Why do you support Ukraine?

[sartre play]

YES support UKRAINE.

 

[Redfish]

You have some valid points. But bear in mind that the war in Ukraine began not because of Ukraine. Or more correctly, it was not the only reason.

Remember, Russia put forth certain demands on NATO and the US (December 2021) about security policy of the alliance. Basically, it wanted to divide NATO members on 'full' ones and 'limited' ones.

Had the US accepted these demands what that would mean for the US allies and rivalries worldwide? Or if the US allowed Russia to seize control over Ukraine in a matter of weeks?

Again, I return back to my WWI analogy. Of course, the war in Ukraine and the WWI are far different by scale. But the cause of them is the same. They are wars for global alliances and dominance.

And to answer your question why the US is involved in that, the US populace should give an answer on one question - do they want the US to stay one of the world powers or should it 'shrink' to the American continent and become something like Australia in the world affairs?

It seems you prefer the latter case. What the American public in general think will be seen in 2024.

most of your arguments were also used to justify our entry into Viet Nam, and 58,000 americans died for nothing. I do not want that repeated.

 

[Redfish]

YES support UKRAINE.

What is the US interest there? except to keep the bribe payments coming to the Biden family.

 

[Redfish]

You can check this , think Ukraine supports about 40% of the grain that feeds neighboring country's

that will continue if they rejoin Russia, they grew grain for decades when they were part of Russia, there is no justification for the US to provide money, equipment, or troops to Ukraine.

 

[ESay]

most of your arguments were also used to justify our entry into Viet Nam, and 58,000 americans died for nothing. I do not want that repeated.

Yes, the so called domino effect theory. This theory may well be wrong, but to what scale this theory should be reversed?

Okay, Ukraine is a corrupt place on Russian doorstep. Let Russia have it. It is European problem, after all.

The Middle East. Growing influence of Iran. Should it be dealt with or let Tehran have their nuclear program and control of the Strait of Hormuz?

The Far East. Should China and North Korea be countered in their territorial and military ambitions there?

It is all legit questions, don't you think? They are hardly can be answered like 'ah, all that is just silly domino effect theory, nothing will change there after the US leaving'.

 

[Redfish]

Yes, the so called domino effect theory. This theory may well be wrong, but to what scale this theory should be reversed?

Okay, Ukraine is a corrupt place on Russian doorstep. Let Russia have it. It is European problem, after all.

The Middle East. Growing influence of Iran. Should it be dealt with or let Tehran have their nuclear program and control of the Strait of Hormuz?

The Far East. Should China and North Korea be countered in their territorial and military ambitions there?

It is all legit questions, don't you think? They are hardly can be answered like 'ah, all that is just silly domino effect theory, nothing will change there after the US leaving'.

We are not the world's police force or morals police. Unless we or our allies are attacked we should stay out of it. Israel will take care of Iran. We can't stop China from trying to be the world's economic and military power, in fact our current leaders seem to want that to happen, could it be because they are all on the Chinese payroll?

 

[ESay]

We are not the world's police force or morals police. Unless we or our allies are attacked we should stay out of it. Israel will take care of Iran. We can't stop China from trying to be the world's economic and military power, in fact our current leaders seem to want that to happen, could it be because they are all on the Chinese payroll?

The Chinese payroll is a conspiracy theory field. I don't rule out that some in the DC are getting cheques from Beijing. But that is not in the way some people assert it is.

Cooperation with China was paved by the Nixon administration in the mid-70s when it became evident that China's political and economic role will be increasing, and the US sought for a powerful ally to counter the USSR in that part of the world.

And this cooperation benefited the both sides, even after the Soviets collapsed. Cheap goods and services in exchange for 'printed' dollars and bonds being bought on record levels.

But the time has come and the den became too small for two bears.

 

[Redfish]

The Chinese payroll is a conspiracy theory field. I don't rule out that some in the DC are getting cheques from Beijing. But that is not in the way some people assert it is.

Cooperation with China was paved by the Nixon administration in the mid-70s when it became evident that China's political and economic role will be increasing, and the US sought for a powerful ally to counter the USSR in that part of the world.

And this cooperation benefited the both sides, even after the Soviets collapsed. Cheap goods and services in exchange for 'printed' dollars and bonds being bought on record levels.

