Why have people come to believe health care is a "right" when it actually isn't?

[Bfgrn]

So corporations will be moderated by WHOM...an 'invisible hand'?

Well, we could just ignore them until they go away.

Seriously. I know it's counter-intuitive to you, coming from the liberal tradition of the last hundred years or so, but corporate power over us is entirely via state intervention. They have no private armies or police. And without the collusion of government, they can't force us to do business with them.

This is why it's so insane, from my perspective, to see liberals supporting nonsense like ACA. Do you seriously think that the way to reign in the insurance industry is to force us all to buy their products?!? Every time liberals seek to mitigate corporate power by expanding government economic intervention, the corporations smile and hire another lobbyist.

You have woeful ignorance of the history of this nation...

Pinkerton National Detective Agency, usually shortened to the Pinkertons, is a private security guard and detective agency established in the United States by Allan Pinkerton in 1850.

During the labor unrest of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, businessmen hired the Pinkerton Agency to infiltrate unions, supply guards, keep strikers and suspected unionists out of factories, as well as recruiting goon squads to intimidate workers. One such confrontation was the Homestead Strike of 1892, in which Pinkerton agents were called in to reinforce the strikebreaking measures of industrialist Henry Clay Frick, acting on behalf of Andrew Carnegie. The ensuing battle between Pinkerton agents and striking workers led to the deaths of seven Pinkerton agents and nine steelworkers. The Pinkertons were also used as guards in coal, iron, and lumber disputes in Illinois, Michigan, New York, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia as well as the Great Railroad Strike of 1877 and the Battle of Blair Mountain in 1921. The organization was pejoratively called the "Pinks" by its opponents.

 

[dblack]

Well, we could just ignore them until they go away.

Seriously. I know it's counter-intuitive to you, coming from the liberal tradition of the last hundred years or so, but corporate power over us is entirely via state intervention. They have no private armies or police. And without the collusion of government, they can't force us to do business with them.

This is why it's so insane, from my perspective, to see liberals supporting nonsense like ACA. Do you seriously think that the way to reign in the insurance industry is to force us all to buy their products?!? Every time liberals seek to mitigate corporate power by expanding government economic intervention, the corporations smile and hire another lobbyist.

You have woeful ignorance of the history of this nation...

Pinkerton National Detective Agency, usually shortened to the Pinkertons, is a private security guard and detective agency established in the United States by Allan Pinkerton in 1850.

During the labor unrest of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, businessmen hired the Pinkerton Agency to infiltrate unions, supply guards, keep strikers and suspected unionists out of factories, as well as recruiting goon squads to intimidate workers. One such confrontation was the Homestead Strike of 1892, in which Pinkerton agents were called in to reinforce the strikebreaking measures of industrialist Henry Clay Frick, acting on behalf of Andrew Carnegie. The ensuing battle between Pinkerton agents and striking workers led to the deaths of seven Pinkerton agents and nine steelworkers. The Pinkertons were also used as guards in coal, iron, and lumber disputes in Illinois, Michigan, New York, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia as well as the Great Railroad Strike of 1877 and the Battle of Blair Mountain in 1921. The organization was pejoratively called the "Pinks" by its opponents.

Oh good grief. Are you being deliberately specious? The insurance industry isn't using the Pinkerton's to force us to buy insurance. It's using the fucking IRS.

 

[Bfgrn]

Seriously. I know it's counter-intuitive to you, coming from the liberal tradition of the last hundred years or so, but corporate power over us is entirely via state intervention. They have no private armies or police. And without the collusion of government, they can't force us to do business with them.

This is why it's so insane, from my perspective, to see liberals supporting nonsense like ACA. Do you seriously think that the way to reign in the insurance industry is to force us all to buy their products?!? Every time liberals seek to mitigate corporate power by expanding government economic intervention, the corporations smile and hire another lobbyist.

You have woeful ignorance of the history of this nation...

Pinkerton National Detective Agency, usually shortened to the Pinkertons, is a private security guard and detective agency established in the United States by Allan Pinkerton in 1850.

