Zone1 Who is the Messiah in Judaism?

[irosie91]

Nothing “legalizes genocide”.

Do you use a scapegoat or no? How do you atone for sins?

The Inquisition which resulted in devastation of many communities mostly in Spain,
France, Portugal and Italy but which even reached the americas spanned about 8
centuries and is mediated by the CANON LAW of the Catholic Church. Justinian law
was the forerunner which was essentially founded by Constantine. Thus the christianity
of the Roman empire continued its devastation-----and is ALSO the basis for the Nuremburg
laws of Nazi Germany-----mid 1930s to mid 1940s

 

[theHawk]

Can you show me, in the canonical texts of Jewish law and practice, any information about She'ol that supports your claims? I can provide links to all sorts of books that would be acceptable. Let me know, please.

Gen 37:35
Gen 44:29
1 Kings 2:9
Psalm 18:5
Proverb 1:12
Proverb 30:16
Ezekiel 31:15
Jonah 2:2
Job 7:9
Psalm 6:5
Isaiah 14:9
Num 16:33
1 Sam 2:6
Job 24:19
Isaiah 14:15

Luke 16:19-21

Those few taken up to heaven:
2 Kings 2:11-12. (Elijah taken up to Heaven)
Gen 5:22-24 (Enoch was taken by God)

Also, Revelation tells us after the final judgement Death and Hades (Sheol) itself will be thrown into a lake of fire for the second death. (Rev 20:14)

I don’t care about links to “all sorts of books”.
If you can’t cite the Tanakh then you got nothing.

 

[rosends]

Gen 37:35
Gen 44:29
1 Kings 2:9
Psalm 18:5
Proverb 1:12
Proverb 30:16
Ezekiel 31:15
Jonah 2:2
Job 7:9
Psalm 6:5
Isaiah 14:9
Num 16:33
1 Sam 2:6
Job 24:19
Isaiah 14:15

Luke 16:19-21

Those few taken up to heaven:
2 Kings 2:11-12. (Elijah taken up to Heaven)
Gen 5:22-24 (Enoch was taken by God)

Also, Revelation tells us after the final judgement Death and Hades (Sheol) itself will be thrown into a lake of fire for the second death. (Rev 20:14)

I don’t care about links to “all sorts of books”.
If you can’t cite the Tanakh then you got nothing.

All you have done is cite verses that make reference to the concept of Sh'ol. None of these explains anything that would defend any of your claims nor is any of these a statement of belief of Judaism as a religion so you have failed in supporting what you said. Want to try again? Remember, your claim was in post 91 as

Sheol was divided into two areas. The good people went to Abraham’s bosom (where they were embraced by Abraham himself), the bad went to “the place or torment”, separated by a chasm.

Which if your referenced verses supports that?

 

[irosie91]

All you have done is cite verses that make reference to the concept of Sh'ol. None of these explains anything that would defend any of your claims nor is any of these a statement of belief of Judaism as a religion so you have failed in supporting what you said. Want to try again? Remember, your claim was in post 91 as



Which if your referenced verses supports that?

sheeeesh, Rosends----the HAWK'S model sounds interesting----better than
Dante's DIVINE COMEDY

 

[rosends]

sheeeesh, Rosends----the HAWK'S model sounds interesting----better than
Dante's DIVINE COMEDY

I'm all for creative fiction as long as people understand it is creative fiction.

 

[theHawk]

All you have done is cite verses that make reference to the concept of Sh'ol. None of these explains anything that would defend any of your claims nor is any of these a statement of belief of Judaism as a religion so you have failed in supporting what you said. Want to try again? Remember, your claim was in post 91 as



Which if your referenced verses supports that?

All of my versus support that. The dead go down into Sheol, not up into heaven (with very few exceptions).

Meanwhile you have listed zero versus in support of…..whatever it is you are claiming, which you are vague about.

 

[theHawk]

sheeeesh, Rosends----the HAWK'S model sounds interesting----better than
Dante's DIVINE COMEDY

Dante is not scripture nor considered canon by the Church.

 

[irosie91]

All of my versus support that. The dead go down into Sheol, not up into heaven (with very few exceptions).

Meanwhile you have listed zero versus in support of…..whatever it is you are claiming, which you are vague about.

hawk check the word VERSUS

 

[irosie91]

Dante is not scripture nor considered canon by the Church.

SO? actually--IN FACT Dante wrote the Divine comedy to be
consistent with church doctrine-----not that I care

 

[irosie91]

Dante is not scripture nor considered canon by the Church.

The Ramayana is a scriptural writings----do you credit every word therein as
a REALITY ? I got bad news for you-----Jewish scholarship does not credit every
word of any book with an ABSOLUTE reality-----if you consider the NT to be a
magical crystal ball----fine with me

 

[irosie91]

Nothing “legalizes genocide”.

Do you use a scapegoat or no? How do you atone for sins?

nothing legalizes genocide? so you consider canon law which did
legalize the Inquisition to be a pile of dog feces?

 

[theHawk]

The Ramayana is a scriptural writings----do you credit every word therein as
a REALITY ? I got bad news for you-----Jewish scholarship does not credit every
word of any book with an ABSOLUTE reality-----if you consider the NT to be a
magical crystal ball----fine with me

Yes, we know, “Jewish scholarship”, whatever that is at any given moment, believes what it wants, from time to time. When things get ….inconvenient, they dismiss scripture from the Tanakh. You lot have proven that.

 

[theHawk]

nothing legalizes genocide? so you consider canon law which did
legalize the Inquisition to be a pile of dog feces?

The inquisition was merely something set up by church leaders. That does not make them canon law like scriptures. Any Bishop, including the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) can become corrupt. It has no effect on Holy Scripture or our beliefs.