But the time has come and the den became too small for two bears.

the chinese payroll is not a theory, it has been proven. So you want war with China and Russia at the same time? Do you really think we and Europe could win that?

 

[ESay]

the chinese payroll is not a theory, it has been proven. So you want war with China and Russia at the same time? Do you really think we and Europe could win that?

You understand that I am not an American, right? And my perspective may differ from the people's there.

War with China and Russia at the same time. No, I don't. And that is why I think that the Russia-Ukraine war should be led to a stalemate this year.

 

[Redfish]

You understand that I am not an American, right? And my perspective may differ from the people's there.

War with China and Russia at the same time. No, I don't. And that is why I think that the Russia-Ukraine war should be led to a stalemate this year.

its quite obvious that you are not american, but your views are appreciated. Why should we be sending billions of dollars and weapons to Ukraine? A stalemate is the best answer but by helping one side we are causing the war to continue. I do not understand why many in DC, London, etc want war with Russia. Any ideas?

 

[ESay]

its quite obvious that you are not american, but your views are appreciated. Why should we be sending billions of dollars and weapons to Ukraine? A stalemate is the best answer but by helping one side we are causing the war to continue. I do not understand why many in DC, London, etc want war with Russia. Any ideas?

I don't think that anyone there really wants war with Russia. It is clearly that the world now is moving towards the Cold War 2.0 era, with two main centers of power being the US and China.

Naturally, global and regional alliances are being formed around these centers. The current Russia-Ukraine war is almost a final stage of forming such an alliance in Europe, where NATO is strengthening and expanding its Eastern flanc, and Russia is trying to restore its sphere of influence.

 

[Rigby5]

Yes, the so called domino effect theory. This theory may well be wrong, but to what scale this theory should be reversed?

Okay, Ukraine is a corrupt place on Russian doorstep. Let Russia have it. It is European problem, after all.

The Middle East. Growing influence of Iran. Should it be dealt with or let Tehran have their nuclear program and control of the Strait of Hormuz?

The Far East. Should China and North Korea be countered in their territorial and military ambitions there?

It is all legit questions, don't you think? They are hardly can be answered like 'ah, all that is just silly domino effect theory, nothing will change there after the US leaving'.

The Ukraine is NOT just a corrupt place, that has been stealing Russian oil, murdering ethnic Russians, trying to join NATO, etc., but the Ukraine historically was the almost always historically part of Russia and Kyiv used to be the capital of Russia until the Mongol invasion.
There is no country, culture, history, etc. that is known as the Ukraine.
The Ukraine is known instead ONLY as the disputed borderlands between Poland and Russia.
All the people there are either Polish or Russian.
There is no such thing as a Ukrainian.
And since the ethnic Polish and ethnic Russians do not at all get along, they should not be forced into the same country.

 

[Burgermeister]

If Biden, the Dems, and the media did a 180 tomorrow and said it doesn't make sense to support Ukraine anymore, all these lemmings who say they support Ukraine would do the same.

 

[Rigby5]

You can check this , think Ukraine supports about 40% of the grain that feeds neighboring country's

Wrong.
Russia produces 86 million tons of wheat a year.
The Ukraine produces 25 million tons of wheat a year.

Clearly is it Russia who is feeding that part of the world, not the Ukraine.

 

[Rigby5]

The US absolutely could supply the world with wheat. That too is not our business. We should not need to.

Why should the US feed the world?

The US only produces 50 million tons of wheat annually, so is less than 2/3ds of Russia's production.

 

[Stann]

Wrong.
Russia produces 86 million tons of wheat a year.
The Ukraine produces 25 million tons of wheat a year.

Clearly is it Russia who is feeding that part of the world, not the Ukraine.

Even if those figures are correct, you didn't mention the rest of the agriculture. Ukraine produces far more. Wheat likes cooler climates, little else does.

 

[Rigby5]

You understand that I am not an American, right? And my perspective may differ from the people's there.

War with China and Russia at the same time. No, I don't. And that is why I think that the Russia-Ukraine war should be led to a stalemate this year.

Wrong.
If Russia is not satisfied it has prevented Kyiv from joining NATO or future hostilities, then Moscow will be forced to use nukes.
They have no other choice.
A "stalemate" is unacceptable.