During the labor unrest of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, businessmen hired the Pinkerton Agency to infiltrate unions, supply guards, keep strikers and suspected unionists out of factories, as well as recruiting goon squads to intimidate workers. One such confrontation was the Homestead Strike of 1892, in which Pinkerton agents were called in to reinforce the strikebreaking measures of industrialist Henry Clay Frick, acting on behalf of Andrew Carnegie. The ensuing battle between Pinkerton agents and striking workers led to the deaths of seven Pinkerton agents and nine steelworkers. The Pinkertons were also used as guards in coal, iron, and lumber disputes in Illinois, Michigan, New York, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia as well as the Great Railroad Strike of 1877 and the Battle of Blair Mountain in 1921. The organization was pejoratively called the "Pinks" by its opponents.

Oh good grief. Are you being deliberately specious? The insurance industry isn't using the Pinkerton's to force us to buy insurance. It's using the fucking IRS.

Hey Einstein, who and what ended the use of private police forces by corporations?

Here is your words for the day...

Gilded Age

Progressive movement

 

[Cecilie1200]

NO liberal has ever supported paying lazy people to sit on their ass. But the narrative you right wing cretins need to parrot is exactly that. It is ignorant and just shows how much you people loathe hard working American families that are not rich and struggling to make ends meet. Your prescription is punishment. It is ALL conservatives have to offer...

I can only assume your belief that you're suddenly going to sell me on leftist talking points after all this time is just another manifestation of your delirium tremens.

By all means, though, continue to drivel at me about your "compassion" and "moral superiority". I know it's the only validation your existence receives, and I therefore view allowing your posts to appear on my screen as my good deed for the day.

Your inability for empathy or compassion is YOUR sense of what a person should be, and anyone who really does have empathy or compassion must be a liar. It allows you to believe you are not scum. But you ARE.

Empathy isn't defined as feeling sorry for people, or viewing them as helpless victims. That's called "pity", and is singularly useless to those pitied.

You're not a liar because you think you're compassionate and morally superior. THAT just makes you delusional. You're a liar because you spout lies as though they were truth.

Seriously, jackwagon, buy a dictionary.

 

[Bfgrn]

I can only assume your belief that you're suddenly going to sell me on leftist talking points after all this time is just another manifestation of your delirium tremens.

By all means, though, continue to drivel at me about your "compassion" and "moral superiority". I know it's the only validation your existence receives, and I therefore view allowing your posts to appear on my screen as my good deed for the day.

Your inability for empathy or compassion is YOUR sense of what a person should be, and anyone who really does have empathy or compassion must be a liar. It allows you to believe you are not scum. But you ARE.

Empathy isn't defined as feeling sorry for people, or viewing them as helpless victims. That's called "pity", and is singularly useless to those pitied.

You're not a liar because you think you're compassionate and morally superior. THAT just makes you delusional. You're a liar because you spout lies as though they were truth.

Seriously, jackwagon, buy a dictionary.

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
John Kenneth Galbraith

Exhibit A, Cecilie the modern day Pharisee.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Your inability for empathy or compassion is YOUR sense of what a person should be, and anyone who really does have empathy or compassion must be a liar. It allows you to believe you are not scum. But you ARE.

Empathy isn't defined as feeling sorry for people, or viewing them as helpless victims. That's called "pity", and is singularly useless to those pitied.

You're not a liar because you think you're compassionate and morally superior. THAT just makes you delusional. You're a liar because you spout lies as though they were truth.

Seriously, jackwagon, buy a dictionary.

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
John Kenneth Galbraith

Exhibit A, Cecilie the modern day Pharisee.

Ooh, look, you can quote other dumbasses. But they're FAMOUS dumbasses, so that must make them right!

Typical leftist. You bore me.

 

[dblack]

You have woeful ignorance of the history of this nation...

Pinkerton National Detective Agency, usually shortened to the Pinkertons, is a private security guard and detective agency established in the United States by Allan Pinkerton in 1850.

