| Why the Mormon Church is not the TRUE churchJesus Christ started? Robert Millet is part of the Church Public Affairs (Manager of Outreach andInterfaith Relations)
Millet is the Mormon churches spokesman to try and make peace withChristians, he currently does public tours called dialogues between anEvangelical and Mormon. Millet states, “much of the misunderstanding in modern Christendomstems from a “vocabulary issue” -- the need to educate ourselves as towhat our friends mean.” I agree, the meaning of what is said can bedifferent than the words. The meaning can alsobe more important then the words said. We will consider the LDSchurch own words and statements; themeaning becomes obvious.
In this article the main differences between true Christianity and what thereligion of Mormonism proposes as the truth will be laid out for anyone tounderstand. The choice of which is true will be their own.
I want to make it clear for both Mormons and Christians how divided we areon the essentials of the Christian faith, that is based on the teachings ofJesus Christ and His Apostles. My intent is not to make Mormons angry (it maybe unavoidable) but to have them understandthe basic differences and why we do not accept their religion as authenticChristianity. I will only quote from their officials; their president’s,prophet's and apostles.
We will concentrate on only three things: 1) The nature of God. 2) JesusChrist, and 3) the way of Salvation. With their own quotes next to the Bibleand the explanations of the text it will be proven they have a very differentmessage than the Christian church does from the Bible. A message that is not compatible at allwith Jesus Christ, nor with the apostles.
1) The Nature of God
Mormons teach there are many Gods and that man himself can become a god.Mormon teaching- “Question- Are there more Gods than one? Answer- Yes,many.1 Cor 8:5” (Catechism, by Elder John Jaques, chapter 4, page 13.)
The Bible teaches there is only ONE true God who eternally exists beforeanything was made and that all other gods are false.
MORMONISM -“You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, andto be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you”(Founder and Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith, The Journal ofDiscourses, Vol. VI, page 4)
Their own prophet taught that men who are created by God can become God. Ofcourse their concept of God is not the same as the bible because the Bibleteaches God always existed as God, does not change, so no creature created byhim can become Him.
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sitsenthroned in yonder heavens ( Founder and Mormon Prophet JosephSmith, April 6, 1844, The Journal of Discourses, Vol. VI,page 3
“...He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all,dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did...” (History ofthe Church, Vol. 6, p. 305-306).
The Bible- “Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of theincorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man (Romans 1:22-23)
They are teaching that God was a man “as we are now” and then achieved hisexalted rank. So God the Father was not always the Father, but becamethe Father (see John 17)
“Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint andsinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into itwith a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him.(Second President and Prophet Brigham Young, April 9, 1852, recorded inThe Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50).
“As man is, god once was; as God is, man may become.”(LorenzoSnow the fifth President of the Church, LDS Church News, Jan. 16, 1983,p. 14)
“In the Heaven where our spirits were born, there are many Gods, each oneof whom has his own wife or wives which were given to him previous to hisredemption, while yet in his mortal state” (The Seer, by ApostleOrson Pratt, Vol. 1, March 1853, No. 3, page 37)
“The Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth” (“Bookof Abraham,”4:1, in The Pearl of Great Price, by the Prophet JosephSmith, page 38.
“The head God called together the Gods and sat in grand council tobring forth the world.”
“I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I havepreached on the subject of deity, it has been on the plurality of Gods…thedoctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any otherdoctrine.” (founder J. Smith History of the church Vol.6 pp.308,474)
The founder Smith was so convinced of his Godhood that he declared “MyFather worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same;and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he mayobtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then takea higher exaltation, and I will TAKE HIS PLACE, and thereby become EXALTEDMYSELF.” (LDS “Founder” and “Prophet” Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses,Vol. 6, p. 4, 1844, emphasis added)
“In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods;and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it”(sermon by Founder and Prophet Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844, recorded in TheJournal of Discourses, Vol. VI, page 5)
Joseph Smith said “God himself was once as we are now, and is anexalted man.” “…I say, if you were to see him today, you would see himlike a man in form- like yourselves, in all the person, image and very form asa man…” (founder Joseph Smith history of the Church vol.6 p.305 also teachings ofthe prophet J.Smith p.345)
“It [Mormonism] is the only system of religion known in heaven or onearth that can EXALT A MAN TO THE GODHEAD, and this it will do to all thosewho embrace its laws and faithfully observe its precepts.” (LDS “Prophet”and second president Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, p. 251, 1863)
Spencer W. Kimball, the twelfth president of the church stated: “Brethren,225,000 of you are here tonight. 1 suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. Thereseems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has provedthat he knows how to do it. 1 think he could make, or probably have us helpmake, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000” (The Ensign, p.80, Nov. 1975).