 

[Rigby5]

Even if those figures are correct, you didn't mention the rest of the agriculture. Ukraine produces far more. Wheat likes cooler climates, little else does.

I only looked up wheat, because that is all the Ukraine is known for, but production has nothing to do with the discussion really, since the main agricultural portion of the Ukraine is the eastern ethnic Russian parts anyway.

Here is where the numbers came from:

List of countries by wheat production - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Dadoalex]

This thread is meant for Americans who support Ukraine or I suppose Canadians or Europeans for that matter. Why do you support Ukraine?

Let me explain my position on the war I am neutral in the Russia Ukraine war. As an American I recognize that we invaded dated Iraq … for anyone here who supports Ukraine when we invaded Iraq in 2003 did you support Iraq? If not then what kind of logic do you have? When we went to war in Vietnam to defend south Vietnam from north Vietnam did you support north Vietnam ? because if you didn’t then why are you supporting Ukraine today?


Russia invaded Ukraine. Russia did not invade the United States of America. As an American I have no reason to be against Russia they did not support Saddam Hussein and Iraq in 2003 and they could have quite easily… but they did not they could’ve sent them tons and tons of F-16 jets or they could’ve sent them rifles they could’ve sent them plenty of tanks who knows chemical weapons they could’ve sent them many things that’s the point but they didn’t.


I suspect many people here support Ukraine because their government is telling them to do so. Because they see pictures on the media outlets including right wing and left wing …showing some Ukrainian refugees and children crying. Going by that same logic literally the same logic because we’re all human beings doesn’t matter what country you’re from unless somebody is a bigot. ….What about the grandmas in Iraq that were crying and screaming because of their dead grandchildren when the Americans invaded?

I can already imagine some of the far left wing and even the neo conservative responses

“ oh Saddam Hussein’s not the same thing as Zelenskyy”

Well actually Saddam Hussein had a huge amount of support from Iraqi Christians and from women in Iraq. And look at today Iraq is almost controlled by Iran and there’s many people in Iraq many people in the Arab nation that are against Iran they don’t like seeing women forced to cover their hair. But in Iraq and parts of Iraq that’s an issue now. Wasn’t like that in the 1980s or 1990s when by the way America support Iraq in a fight against Iran.

“ Ukrainian lives matter , CNN tells me this so I support Ukraine, can’t you see what Vladimir Putin is doing to Ukraine. Can’t you see how evil the Russians are. Don’t you see all the pictures of people crying in Ukraine

This is not a logical argument from the neoconservatives and from the left-wing Americans. And here is why …you could look at the photos from the Vietnam war of young Vietnamese babies being killed Vietnamese children crying.

There are individual Americans and individual Russians who have committed war crimes in war…but most Americans and most Russians just like most Ukrainians are good people. This all goes back to one thing you see America has invaded other countries so when Russia invaded Ukraine don’t throw that stone in the glass house.

Finally and here’s something really important to consider. Yes it is true that Russia is not really like Vietnam or Iraq in one singular extraordinary sense. Russia has the most nuclear weapons in the world.

First:
I was against the Iraq invasion because the use the military to force regime change is morally wrong. It is unamerican.
"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,"
The Right of the People of the people, not the imperative of whoever is in charge of the US at the moment.

I became politically aware at 13 in 1968. I can't give you a contemporaneous response on the war since then. I really hadn't formed any political value beyond what I learned from my parents. It was pretty evident from their talk and people on the news that Vietnam was FUBAR. Seeing the government at all levels turning violent to break up non-violent protests was the end for me. We weren't doing the people of Vietnam and good and it was harming the US. Time to go.

Iraq is a sovereign nation with a Democratically elected government. Russia's invasion of its peaceful neighbor poses an immediate threat to all of the Baltic states and a longer term threat to the rest of Europe. That's why I support Iraq.

The better question is why are you undermining western democracy by supporting Putin?

 

[Dadoalex]

According to a general in India as much as 30% of Ukraine is pro Russian . Now that’s a serious thing right there you don’t hear that a lot from the American press.

That's why there are elections. Putin lost. Putin invades.
And you're alright with this?