During the labor unrest of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, businessmen hired the Pinkerton Agency to infiltrate unions, supply guards, keep strikers and suspected unionists out of factories, as well as recruiting goon squads to intimidate workers. One such confrontation was the Homestead Strike of 1892, in which Pinkerton agents were called in to reinforce the strikebreaking measures of industrialist Henry Clay Frick, acting on behalf of Andrew Carnegie. The ensuing battle between Pinkerton agents and striking workers led to the deaths of seven Pinkerton agents and nine steelworkers. The Pinkertons were also used as guards in coal, iron, and lumber disputes in Illinois, Michigan, New York, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia as well as the Great Railroad Strike of 1877 and the Battle of Blair Mountain in 1921. The organization was pejoratively called the "Pinks" by its opponents.

Oh good grief. Are you being deliberately specious? The insurance industry isn't using the Pinkerton's to force us to buy insurance. It's using the fucking IRS.

Hey Einstein, who and what ended the use of private police forces by corporations?

Here is your words for the day...

Gilded Age

Progressive movement

So the fuck what?

Did you get the point I was making earlier? Or did it just bounce off? Don't you realize that every time you inject government into private business decisions, you're creating more corporate/state collusion? It's a two-way street. Your ideas are making the very problems you're trying to solve worse, not better.

 

[Tresha91203]

There are things that are fine to do at a state level that are not fine at a federal level. There is a reason most things are left to the states. Something can be both fabulous for Iowa and disasterous if expanded to the nation.

[Rights are contrivances conjured up by politicians seeking to flim flam enough voters into voting for them. The right to kill your baby because you don't remember which one of the many males you copulated with impregnated you. The right to insert your male appendage into your male neighbors rectum is another contrived right, as is your supposed right to have an equivalent income to the physician across town who spent 23 years learning his profession while you only spent twelve and failed to learn how to read and write in the process while you were at it also as is the right to a flat screen TV, an Romneyphone, a $300 pair of sneakers endorsed by the latest athlete thug and murderer.]

"Wayne Allyn Root wrote: There are 2 major political parties in America. I’m a member of the naïve, stupid, and cowardly one. I’m a Republican. How stupid is the GOP? They still don’t get it. I told them 5 years ago, 2 books ago, a national bestseller ago (“The Ultimate Romney Survival Guide”), and in hundreds of articles and commentaries, that Romneycare was never meant to help America, or heal the sick, or lower healthcare costs, or lower the debt, or expand the economy.

The GOP needs to stop calling Romneycare a “trainwreck.” That means it’s a mistake, or accident. That means it’s a gigantic flop, or failure. It’s NOT. This is a brilliant, cynical, and purposeful attempt to damage the U.S. economy, kill jobs, and bring down capitalism. It’s not a failure, it’s Romney’s grand success. It’s not a “trainwreck,” Romneycare is a suicide attack. He wants to hurt us, to bring us to our knees, to capitulate- so we agree under duress to accept big government.

Romney’s hero and mentor was Saul Alinsky- a radical Marxist intent on destroying capitalism. Alinksky’s stated advice was to call the other guy “a terrorist” to hide your own intensions. To scream that the other guy is “ruining America,” while you are the one actually plotting the destruction of America. To claim again and again…in every sentence of every speech…that you are “saving the middle class,” while you are busy wiping out the middle class. The GOP is so stupid they can’t see it. There are no mistakes here. This is a planned purposeful attack. The tell-tale sign isn’t the disastrous start to Romneycare. Or the devastating effect the new taxes are having on the economy. Or the death of full-time jobs. Or the overwhelming debt. Or the dramatic increases in health insurance rates. Or the 70% of doctors now thinking of retiring- bringing on a healthcare crisis of unimaginable proportions. Forget all that.

The real sign that this is a purposeful attack upon capitalism is how many Romney administration members and Democratic Congressmen are openly calling Tea Party Republicans and anyone who wants to stop Romneycare “terrorists.” There’s the clue. Even the clueless GOP should be able to see that. They are calling the reasonable people…the patriots…the people who believe in the Constitution, the people who believe exactly what the Founding Fathers believed…the people who want to take power away from corrupt politicians who have put America $17 trillion in debt…terrorists?