Brigham Young the second president of the church, “How manyGods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were noGods and worlds…”(Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, vol. 7p.333).
What Mormon can believe in only one God? If they did, they would go againsttheir founder, the prophets, presidents, apostles and all the teachings intheir church.They would not have the testimony of their founder Joseph Smithbeing a prophet.
The Bible- Isaiah 44:6 “Beside Me there is no God”
Psalm 90:2 “Before the mountains were brought forth, orever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting toeverlasting, thou art God”
Deuteronomy 33:27 “The eternal God”
Deuteronomy 6:4 “our God is one LORD”
Deuteronomy 4:35,39 “Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightestknow that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.v.39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORDhe is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.”
Isaiah 44:6, 8 “Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and hisredeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and besideme there is no God. Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told theefrom that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there aGod beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isaiah 45:5 “I am the LORD, and there is none else, there isno God beside Me”
Isaiah 45:18 “For thus says the Lord, Who created the heavens, Whois God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did notcreate it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord, and thereis no other.”
Isaiah 45:21 “and there is no God else beside me; a justGod and a Savior; there is none beside me.
God says that he alone is God, not just over this world but in all thingsHe alone created. He is the Eternal One (“I AM”, Exodus 3:14). No onecould or ever will be able to become deity or God.
Psalm 86:10 “For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thouart God alone.
I Chronicles 17:26 “Thou alone art God”
2 Samuel 7:22 “O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither isthere any God beside thee”
1 Kings 8:60 “the LORD is God, and that there is none else.
ISAIAH 46:9 “For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, andthere is none like me.”
This means that none become God like the gods before them
John 17:3 “And this is life eternal, that they might knowthee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”
1 Timothy 2:5 “ For there is one God, and one mediatorbetween God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
2) Jesus
This brings us to the next Mormon distinctive that differs from orthodoxChristianity – the Jesus of Mormonism. Mormon theology widely differs from Christianityon this subject, they teach that a “Heavenly Father” and “HeavenlyMother” begat spirits, Jesus was born in heaven with many other spiritbrothers-including Lucifer. The Bible does not teach of a mother (or Father andson as a family) but the Mormon church does.
“This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmedin plainness by the First Presidency of the Church (Mormon Doctrine,Apostle McConkie 1979, page 516)
Milton R. Hunter, who served in the First Council of the Seventy, confirms:“The stupendous truth of the existence of a Heavenly Mother, aswell as a Heavenly Father, became established facts in Mormon theology”(The Gospel Through the Ages, 1958, p.98).
Their own president should settle the matter-Hinckley was asked on aprime-time Australian TV broadcast if his church taught that God the Fatherhas a wife, he replied, “I don't know, but I suppose so. As we have aFather I assume we have a mother.” Pressed by interviewer David Ransom,Hinckley acknowledged: “Yes. Well we...Yes, we have a mother in heaven”(From a transcript of the 9 November 1997 Compass TV program, AustralianBroadcast Company president Hinckley)
“In the pre-mortal spirit life Jesus, Lucifer, and all of us were thespirit children of God and His wives” (Gospel Through the Ages, pp.15, 93-99; Journal of Discourses, Vol. XI, p. 122). Apostle Bruce McConkiewrote, “The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (MormonDoctrine, p. 129.) This agrees with Joseph F. Smith, sixth president of theLDS Church, “Among the spirit children of Elohim, the first-born wasand is Jehovah, or Jesus Christ, to whom all others are juniors” (GospelDoctrine, p. 70).
According to Joseph F. Smith, sixth president of the LDS Church, “Amongthe spirit children of Elohim, the first-born was and is Jehovah, or JesusChrist, to whom all others are juniors,” (Gospel Doctrine, p. 70).Joseph F. Smith, Jr., made this plain in his book,: “The birth of theSavior was a natural occurrence unattended with any degree ofmysticism, and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh aswell as in the spirit”( Religious Truths Defined, page 44)
In the book of Mormon, Alma 7:10 Jesus was born at Jerusalem. In Micah 5:2;Luke 2:4 the Bible states it was Bethlehem. The Mormon’s argument is that“Jerusalem” refers to the general vicinity, but in I Nephi 1:3 itis called a “city.” Bethlehem and Jerusalem are two different citiesaccording to the Bible. So they have a Jesus also born in a different city.
Doctrine and Covenants 93:21-23 teaches that, “Christ, the Firstborn,was the mightiest of all the spirit children of the Father.” Joseph F.Smith the sixth prophet of the LDS Church said this of Jesus, “Among thespirit children of Elohim, the first-born was and is Jehovah, or Jesus Christ,to whom all others are juniors,” (Gospel Doctrine, p. 70).
