Zone1 Why do you need gods?

[toobfreak]

Faith is belief without proof by definition.

Well maybe in its generic form, but all religious people are said to have "faith."

Can a person believe in the existence of gods and still refuse to worship?

I suppose anyone can do anything though I cannot imagine believing in God through direct experience or faith yet still refusing to worship, because that brings into question the meaning of "worship." I know God is real, I have faith, I've been to the top of the ladder yet I don't consider myself a "worshiper" in any formal sense. You probably wouldn't even know or think of me as a "religious" person if you knew me. I've just never been much of a believer in structured formal worship because that is the one aspect of religion that I consider to be mainly if not entirely just a construct of MAN. Ironically in many ways, I suppose I encompass many aspects of religion from Christianity to Vedic Science to Buddhism/Sikhism, etc., though I don't delve into Muslim stuff at all.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Well maybe in its generic form, but all religious people are said to have "faith."


I suppose anyone can do anything though I cannot imagine believing in God through direct experience or faith yet still refusing to worship, because that brings into question the meaning of "worship." I know God is real, I have faith, I've been to the top of the ladder yet I don't consider myself a "worshiper" in any formal sense. You probably wouldn't even know or think of me as a "religious" person if you knew me. I've just never been much of a believer in structured formal worship because that is the one aspect of religion that I consider to be mainly if not entirely just a construct of MAN. Ironically in many ways, I suppose I encompass many aspects of religion from Christianity to Vedic Science to Buddhism/Sikhism, etc., though I don't delve into Muslim stuff at all.

Faith is belief without evidence. It is not a virtue. The only reason anyone thinks it is is because the books in which they put their faith tell them it is. Because, of course. Who would have faith in a book that correctly calls faith a childish self delusion?

 

[Meriweather]

But... but.... but.... who's judging or imagining?

Grin. Haven't a clue. Anything else? Hollie, rest assured. You win.

 

[Hollie]

Grin. Haven't a clue. Anything else? Hollie, rest assured. You win.

I'll concede the win. All the dogs in my neighborhood are barking so the gods must be speaking to someone.

 

[Blues Man]

I am noting that more than one of us have noted a relationship with God, that you dismiss. More than one of us have brought up what people have observed. You dismiss that as well. What we are saying is that we have experienced something from what we call the spiritual realm. Instead of listening, you dismiss it out of hand. After all, it never happened to you so certainly it could not have happened to anyone else?

If one person observes something other cannot then it is impossible to take it as anything but dubious.

But you have not addressed the failure of your analogy of gods to dog whistles

And FYI I never denied that people think it happened because they obviously do. I just disagree on the cause

 

[Blues Man]

Well maybe in its generic form, but all religious people are said to have "faith."


I suppose anyone can do anything though I cannot imagine believing in God through direct experience or faith yet still refusing to worship, because that brings into question the meaning of "worship." I know God is real, I have faith, I've been to the top of the ladder yet I don't consider myself a "worshiper" in any formal sense. You probably wouldn't even know or think of me as a "religious" person if you knew me. I've just never been much of a believer in structured formal worship because that is the one aspect of religion that I consider to be mainly if not entirely just a construct of MAN. Ironically in many ways, I suppose I encompass many aspects of religion from Christianity to Vedic Science to Buddhism/Sikhism, etc., though I don't delve into Muslim stuff at all.

Yes religious people have belief without proof.

 

[Meriweather]

But you have not addressed the failure of your analogy of gods to dog whistles

The failure was not the use of an analogy, but the failure to get the point of the analogy. Such is the determination of some to dismiss God and experiences of God.

The insistence of "proof" makes no sense to me, especially from those who claim to be of a scientific mind. First, "proof" requires physical evidence from non-physical beings. Further those of a scientific mind seem to have no recollection of Einstein stating that everything is energy, which means reality isn't real. Einstein noted that reality is merely an illusion, albeit a quite persistent one.

God, on the other hand, is energy and atheists of a scientific mind arguing that God is an illusion is beyond ironic. Their argument should be, God is real, and since reality is an illusion, it follows God is an illusion, the same as we are--if we are in fact "real".

While I am familiar with bits and pieces of science, I am merely an interested onlooker, not an expert. Ding most likely understands Einstein's comment better than I. Hence, I settled for an analogy. With a little thought, anyone could catch the drift of what I was saying. They might not agree with it, but they would understand the point.

 

[toobfreak]

Yes religious people have belief without proof.

How do you prove a belief?
How do you prove an experience you had?
How do you prove a feeling?

When you have an answer to those questions, then you'll have something worth talking about.

 

[rylah]

 

[Blues Man]

The failure was not the use of an analogy, but the failure to get the point of the analogy. Such is the determination of some to dismiss God and experiences of God.

The insistence of "proof" makes no sense to me, especially from those who claim to be of a scientific mind. First, "proof" requires physical evidence from non-physical beings. Further those of a scientific mind seem to have no recollection of Einstein stating that everything is energy, which means reality isn't real. Einstein noted that reality is merely an illusion, albeit a quite persistent one.

God, on the other hand, is energy and atheists of a scientific mind arguing that God is an illusion is beyond ironic. Their argument should be, God is real, and since reality is an illusion, it follows God is an illusion, the same as we are--if we are in fact "real".

While I am familiar with bits and pieces of science, I am merely an interested onlooker, not an expert. Ding most likely understands Einstein's comment better than I. Hence, I settled for an analogy. With a little thought, anyone could catch the drift of what I was saying. They might not agree with it, but they would understand the point.