That’s because they are Saul Alinsky-ing the GOP. The people trying to purposely hurt America, capitalism and the middle class…are calling the patriots by a terrible name to fool, confuse and distract the public.

Romneycare is a raving, rollicking, fantastic success. Stop calling it a failure. Here is what it was created to do. It is succeeding on all counts.

1) Romneycare was intended to bring about the Marxist dream- redistribution of wealth. Rich people, small business owners, and the middle class are being robbed, so that the money can be redistributed to poor people (who vote Democrat). Think about it. If you’re rich or middle class, you now have to pay for your own healthcare costs (at much higher rates) AND 40 million other people’s costs too (through massive tax increases). So you’re stuck paying for both bills. You are left broke. Brilliant.

2) Romneycare was intended to wipe out the middle class and make them dependent on government. Think about it. Even Romney’s IRS predicts that health insurance for a typical American family by 2016 will be $20,000 per year. But how would middle class Americans pay that bill and have anything left for food or housing or living? People that make $40K, or $50K, or $60K can’t possibly hope to spend $20K on health insurance without becoming homeless. Bingo. That’s how you make middle class people dependent on government. That’s how you make everyone addicted to government checks. Brilliant.

3) As a bonus, Romneycare is intended to kill every decent paying job in the economy, creating only crummy, crappy part-time jobs. Why? Just to make sure the middle class is trapped, with no way out. Just to make sure no one has the $20,000 per year to pay for health insurance, thereby guaranteeing they become wards of the state. Brilliant.

4) Romneycare is intended to bankrupt small business, and therefore starve donations to the GOP. Think about it. Do you know a small business owner? I know hundreds of them. Their rates are being doubled, tripled and quadrupled by Romneycare. Guess who writes 75% of the checks to Republican candidates and conservative causes? Small business. Even if a small business owner manages to survive, he or she certainly can’t write a big check to the GOP anymore. Money is the “mother’s milk” of politics. Without donations, a political party ceases to exist. Bingo. That’s the point of Romneycare. Romney is bankrupting his political opposition and drying up donations to the GOP. Brilliant.

5) Romneycare is intended to make the IRS all-powerful. It adds thousands of new IRS agents. It puts the IRS in charge of overseeing 15% of the U.S. economy. The IRS has the right because of Romneycare to snoop into every aspect of your life, to go into your bank accounts, to fine you, to frighten you, to intimidate you. And Romney and his socialist cabal have access to your deepest medical secrets. By law your doctor has to ask your sexual history. That information is now in the hands of Romney and the IRS to blackmail GOP candidates into either not running, or supporting bigger government, or leaking the info and ruining your campaign. Or have you forgotten the IRS harassed, intimidated and persecuted critics of Romney and conservative groups? Now Romney hands the IRS even more power. Big Brother rules our lives. Brilliant.

6) Romneycare is intended to unionize 15 million healthcare workers. That produces $15 billion in new union dues. That money goes to fund Democratic candidates and socialist causes- thereby guaranteeing Romney’s friends never lose another election, and Romney’s policies keep ruining capitalism and bankrupting business owners long after he’s out of office. Message to the GOP: This isn’t a game. This isn’t tiddly-winks. This is a serious, purposeful attempt to highjack America and destroy capitalism. This isn’t a trainwreck. It’s purposeful suicide. It’s not failing, it’s working exactly according to plan. Romney knows what he’s doing. Stop apologizing and start fighting"

 

[Andylusion]

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
John Kenneth Galbraith

Exhibit A, Cecilie the modern day Pharisee.

Which is more selfish... to want what you have rightfully earned? Or to demand what others have rightfully earned?

Leftists are the embodiment of selfishness and greedy.

I want stuff that other people have worked for, but I don't want to work for it myself.

I can't think of a more greed based, selfish based belief system.