The Mormons Jesus is created, the Bibles Jesus is the creator. Jesus cannotbe both created and non- created, the brother of the devil and the creator ofthe Devil. He is either one or the other.
The Bible- Tells all those from the time of Jesus onward toour day who Jesus ACTUALLY is- 1 Timothy 3:16 tells us “God wasmanifested in the flesh.” This goes along with various other passages suchas Romans 9:5 “According to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all,the eternally blessed God. Amen
In Hebrews 1:10 The Father speaking of the Son, “And, Thou, Lord, inthe beginning has laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens arethe works of your hands... and they shall be changed: but thou art thesame” (quoting Psalm 102:25).
John 1:3 “All things were made through Him, and withoutHim nothing was made that was made.”
Colossians 1:16-17 “For by Him all things were created that arein heaven and that are on earth,
Revelation 1:7-8 “Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eyewill see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth willmourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. “I am the Alpha and the Omega, theBeginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is tocome, the Almighty.”
In conclusion on this topic. What kind of God became flesh? For the Mormons-none. Jesus is an angel that became a man, and was exalted to become a God.
The Bible- “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Donot be carried about with various and strange doctrines.” (Hebrews13:8-9)
The Jesus of Mormonism is not the Jesus of the Bible. They cannot be bothcreated and non- created.
3) The Gospel Now we come the most important part of this article. I’m speaking thetruth in love, there is nothing more that I would desire than to see Mormonsunderstand the gospel that is the Bible.
Galatians 1:8-9: ”But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preachany other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him beaccursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, ifanyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you havereceived, let him be accursed.”
Paul states in 2 Corinthians11:3-4 “But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by hiscraftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is inChrist. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus(that’s what Mormons have) whom we have not preached, or if you receive a differentspirit (that’s what Mormons have) which you have notreceived, or a different gospel (that’s whatMormons have) which you have not accepted-- you may well put up with it!”
Mormonism
“The Sectarian Dogma of justification by Faith alone has exercised aninfluence for evil since the early days of Christianity” (The Articlesof Faith, by Apostle James E. Talmage, 1899 edition, page 120. In his1925 edition of The Articles of Faith, on page 479, he calls “justificationby faith alone” “this pernicious doctrine.”)
“As with the proposal of Lucifer in the preexistence to save allmankind, so with the doctrine of salvation by grace alone, without works, asit is taught in modern Christendom -- both concepts are false. There is nosalvation in either of them. They both come from the same source; they are notof God” (What Think Ye of Salvation by Grace p. 49; Robert Millet,p. 73)
Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth prophet, explained “Our EternalFather would have every soul saved if that were feasible. Salvation,however, is based on merit and obedience to divine law and therefore is onlyobtained through compliance with divine commandments” (Nov. 1965, p.962).
George Q. Cannon speaking of Joseph Smith “If we get oursalvation, we shall have to pass by him, if we enter our glory, it will bethrough the authority he has received. We cannot get around him” (George Q.Cannon, 1988 Melchezedik guide, p.142)
2 Nephi 25:23 by grace we are saved, after all we can do.”
“Therefore, acting alone, the grace of Christ is notsufficient for salvation. The works of man -- the ordinances of salvation,the deeds of service and acts of charity and mercy -- are necessary forsalvation...” (By Grace Are We Saved: The necessity of God'sgrace in addition to man's good works, 1989 ed., p. 70)
Robert. Millet is the one who is going around in discussion with GregJohnson telling people that we can get along and that believe the same thing.Here he calls being saved by faith through grace a doctrine of the Devil. “Aswith the proposal of Lucifer in the preexistence to save all mankind, so withthe doctrine of salvation by grace alone, without works, as it is taught inmodern Christendom -- both concepts are false. There is no salvation in eitherof them. They both come from the same source; they are not of God’ (WhatThink Ye of Salvation by Grace p. 49; cf. Robert Millet, p. 73).
Marion Romney (LDS First Presidency) said, “This Church is the ensignon the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, thetruth, and the life” (Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119).
“So hear it all ye ends of the earth; if you ever enter into the kingdomof God, it is because Joseph Smith let you go there. This will apply to Jewsand Gentiles, to the bond and free; to friends and foes; no man or woman inthis generation will get a resurrection and be crowned without Joseph sayingso. (Second president Brigham Young, Conference held on October 8, 1854)
The Bible -
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [itis] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast”(Ephesians 2:4–9).