It was a terrible analogy.

We know why dogs can hear better than people. Can you point to the structure in the brain or body that you say allows people to hear the god whistle?

And I just see circular logic. You cannot prove there are non physical beings.

And in all reality no one knows what gods are.

Matter and energy are the same thing so if as you say a god is energy then it is also matter.

 

[Blues Man]

How do you prove a belief?
How do you prove an experience you had?
How do you prove a feeling?

When you have an answer to those questions, then you'll have something worth talking about.

What you call a feeling is nothing but a pattern of electrical activity in the brain. Your brain is perfectly capable of producing its own stimulation. It's the context that is the key. It is your upbringing that provides you the context to those feelings which you call gods.

We know this already.

 

[Hollie]

How do you prove a belief?
How do you prove an experience you had?
How do you prove a feeling?

When you have an answer to those questions, then you'll have something worth talking about.

Beliefs and feelings are easy to prove / disprove. You may believe or have a ''feeling'' that gravity won't interfere if you step off the roof of a building. Try it. Let us know how that works,

Have you ever considered why people's beliefs, feelings and experiences with gods are a function of their cultural / familial surroundings? How often do westerners, whose cultural / familial history is centered on specific gods have beliefs, feelings and experiences with the gods typically associated with other cultures? Isn't it curious that religious people have beliefs, feelings and experiences with the gods customarily associated with their geographic location?

 

[Meriweather]

We know why dogs can hear better than people.

We do?!!! Wow, that is amazing. I never even considered that! Sigh. Do you even know what an analogy is?

Never mind. Some will not even consider that there are forces outside the usual human experience that some may more attuned to than others. In other words, narrow-minded, but comforted by that insular existence.

 

[Blues Man]

We do?!!! Wow, that is amazing. I never even considered that! Sigh. Do you even know what an analogy is?

Never mind. Some will not even consider that there are forces outside the usual human experience that some may more attuned to than others. In other words, narrow-minded, but comforted by that insular existence.

So tell me what part of the brain is "attuned" to the voices of invisible beings?

And from what you say it seems that lots of people hear these invisible beings so it really should be easy for you to explain how these people do that.

 

[Meriweather]

So tell me what part of the brain is "attuned" to the voices of invisible beings?

Do you recall what Einstein said: Everything is energy. Reality is an illusion, although a persistent one.

What part of the brain perceives energy? The primary visual cortex and the occipital lobes work with perceptions. For those more interested in brain function than God, I would start there. I only have basic knowledge of the brain. Others may be able to help you with your question.

 

[Blues Man]

Do you recall what Einstein said: Everything is energy. Reality is an illusion, although a persistent one.

What part of the brain perceives energy? The primary visual cortex and the occipital lobes work with perceptions. For those more interested in brain function than God, I would start there. I only have basic knowledge of the brain. Others may be able to help you with your question.

Reality is relative like everything else.

And since everything is energy then all of your sensory organs can perceive energy. Light is energy sound is energy objects are energy. So we do perceive energy all the time. Even what we call matter is nothing but energy moving extremely slowly.

So tell me what makes this other energy you speak of different and what enables only some people to perceive it?

 

[Meriweather]

So tell me what makes this other energy you speak of different and what enables only some people to perceive it?

That is where the dog whistle analogy comes into play. If some organs are more sensitive to sound, we can hypothesize, some are more sensitive to energy. It might be compared to explaining green to a blind person. For that blind person, even if there were a green others could perceive, why would it even matter to him, right?

Green is nice for people who can see, but is of no value at all to those who cannot. However, it may be of (short) interest to imagine what it is like for those who can see green. (Also, a waste of time to tell those who perceive green that green does not truly exist, it is just a perception.)

 

[Hollie]

We do?!!! Wow, that is amazing. I never even considered that! Sigh. Do you even know what an analogy is?

Never mind. Some will not even consider that there are forces outside the usual human experience that some may more attuned to than others. In other words, narrow-minded, but comforted by that insular existence.

How special you must be to be attuned to forces outside of human experience and outside of any ability to demonstrate.

How sad for me that I'm narrow-minded for the mere fact of questioning the veracity of such experiences.

 

[Blues Man]

That is where the dog whistle analogy comes into play. If some organs are more sensitive to sound, we can hypothesize, some are more sensitive to energy. It might be compared to explaining green to a blind person. For that blind person, even if there were a green others could perceive, why would it even matter to him, right?

Green is nice for people who can see, but is of no value at all to those who cannot. However, it may be of (short) interest to imagine what it is like for those who can see green. (Also, a waste of time to tell those who perceive green that green does not truly exist, it is just a perception.)

Which organs are more sensitive to this energy that is somehow different from all the other types of energy we can sense?

Once again you attempt to compare a known quantity like color blindness to this magical sense of invisible beings which you cannot prove exists

 

[Meriweather]

How special you must be to be attuned to forces outside of human experience and outside of any ability to demonstrate.

How sad for me that I'm narrow-minded for the mere fact of questioning the veracity of such experiences.

Hollie, we think differently. Because I see green, am I any more special than the blind? In many ways, the blind have the higher rank. There are many people of faith who have no other knowledge or experience. They are of higher rank than the latter.

Do you know what I cannot grasp, but still push toward the possibility: It is all energy, therefore illusion...that there is no reality, although that concept of reality is undeniably persistent.

This being the case, all of us--those who cannot perceive green, who cannot perceive God, who cannot perceive reality as illusion--are in the exact same and equal rank. Am I welcoming you to the club, or am I welcomed into your club? Equal and the same.