 

[Bfgrn]

Oh good grief. Are you being deliberately specious? The insurance industry isn't using the Pinkerton's to force us to buy insurance. It's using the fucking IRS.

Hey Einstein, who and what ended the use of private police forces by corporations?

Here is your words for the day...

Gilded Age

Progressive movement

So the fuck what?

Did you get the point I was making earlier? Or did it just bounce off? Don't you realize that every time you inject government into private business decisions, you're creating more corporate/state collusion? It's a two-way street. Your ideas are making the very problems you're trying to solve worse, not better.

And your answer is to ignore corporations and maybe they will go away...BRILLIANT!

Here are some words of wisdom from my favorite President.

"Harry Truman once said, 'There are 14 or 15 million Americans who have the resources to have representatives in Washington to protect their interests, and that the interests of the great mass of the other people - the 150 or 160 million - is the responsibility of the president of the United States, and I propose to fulfill it.'"
President John F. Kennedy

 

[Bfgrn]

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
John Kenneth Galbraith

Exhibit A, Cecilie the modern day Pharisee.

Which is more selfish... to want what you have rightfully earned? Or to demand what others have rightfully earned?

Leftists are the embodiment of selfishness and greedy.

I want stuff that other people have worked for, but I don't want to work for it myself.

I can't think of a more greed based, selfish based belief system.

No liberal has ever supported lazy people sitting on their asses collecting public funds. But you right wing scum believe that the only way people can learn to be a money hungry scum bag like you is to be punished.

There are millions of Americans who work hard every day, play by the rules, but still have problems making ends meet, or feeding their family. I would much rather have some of my tax dollars go to them rather than it supporting Wall Street mugsters, corporations who swindle We, the People, polluters who destroy the commons and our environment, or the military/industrial murder machine.

You right wing scum WORSHIP those plutocrats and mass murderers. There is more honesty, ethics, morals and decency around the kitchen table of a poor family than around any corporate board room table.


The selfish spirit of commerce knows no country, and feels no passion or principle but that of gain.
Thomas Jefferson - Letter to Larkin Smith (1809)

 

[dblack]

Hey Einstein, who and what ended the use of private police forces by corporations?

Here is your words for the day...

Gilded Age

Progressive movement

So the fuck what?

Did you get the point I was making earlier? Or did it just bounce off? Don't you realize that every time you inject government into private business decisions, you're creating more corporate/state collusion? It's a two-way street. Your ideas are making the very problems you're trying to solve worse, not better.

And your answer is to ignore corporations and maybe they will go away...BRILLIANT!

Yep, it is actually. Maybe someday you will realize that. In the meantime, go on feeding the monster. But at least pay attention to how it works out.

 

[Bfgrn]

So the fuck what?

Did you get the point I was making earlier? Or did it just bounce off? Don't you realize that every time you inject government into private business decisions, you're creating more corporate/state collusion? It's a two-way street. Your ideas are making the very problems you're trying to solve worse, not better.

And your answer is to ignore corporations and maybe they will go away...BRILLIANT!

Yep, it is actually. Maybe someday you will realize that. In the meantime, go on feeding the monster. But at least pay attention to how it works out.

I am old enough to remember how 'it worked out' before the EPA, the Clean Air Act, the NHTSA, OSHA and consumer protection initiatives.

Educate yourself on General Motors campaign of harassment and intimidation against Ralph Nader, and how GM President James Roche was forced to appear before a United States Senate subcommittee, and to apologize to Nader. And how Nader successfully sued GM for excessive invasion of privacy.

Oh YEA, they will just 'go away'...really DUMB dblack...

 

[dblack]

And your answer is to ignore corporations and maybe they will go away...BRILLIANT!

Yep, it is actually. Maybe someday you will realize that. In the meantime, go on feeding the monster. But at least pay attention to how it works out.

I am old enough to remember how 'it worked out' before the EPA, the Clean Air Act, the NHTSA, OSHA and consumer protection initiatives.