“being justified freely by His grace through the redemptionthat is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:24). V.28 “Therefore weconclude that a man is justified by faith apart from thedeeds of the law”
“But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yeadoubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of theknowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of allthings, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ, And be found inhim, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that whichis through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith”(Philippians 3:7–9).
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according tohis mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewingof the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ ourSaviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirsaccording to the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:5–7).
The Bible speaks of the grace of God through faith to be saved- there is noOTHER way.
As Robert Millet stated “...if everything we teach and believe isin the Bible, we wouldn't have needed a Joseph Smith, a Book ofMormon, a Doctrines and Covenants or a restoration!”(43 minute video, Source: http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/49068/6036%20)
Their spokesman for Church Public Affairs believes that the Bible is insufficient, and they defendthis position today- nothing has changed.
The Bible-Jesus said in Jn.17:8 “I have given them your words you have given me.”
Jesus said “my sheep hear my voice, they will flee from thevoice of stranger.”
John 8 “He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do nothear, because you are not of God.”
The whole Old Testament testifies that there is only one God who madeeverything that exists. The whole New Testament testifies that Jesus Christ isthat God who came in human flesh. No matter how one tries to reform or adjustMormon doctrine it does not make it Christian doctrine. Softening the Mormonposition on these 3 points does not make it authentic and can only bring intoquestion anyone’s honesty in their motives. If the concept of many gods isnot abandoned, if the belief that Jesus is a spirit creature is not abandonedthen the gospel that centers on Jesus Christ cannot be the true gospel. And ifit is not the true authentic one, then it cannot save no matter how sincere aperson is. |
1) The Nature of God - Ninja007 seems to concentrate on only one subject and that is that we believe there are more than one God. To understand The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint perspective on this topic one needs to understand that when God says to us that there are no other God beside me or "beside me there is no God", what God is conveying is that he is the supreme ruler of this world and the supreme ruler in all His kingdom. Thus beside Him, there is no other supreme ruler in all his kingdom. He is not saying that there is no such thing as other gods but that to us here on this earth and everywhere else in his kingdom he is the supreme God and He is over all. Now let me prove to you from the Bible whether there are other gods that exist or not.
Psalms 82:1
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
From the Bible we learn that God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; and he judgeth among the gods. WHAT?!? He judgeth among the gods? This is saying that there are other gods and that they are plural! How can that be if there is only one God? Is the Bible contradicting itself? NO!!! If you understand that there is only one true God who rules and reigns over us and no other, even though there are other gods then this makes sense. God is the one presiding God over us and there is no other God who presides over us than He even though there are those that are gods you can understand what God means when he says He is the one true God.
Psalms 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
What?!? The God who said there are no other Gods beside Him is telling us we are gods? How can that be? Blasphemy!!!!! God himself, who claims that there are no other gods is telling us, his children, that we ourselves are gods!!!!! How can that be? Is God a liar? It seems apparent that there are other gods in existence according to the Bible!!!! But... there is still only one God who presides and rules and reigns over the earth and all his kingdom!!
When Jesus claimed that he was the Son of God, the Jews took up stones to stone him for blasphemy because he, being a man, claimed that he was the very Son of God! Jesus' reply was as follows:
John 10:31-36
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
What is this??? Jesus himself said that we are gods? How can that be? Is this not going against the Old Testament teaching of Isaiah which says, "Beside there is no God"? Is Jesus a false teacher??? Is Jesus a Mormon? He is teach of multiple gods!!! How dare He? Maybe what Jesus is saying is that there are many gods but only one true God who rules and reigns over this earth and his kingdom. It has to be taken within context!!! The Apostle Paul put it this way:
1 Corinthians 8:4-6
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Here the Apostle Paul, after telling us that idols are nothing, tells us that there are those that are called gods whether in heaven or on earth (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us (who are within the kingdom of God on this earth) there is but one God, the Father of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things.
So are there other gods? YES! Even Jesus himself said as much. Are they the one true God who rules over the earth and kingdom in we reside? NO!!! There is only one God who rules over this earth and over all His kingdom!!!
Now that we see that there are other gods whether in heaven or on earth, what is the capacity of these gods? Can they progress to become like their Father in heaven? Jesus himself, commanded all of us with the following command:
Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Here Jesus is commanding us to be perfect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect. Would Jesus give us a commandment that we could never obey? Is commanding us to to do something we can never do? Or, is it possible that the omnipotent God himself can make his children whom he has declared to be gods to become perfect like Himself? Is Jesus lying to us or telling us the truth? We believe that Jesus is telling us to become what is possible for us to become!!
