monotheism. If there is only one God, there cannot be three. It just isn't rational.

You know what else is a contradiction? God seems to be a sinner, if you read the bible. He seems to dishing out a lot of wrath and is quite envious.

I don't take the bible literally word for word. Instead, I take the central messages of the bible.

5. Speaking of rational, thanks for the condemnation of abortion, birth control, sex for Clergy (that paid off so well, didn't it?), people who are not Catholic (or whatever flavor you may be), etc. A special thanks to the "Creationism" nutters who've brought a new age of enlightenment into the classroom.

Creationism is utterly bizarre and scientifically contradicted.

6. How is it "Christian" to deny food or medical care to a child if their parents won't first agree to convert to your religion? If your religion is so great, won't the people whom you serve eventually get curious about it? Why's it okay to coerce people into relinquishing their culture and their beliefs in favor of yours because you have the economic upper hand?

People have different interpretations of the bible. One shouldn't condemn nor question the existence of God because of what his nutter followers say and do. Many crimes against humanity were done so in the name of God. I can't imagine He is very pleased with that.

7. If prayer actually works, and God actually listens, isn't it evil to pray for the defeat of a high school football team or the results of a test? Doesn't God expect that you'll only pray for stuff that brings you closer to him?

Yup, its pretty dumb. A friend of ours moved to a Deep South town that had its school budget cut and they were dropping the band. After school, members of the band had a prayer. You can pray, or RAISE TAXES!

8. How is it possible to reconcile, in your own mind, all the hatred and aggression undertaken in the name of religion with any message of any major religion? You know that it is wrong. How is it okay to commit Major Evil as long as you invoke God's name?

Those are the actions of man. If man is doing evil and stupid things in God's name, that's man's fault, not God's.

9. How can you seriously believe that a man in a red jump suit "tempts" you? Why can't you just accept responsibility for the evil you do? You're human -- no one has to tempt you. You're full of evil, selfish impulses and can only control them through the wonders of social conditioning, like the rest of us.

I live heavy metal music so you're probably asking the wrong guy.

10. Why do you need a "promise of Heaven" to do what you know is right? Don't you have a conscience? When you do the wrong thing, don't you feel that?

I don't need God to do what's right.

 

[Toro]

Abridged version of Cliff's Notes version of the Bible.

"God creates man. And everything man does makes God angry."