 

[BreezeWood]

Any Bishop, including the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) can become corrupt. It has no effect on Holy Scripture or our beliefs.

... or our beliefs. so true.

it has no "effect" because the scriptures they read is what is corrupt - on nearly every page of all 3 desert documents ...

- provide the etched heavenly tablets w/10 commandments - or remove them from all documents that include them.

 

[theHawk]

... or our beliefs. so true.

it has no "effect" because the scriptures they read is what is corrupt - on nearly every page of all 3 desert documents ...

- provide the etched heavenly tablets w/10 commandments - or remove them from all documents that include them.

So what law should we follow then?

What religion?

All you do is blabber and provide no solutions.

 

[irosie91]

Yes, we know, “Jewish scholarship”, whatever that is at any given moment, believes what it wants, from time to time. When things get ….inconvenient, they dismiss scripture from the Tanakh. You lot have proven that.

wrong again---in FACT none of the writings are ever dismissed---they remain even if
they are considered invalid. The value of writings in the mishnah, tanach, talmud
are always under discussion. Scholarly discussion is WAY OVER YOUR HEAD

 

[irosie91]

The inquisition was merely something set up by church leaders. That does not make them canon law like scriptures. Any Bishop, including the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) can become corrupt. It has no effect on Holy Scripture or our beliefs.

you are very UNFAMILIAR with Canon law-----IN FACT the Inquisition was LEGAL
ACCORDING TO CANON LAW------next review its offspring, to wit---SHARIAH
LAW-----in which shooting up a bus load of children is ALSO LEGAL

 

[rosends]

All of my versus support that. The dead go down into Sheol, not up into heaven (with very few exceptions).

Except your verse references don't indicate that. In fact, they indicate that the concept of "going down to Sh'ol" is rather rare, invoked only in particular cases.
Genesis 37:35 doesn't mention anything about Jacob's being dead.
44:29 says that Jacob will only go to Sh'ol in a particular situation. No one else from the time of Adam to Jacob mentioned Sh'ol and Jacob saves it as an unfortunate and conditional situation.
I Kings 2:9 has David telling others that they have to find a reason to send someone to Sh'ol and then in the next verse, David dies and the text says nothing about going to Sh'ol
Psalms 18:6 discusses "ropes of Sh'ol" being said by someone who was not dead.
Proverbs 1:12 talks about Sh'ol swallowing people alive, not dead.
Proverbs 30:16 speaks of people who don't honor their parents. THEY go to Sh'ol. Nothing is said about other people.

That's the first third of your list and none of it supports your claims. Do I have to go through the next set and embarrass you further? Numbers 16:33 speaks of a select group descending to Sh'ol while ALIVE. Isaiah 14 speaks specifically of the fate of the king of Babylon. That's a mighty small sample group from which you generalize about the dead as a larger group.

Meanwhile you have listed zero versus in support of…..whatever it is you are claiming, which you are vague about.

I don't have to post anything to support anything. I am asking you to support your claims and so far, you can't. The burden is on you.

 

[theHawk]

I don't have to post anything to support anything. I am asking you to support your claims and so far, you can't. The burden is on you.

In other words you have nothing to counter what I said.

Can you tell us what Sheol is then? You claim to be a Rabbi. Why not teach us? Odd that you refuse to.

Saying that the text I provided only pertains to “one situation“ does not refute my statement, they all support it. Just because some of the text don’t describe an actual death, and just a hypothetical, doesn’t detract from the fact that this is how the Jews saw death and Sheol.

So once again, I say you tell us what Sheol is, or the afterlife, and back it up with text.

 

[rosends]

In other words you have nothing to counter what I said.

Except that I went through over a third of what you claimed a support and showed how it didn't operate as support so your claim fails.

Can you tell us what Sheol is then? You claim to be a Rabbi. Why not teach us? Odd that you refuse to.

It is a Hebrew word with a very curious etymology. The simplest explanation is that it is related to sh-a-l meaning "question" or "uncertainty" because it represents separation from the certainty of the divine. It is translated as "pit" (which it isn't exactly) or "grave" (which it isn't). Here is some information

What Is the Meaning of ‘She’ol’ (Netherworld)? - The Jewish Link

I wrote a column about this word before. But I thought about it again when I wrote my new book “Roots and Rituals,” and there I revised some of my original conclusions. So I am writing my revised thoughts here. The netherworld location she’ol is mentioned over 60 times in Tanach. On the simplest...

jewishlink.news

You can look in Klein directly if that helps you

ש×Ö°×Ö×Ö¹× | Sefaria Search

Search 3,000 years of Jewish texts in Hebrew and English translation.

www.sefaria.org

Saying that the text I provided only pertains to “one situation“ does not refute my statement, they all support it.

You said that "The dead go down into Sheol" except that textually, very few of the dead go down to Sh'ol and some go down alive. So those verses refute your claim.

Just because some of the text don’t describe an actual death, and just a hypothetical, doesn’t detract from the fact that this is how the Jews saw death and Sheol.

Except that this isn't how Jews saw death. I find it funny that you try to instruct about something of which you are woefully ignorant.

So once again, I say you tell us what Sheol is, or the afterlife, and back it up with text.

some light reading

What is the Orthodox Jewish view of the afterlife?

What is the nature of life after death, according to Orthodox Judaism as it exists today? I have tried to read up on this, but I often hear very conflicted views... I mean I once read that Sheol is...

judaism.stackexchange.com

3 Sins Which Cause Eternal Gehinom (Hell)

What the Torah really says about eternal hell (Gehenna) "...all of these people descend to Gehenna and are judged there for generations and generations...Gehenna will terminate, but they still will not terminate..." (Rosh Hashanah 17a) In Judiasm, is there Eternal Punishment? The Gemara...

www.beezrathashem.org

Afterlife in Judaism

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org