John the Beloved Apostle of Jesus Christ has taught us the following:
John 17: 20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Here John tells us that Jesus taught that we can be made perfect in one even as Jesus himself is one with the Father. How dare those Mormons preach that we can become perfect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect and that we can become perfect in one even as Jesus is perfect in one with the Father. If we were to become perfect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect, would we not also be Gods? Maybe there is space outside of God's kingdom where others can have a kingdom of their own. Maybe this is how God the Father Himself came to be a God. These were the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith. Personally, I don't see how they contradict the Bible if others can have an entire kingdom of their own.
2. Jesus Christ - Here Ninja007 concentrates primarily on the premortal Jesus and claims somehow that he cannot be God. In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we believe that all of us who are here on earth pre-existed as the spirit children of our Father and Mother in heaven. We believe that God, from the beginning created us male and female and that it was God's will that we leave our mother and father and marry a wife and that a man and wife should become one flesh.
Genesis 2:24
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
God said that it was not good for man to be alone. In the New Testament we read:
1 Corinthians 11:11
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
We believe that this is not only true in this life but in the world to come. God has given man his priesthood and within that priest is the power to bind on earth so that it will be bound in heaven.
Mathew 18:18
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Thus through the power the priesthood it is possible to bind or seal marriages on earth and thus have them sealed or bound in heaven. Through this we believe that marriage can be eternal. We believe that God, as an exalted man has a wife sealed to him for all eternity. We believe that we were were all the offspring of God and existed as his offspring before we came to this earth.
Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
Psalms 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Job 38:4-7
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Jeremiah 1:5
4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Ephesians 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
These verse attest to our premortal existence before the foundation of the world. As the spirit offspring of our Father and Mother in heaven, we were born as spirits. Jesus Christ was the firstborn of all the spirit children of God the Father.
Romans 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the
firstborn among many brethren.
Hebrews 12:22-23
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and
church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hebrews 1:6
6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
In the premortal world of spirits, Jesus was the firstborn son of the Father and in this world he was the Only Begotten of the Father. Premortally he was the firstborn among many brethren. We believe that before God began all his creations, He gave birth to the spirit of Jesus Christ. From then, the Father gave his son preeminence in all things and Jesus became the creator of all things. He became the second member of the godhead under his Father. He created many worlds and created this earth. We do not believe that you have to have been God for an eternity past to have the power to create. We do not believe that anything is created from absolutely nothing. We believe that ex nihilo creation is a false doctrine. We believe that the spirit of man is created from eternal intelligence and spirit matter. We believe in continuing revelation and that God continues to reveal his will to prophets and apostles as much today and he did in ancient times. We believe that as spirits of God, those who were faithful in the premortal existence in the war in heaven are those who were allowed to come to earth and receive bodies of flesh and bone (see Revelation 12). Jesus, as the second member of the godhead, was god before the world was, He is god while the world is, and will be God after this world of mortality ends. In this way he is the same yesterday, today and forever. In this way he is the unchangeable God. Does this mean that nothing about Jesus ever changes? NO!! Jesus was a spirit being before He was born into this world. While in this world he had a body of flesh and blood. After his death and resurrection he no longer had a body with blood but had a body of flesh and bones that was made alive by the spirit within him. He is now a glorified immortal resurrected being who is still God.
3.)The Gospel - In this section Ninja007 argues primarily that the Bible teaches that faith without works is alive and can bring you to Christ who saves us through his grace. I have written much on this on this board and reject that you can even have a faith without works. Let us go to the Bible and see what it has to say:
James 2:14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Here the Apostle James tells us, in no uncertain terms, that faith without works is DEAD! You cannot have a true faith without good works. Ninja007 would defy this Biblical teaching and tell you that you can have a true faith without works. Paul tells us the following:
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
First off I will dispel the myth that people like Ninja007 try to pin on us because we do see the need to do good works and that is that our works save us. Our works nor our Faith save us!!! However, Jesus requires that we have faith which includes good works before He will save us with his grace. In these verses we learn that our works are not what saves but they are required of us and we were created to do good works. Because they are not what saves, we having nothing to boast of in good works. However, good works are a part of a true faith which brings us unto Christ wherein his grace does save us. Jesus taught:
Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
True, our works are not the saving force behind salvation. But Jesus in no uncertain terms lets us know that without good works, which is his will that we should walk in them, we will not receive his grace which is the saving force behind salvation. All through the Bible good works are spoken of and that we should do them. They don't save us and we have nothing to boast of in our works alone. However, we cannot even have a true faith without good works and they are the will of God which is required of us before He will save us into his kingdom by his grace. You can't just cast good works out the window and think that Jesus will save you by his grace. This what Ninja007 and many others do not fully understand about good works, faith, and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
