Zone1 Why Can God Forgive Me For Being Angry With Him When I Can't?

[Meriweather]

Thank you but I'm still only getting it as the ideal of all animals, including humans, living peacefully together. That is intuitively impossible and isn't an ideal to be sought in my opinion. Maybe for vegans? Is it any different from an Anteater finding an ant's nest for dinner?

A sticky situation? I'm not trying to make light of the question but isn't the lamb (gazelle) intended by your god to be the lion's lunch?

I think the message needs to be conveyed in some other way instead of the lion and the lamb.

I read (and take) it all as metaphoric.

 

[Donald H]

I read (and take) it all as metaphoric.

Of course and I do too. But metaphors have meanings and are purposeful.
And so from my atheist perspective the lion and the lamb are no different from the leach that's applied to the wound. Or somebody else offered mosquitos that bite.

Will the leach, the mosquito, people who kill them, the lamb, the infection, and the leach cut it out?

I separate the lion and the lamb from the others, until there's a requirement to face the facts as understood by an atheist.

Make any sense to you? I think the lion and the lamb metaphor made a lot more sense before Darwin.

 

[Cougarbear]

Of course and I do too. But metaphors have meanings and are purposeful.
And so from my atheist perspective the lion and the lamb are no different from the leach that's applied to the wound. Or somebody else offered mosquitos that bite.

Will the leach, the mosquito, people who kill them, the lamb, the infection, and the leach cut it out?

I separate the lion and the lamb from the others, until there's a requirement to face the facts as understood by an atheist.

Make any sense to you? I think the lion and the lamb metaphor made a lot more sense before Darwin.

I've already explained this to you. Enough of the dumb atheist responses. It makes you look unintelligent and a very small person.

 

[Meriweather]

Of course and I do too. But metaphors have meanings and are purposeful.
And so from my atheist perspective the lion and the lamb are no different from the leach that's applied to the wound. Or somebody else offered mosquitos that bite.

Will the leach, the mosquito, people who kill them, the lamb, the infection, and the leach cut it out?

I separate the lion and the lamb from the others, until there's a requirement to face the facts as understood by an atheist.

Make any sense to you? I think the lion and the lamb metaphor made a lot more sense before Darwin.

The difference is looking at the passages taking the intent of the author(s) into account, who were presenting a spiritual life using animals with whom traits people living in those times were familiar. In the spiritual life, all animals at enmity with one another dwelt in such peace even an innocent child can lead them--which is our aim for spiritual life.

 

[Cougarbear]

The difference is looking at the passages taking the intent of the author(s) into account, who were presenting a spiritual life using animals with whom traits people living in those times were familiar. In the spiritual life, all animals at enmity with one another dwelt in such peace even an innocent child can lead them--which is our aim for spiritual life.

That went over his atheist head…

 

[Donald H]

The difference is looking at the passages taking the intent of the author(s) into account, who were presenting a spiritual life using animals with whom traits people living in those times were familiar. In the spiritual life, all animals at enmity with one another dwelt in such peace even an innocent child can lead them--which is our aim for spiritual life.

I see your point but I don't see 'enmity' as the right word. The 'preyed' and the 'preyed upon' wouldn't have that kind of feelings for each other in my opinion. And that's my whole point.

The emotions felt by people imagining or even observing the lion and the lamb lying down together, would be wrongly directed.

I see and you too should see a lion licking a lamb's face, entirely differently from the way the parable intends it to be viewed.

Am I right about you too?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

You see I'm supposed to go to a baseball game this evening and see a friend that I rarely ever see anymore.


Last night there was a humongous chance of rain so I started getting extremely angry with God that that probably wouldn't happen but now I see sunshine everywhere and I am currently bathed in guilt for how I acted.


I already told Him that I was sorry and I know that He forgives me but I don't feel like I can be forgiven for that. I just have a really hard time with forgiving myself. Moreso than being able to forgive others. Either way no matter what would have happened I acted like a complete and utter idiot last night.

People whose focus in on THEMSELVES are the most miserable.

Get over yourself and be aware of the pain others are going thru

If your focus is inward, you will be miserable. If your focus is outward you will be happy. The SELF needs to die

 

[Cougarbear]

People whose focus in on THEMSELVES are the most miserable.

Get over yourself and be aware of the pain others are going thru

If your focus is inward, you will be miserable. If your focus is outward you will be happy. The SELF needs to die

If all you focus on is pain, whether it’s yours or others, your life will be one of pain too. You are who you hang around. If you want to have a good marriage, hang around those who have good marriages and learn from them or each other. You want success in business, hang around people successful in business. Have a balanced life. And, you better focus on yourself to be better as well. People follow leaders.

 

[Meriweather]

I see your point but I don't see 'enmity' as the right word. The 'preyed' and the 'preyed upon' wouldn't have that kind of feelings for each other in my opinion. And that's my whole point.

An enemy is something that harms one. The lamb sees the lion as something that would harm it. Use 'prey' if you wish. The harm is the same. Transferring this to the analogy I use....gentleness "sees" anger as something that harms it. Instead, see the two as able to work together. Anger means no harm to gentleness; gentleness can work with resolving what it was that caused the anger.

 

[Donald H]

An enemy is something that harms one.

Quite true about enemies, but you used the word, 'enmity' and that isn't correct for animals, or even humans IMO. See the meaning.

