Zone1 Why do so many atheists seem to want to attack religion?

[Anomalism]

Why can’t creation be the physical evidence used to prove God’s existence?

It doesn't map the mystery though. That's the ethereal I was talking about.

To be clear, I agree with you.

But, in my opinion, faith is necessary to believe something you can't measure, graph or map in the physical realm.

 

[Votto]

One of the definitions of faith is having complete trust in someone or something. Do you place complete trust in someone or something without having a good reason to do so?

I never questioned that either. My point is, proving something for a fact is different than not knowing for sure even though you have reason to believe it is true.

For example, my favorite verse on faith is this.

Daniel 3:17:18 Our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

To place demands on knowing things we can't know for sure and have no power over is a mistake.

Only God knows everything, but man is finite. So, the only plausible relationship between the two is for man to place his faith at some point in a God who knows better, or there is no real relationship between the two.

It's just common logic.

That is why God requires faith.

 

[ding]

It doesn't map the mystery though. That's the ethereal I was talking about.

To be clear, I agree with you.

But, in my opinion, faith is necessary to believe something you can't measure, graph and map in the physical realm.

God is transcendent. Which means he is beyond anything we can grasp. Beyond energy and matter. God isn’t a thing. God is an action. The closest I can come is that God is mind or consciousness without form. I believe we exist in the mind of God. That our reality is the alternate reality. That everything in our universe is information. Physicists were the first to explore the relationship between mind and matter. So I’m not pulling this from my ass.

 

[Votto]

There seems to be a level of arrogance among most Atheists I have met. It's almost like the "settled science" crowd that is aghast if anyone holds a differing opinion.

I always get a chuckle when I hear the words. "settled science". The very definition of science is to never stop questioning anything. What they mean is don't question us EVER!!

It is akin to those of faith saying there is "settled theology". God has a way of surprising you that you really don't know everything after all. Both are a form of arrogance.

 

[alang1216]

I really don't find it entirely wrong.

We can't prove God exists with hard science any more than we can prove God doesn't. That's the half I think they leave out sometimes.

Lack of evidence is not evidence to the contrary.

They rely on faith too.

Not faith but how you judge the evidence available.

 

[BULLDOG]

Tons of evidence for God. It’s literally all around and in us.

Please present some of your verifiable evidence.

 

[ding]

I never questioned that either. My point is, proving something for a fact is different than not knowing for sure even though you have reason to believe it is true.

For example, my favorite verse on faith is this.

Daniel 3:17:18 Our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

To place demands on knowing things we can't know for sure and have no power over is a mistake.

Only God knows everything, but man is finite. So, the only plausible relationship between the two is for man to place his faith at some point in a God who knows better, or there is no real relationship between the two.

It's just common logic.

That is why God requires faith.

I have faith that good comes from bad.

 

[Anomalism]

Which means he is beyond anything we can grasp.

Exactly.

We can feel God but can't see God. We can't measure God. We can't map spirituality, so it exists outside of science. That requires faith.

 

[ding]

Please present some of your verifiable evidence.

The CMB and the structure of matter.

 

[Votto]

I have faith that good comes from bad.

I have faith that God can turn bad into good.

 

[Anomalism]

Not faith but how you judge the evidence available.

Atheists are not judging the evidence available when they say no God exists. They are judging lack of evidence.

 

[ding]

Exactly.

We can feel God but can't see God. We can't measure God. We can't map spirituality, so it exists outside of science. That requires faith.

But science can be used to study what he created. God can be known through the light of human reason.

 

[BULLDOG]

The CMB and the structure of matter.

Continue

 

[Anomalism]

But science can be used to study what he created. God can be known through the light of human reason.

God can only be felt and inferred, not physically measured. True?

 

[JanetTheGreat]

Atheism is not a monolith, so I'll acknowledge that before it even goes there.

Many though, in my opinion, behave just the way I'm describing. Atheism sometimes feels less like its own worldview and more like a reaction to religion; a counter-brand built against theology rather than something for itself. If faith brings peace and meaning to so many decent people, why disrupt that? Why try to hurt people with what you believe to be a devastating truth? Shouldn't the truth of its devastation trigger your empathy to restrain yourself? Is the pursuit of being right worth more than compassion? Can skepticism coexist with kindness, or does it always have to provoke conflict?

Could we maybe respect belief without surrendering critical thought? What do you think? Is there a middle ground, or is this a cultural war destined to rage forever?

The obsession to prove theists wrong isn’t bravery. It’s insecurity framed as enlightenment, and tribalism framed as skepticism. Why chain others with the burden of your disbelief? If your cause is truth, why inflict suffering in its name? Maybe some people need their faith to survive. Maybe your relentless assault only feeds their fear and resentment.

So what are you really fighting for?

In my opinion, Atheism is a reaction to the abuses and gaslighting that has come out of organized religion. Atheism in itself, is a religion - as they are adamant there is no God, etc. I am not an atheist, nor am I a Christian, both sides of this argument are full of the same type of behavior towards one another. Nothing productive is done by putting the two in a room and having them argue endlessly, walking away with no lesson at the end.

I've seen a ton of these videos where Christians, Atheists and others argue about God, etc, and I walk away with no better conclusion than the one that I already have.

 

[ding]

I have faith that God can turn bad into good.

I don’t know that God actively does that. I believe it is because God imbued his creation with his attributes. That it is a natural outcome from our desire for good.

 

[ding]

God can only be felt and inferred, not physically measured. True?

True. That’s an artifact of being transcendent. But that doesn’t mean he can’t be known.

 

[Anomalism]

I've seen a ton of these videos where Christians, Atheists and others argue about God, etc, and I walk away with no better conclusion than the one that I already have.

That's because you're being honest with yourself.

 

[Votto]

I don’t know that God actively does that. I believe it is because God imbued his creation with his attributes. That it is a natural outcome from our desire for good.

Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

 

[Anomalism]

True. That’s an artifact of being transcendent. But that doesn’t mean he can’t be known.

He can't be measured though, and science requires measurement and mapping. That means God does not exist inside the realm of science. That's not the same as saying God doesn't exist though.