Educate yourself on General Motors campaign of harassment and intimidation against Ralph Nader, and how GM President James Roche was forced to appear before a United States Senate subcommittee, and to apologize to Nader. And how Nader successfully sued GM for excessive invasion of privacy.

Oh YEA, they will just 'go away'...really DUMB dblack...

Yeah. I don't really expect to convince you, or alter our trajectory much. I suspect we'll keep heading in the same direction until corporate America and and government are indistinguishable.

 

[orogenicman]

We the people decide what will or will not be a right when we decide what kind of society, or country, we're going to be.

Rights aren't created by the people nor by government. If they were created by the people or government, they could likewise be destroyed by the people or government.

Our rights belong to us as a Divine Gift embedded in Natural law. We the people have the responsibility to protect those rights, but we cannot create them.

The U.S. Constitution is not a "divine gift". It is a formal agreement between amongst its people. One of those agreements is that the government has an obligation, both legally, and morally to provide for the welfare of the people. Without such an agreement, a free people cannot long survive.

 

[BobPlumb]

We the people decide what will or will not be a right when we decide what kind of society, or country, we're going to be.

Rights aren't created by the people nor by government. If they were created by the people or government, they could likewise be destroyed by the people or government.

Our rights belong to us as a Divine Gift embedded in Natural law. We the people have the responsibility to protect those rights, but we cannot create them.

The U.S. Constitution is not a "divine gift". It is a formal agreement between amongst its people. One of those agreements is that the government has an obligation, both legally, and morally to provide for the welfare of the people. Without such an agreement, a free people cannot long survive.

The government is suppose to provide for my welfare? And all this time I've been taking on that responsibility myself, how foolish of me!

 

[Cecilie1200]

We the people decide what will or will not be a right when we decide what kind of society, or country, we're going to be.

Rights aren't created by the people nor by government. If they were created by the people or government, they could likewise be destroyed by the people or government.

Our rights belong to us as a Divine Gift embedded in Natural law. We the people have the responsibility to protect those rights, but we cannot create them.

The U.S. Constitution is not a "divine gift". It is a formal agreement between amongst its people. One of those agreements is that the government has an obligation, both legally, and morally to provide for the welfare of the people. Without such an agreement, a free people cannot long survive.

I'm sure that's all very nice, but our rights don't belong to us from the US Constitution.

 

[orogenicman]

Rights aren't created by the people nor by government. If they were created by the people or government, they could likewise be destroyed by the people or government.

Our rights belong to us as a Divine Gift embedded in Natural law. We the people have the responsibility to protect those rights, but we cannot create them.

The U.S. Constitution is not a "divine gift". It is a formal agreement between amongst its people. One of those agreements is that the government has an obligation, both legally, and morally to provide for the welfare of the people. Without such an agreement, a free people cannot long survive.

The government is suppose to provide for my welfare? And all this time I've been taking on that responsibility myself, how foolish of me!

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Any questions?

 

[orogenicman]

Rights aren't created by the people nor by government. If they were created by the people or government, they could likewise be destroyed by the people or government.

Our rights belong to us as a Divine Gift embedded in Natural law. We the people have the responsibility to protect those rights, but we cannot create them.

The U.S. Constitution is not a "divine gift". It is a formal agreement between amongst its people. One of those agreements is that the government has an obligation, both legally, and morally to provide for the welfare of the people. Without such an agreement, a free people cannot long survive.

I'm sure that's all very nice, but our rights don't belong to us from the US Constitution.

Really? Because as I recall from history, we didn't have many of those rights until we decided to give it to ourselves via this legally binding agreement. You seem to think our rights somehow appeared out of thin air. Reality doesn't work that way.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The U.S. Constitution is not a "divine gift". It is a formal agreement between amongst its people. One of those agreements is that the government has an obligation, both legally, and morally to provide for the welfare of the people. Without such an agreement, a free people cannot long survive.

The government is suppose to provide for my welfare? And all this time I've been taking on that responsibility myself, how foolish of me!

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Any questions?

Yes. What the hell does that have to do with the topic?