The lamb sees the lion as something that would harm it. Use 'prey' if you wish. The harm is the same. Transferring this to the analogy I use....gentleness "sees" anger as something that harms it.

There's no anger involved my friend, and that applies to both the preyed and the preyed upon.

Instead, see the two as able to work together.

In fact the two are working together, albeit perhaps not by choice on the part of the lamb.

Anger means no harm to gentleness; gentleness can work with resolving what it was that caused the anger.

There is no anger involved in any of the examples. But if we think on the human level of humans vs. humans, anger can then be a possible motive. eg. a person can lie down with his/her enemy)

Otherwise, not even anger of the cat that torments the mouse to death.

It's likely that the parable on the lion and the lamb lying down together, was invented by someone who didn't understand everything we now know and accept.

Not to suggest that it's not effective for teaching children something. I'll leave it to you to explain what is being taught.

Would the teaching have any effect on deer hunters who kill when their motive is not to eat the animal? (some) ( I did it)

 

[Meriweather]

There's no anger involved my friend, and that applies to both the preyed and the preyed upon.

Metaphor....

 

[Donald H]

Metaphor....

A single word reply doesn't convey your meaning very well.

What message is in the metaphor for children? Or adults who think on a child's level?
And you didn't answer my question on the deer hunter. If he doesn't really enjoy eating the animal then does he feel anger or does he perhaps feel joy?

My comment on adults thinking like children is not meant to insult anybody. It's only intended to give our discussion a deeper meaning on lions and lambs lying down together.

(or mosquitos biting humans and humans trying to kill them)

 

[Meriweather]

A single word reply doesn't convey your meaning very well.

What message is in the metaphor for children? Or adults who think on a child's level?
And you didn't answer my question on the deer hunter. If he doesn't really enjoy eating the animal then does he feel anger or does he perhaps feel joy?

My comment on adults thinking like children is not meant to insult anybody. It's only intended to give our discussion a deeper meaning on lions and lambs lying down together.

(or mosquitos biting humans and humans trying to kill them)

Analogies always fail at some point. Basically the pictures of peace presented in the Bible, and Jesus being both lamb and lion, spoke to me. They don't for you, and that's okay, too.

 

[Donald H]

Analogies always fail at some point. Basically the pictures of peace presented in the Bible, and Jesus being both lamb and lion, spoke to me. They don't for you, and that's okay, too.

Well I'm glad that you feel it's o.k.

I'm sorry to have to say that all Christian beliefs can't be o.k. with me. Maybe none of your honest beliefs fall in that category.

None come to mind for me, as long as I'm feeling the spirit of friendliness and agreement. That's why we couldn't accomplish anything with Ding being a part of the discussion.

 

[Cougarbear]

Quite true about enemies, but you used the word, 'enmity' and that isn't correct for animals, or even humans IMO. See the meaning.

There's no anger involved my friend, and that applies to both the preyed and the preyed upon.

In fact the two are working together, albeit perhaps not by choice on the part of the lamb.

There is no anger involved in any of the examples. But if we think on the human level of humans vs. humans, anger can then be a possible motive. eg. a person can lie down with his/her enemy)

Otherwise, not even anger of the cat that torments the mouse to death.

It's likely that the parable on the lion and the lamb lying down together, was invented by someone who didn't understand everything we now know and accept.

Not to suggest that it's not effective for teaching children something. I'll leave it to you to explain what is being taught.

Would the teaching have any effect on deer hunters who kill when their motive is not to eat the animal? (some) ( I did it)

I’m going to address “enmity.” Jesus Christ has been given enmity between Satan and Mankind. Satan can deceive and hurt us. But, the Lord’s atonement will destroy any sin of mankind obliterating the sins and deceptions of Satan. In the end, Satan will be thrust down never to tempt us again. We will then be a peaceful people awaiting our resurrection and exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom in Heaven.

 

[Meriweather]

Well I'm glad that you feel it's o.k.

I'm sorry to have to say that all Christian beliefs can't be o.k. with me. Maybe none of your honest beliefs fall in that category.

What I'm not able to get across to you are getting opposites to align and work together.

 

[ding]

Well I'm glad that you feel it's o.k.

I'm sorry to have to say that all Christian beliefs can't be o.k. with me. Maybe none of your honest beliefs fall in that category.

None come to mind for me, as long as I'm feeling the spirit of friendliness and agreement. That's why we couldn't accomplish anything with Ding being a part of the discussion.

Because I point out your insincerity, disingenuousness and passive aggressive BS.

Yes, you and I will never get along.

 

[Cougarbear]

What I'm not able to get across to you are getting opposites to align and work together.

I’ve been a member of our town’s ministerial association for years. We find areas we can work on like homelessness and other community needs. Sometimes we have ministers who get political. But most of the time we ignore it.

 

[Donald H]

What I'm not able to get across to you are getting opposites to align and work together.

You should have asked me and I would have told you that I have no interest in doing that. You and I aren't opposites now and that goes to prove that it wasn't necessary.

The person to whom you're hesitating to mention will never be capable of working with an atheist.

Is it time to permit him to take part, or do we have some outstanding issues left that you feel need addressing?

I have none that can't be discussed with him too.

 

[Meriweather]

You should have asked me and I would have told you that I have no interest in doing that. You and I aren't opposites now and that goes to prove that it wasn't necessary.

I wasn't discussing people. I was discussing emotions and how it is possible for them to work together instead of remaining poles apart.