Who is opposed to a border fence and why?

[Liquid Reigns]

False. Under the purple lipped jug head, who told the BP to stand down, they came across the border like flies.

And then they were let loose inside the US with a court date they never showed up for.

 

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

So the penalties are not deterrents for crime?

Obviously not, since those crimes continue to happen. Like I said, doesn't the fact that "tent cities" are continually full undermine the assumed point of their effectiveness? I just want to get you to think differently about it, because the current solutions don't seem to be working that well.

Speeding tickets make no difference?

Obviously not, since people still speed. Some people speed so much they have tons of warrants out for them because of all the unpaid speeding tickets they get.

Security cameras make no difference?

They can, sure. But that's not what we're talking about. And it's not a penalty, like a jail sentence. It's just a piece of surveillance equipment.

People behave the same with and without penalties?

People are gonna commit crimes regardless. It's just gonna happen. What we need to figure out as a society is what is the best way to rehabilitate someone so they don't commit future crimes. So far, there's no real evidence that our current penalties are any more effective than more humane solutions. Like I said, we are judged by how we treat our prisoners. And we treat them like shit. So what does that say about us?

So if the last time I snuck across the border I had to do a year in a tent city before being deported that would have no affect on my plans to do it gain?

First of all, the bulk of illegal immigrants didn't sneak into this country. They were brought here by people like Trump who hate American workers. They hate American workers so much, they literally import labor that they don't have to treat or pay as they would a citizen. A "tent city" solves that, how? Seems to me the people we should be cruel towards are people like Trump who bring these folks in, then feign ignorance once their visas expire. If you're gonna be cruel to anyone, be cruel to those people because they created and perpetuated the problem you want to solve by being cruel to someone who possibly came to this country seeking asylum from their own conflict-torn lands. We should be welcoming those people here, not trying to kick them out. They had the desire, drive, ingenuity, and determination to get the hell out of their bad situations, and come to the land of opportunity. Why would you want to be cruel to them? I don't get it. It seems like posturing to me.

So with or without speed limits and fines / penalties the amount of speeders would be the same.

Nobody is deterred by the consequences.

 

[BluesLegend]

Black communities desperately want a wall and for illegals to be deported.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Homeland Security produces first estimate of foreign visitors to U.S. who overstay deadline to leave

 

[Liquid Reigns]

There are plenty of reasons, and I gave you the biggest one; most illegal immigrants didn't sneak across the border in the middle of the night, they came on boats and planes using visas people like Trump got for them. Building a wall solves that problem, how?

54% came via Entry Without Inspection, 46% are visa overstays (PEW research). The numbers for EWI were much higher at one point roughly 60+/40-, but over the past few years EWi numbers are claimed to have gone down a bit.

 

[MrMike]

They have a fence to keep Dingo's under control (pest exclusion) in Australia so why not have one for our border to keep out infiltrating pests? I'm good with it...

 

[The Derp]

So with or without speed limits and fines / penalties the amount of speeders would be the same.

Well, German autobahns have no speed limits and their rate of deaths from car accidents are less than ours. Make no mistake, I of course think there should be speed limits; no one wants someone going 80 down their neighborhood street. I live in Atlanta, one of the worst cities to drive in of anywhere. There are speed limits. They are enforced. Yet people still drive like maniacs with lead feet.

Nobody is deterred by the consequences.

And you think being mean for mean's sake will somehow result in improved outcomes and less recidivism? How will it do that when we have all this real-world empirical evidence showing that the worse incarceration is, the more likely recidivism occurs?

 

[The Derp]

They have a fence to keep Dingo's under control (pest exclusion) in Australia so why not have one for our border to keep out infiltrating pests? I'm good with it...

How does a fence stop a plane or a boat?

 

[BluesLegend]

The border fence will pay for itself and turn a huge profit within 10 years, while raising wages for the poor, lowering unemployment, lowering welfare costs to the state. Yes it will destroy the Democratic party so there will be some fall out.

 

[MrMike]

They have a fence to keep Dingo's under control (pest exclusion) in Australia so why not have one for our border to keep out infiltrating pests? I'm good with it...

How does a fence stop a plane or a boat?

Leave strategic piles of nachos around and put antipersonnel mines underneath. Plus sharks with lasers...and radioactive hummingbirds

that's the ticket...

 

[Clementine]

Setting aside the disingenuous arguments about its cost and effectiveness, why are you opposed to a physical barrier to illegal immigration across our southern border? Please spare me the histrionics and tell me why we should not maintain our territorial integrity (like every other country in the world).

Because the bulk of illegal immigrants are people who overstayed their visas. Visas like the ones Trump uses to import foreign workers to work at his domestic resorts. A wall won't stop that. It's just a waste of time, money, and resources. Illegal border crossing apprehensions have dropped to a 17-year low, even as we've added 10,000 more Border Patrol Agents over the last few years.

How about instead of spending $20B to build a stupid wall, we take that $20B and instead spend it on health care for people who actually need it?

Bullshit. It's estimated that 30% to 40% overstayed their visas so that means 60% to 70% are sneaking through the borders. That is assuming we are even able to count them all. At least the ones outstaying their visas have been through a process where they had background checks. The majority pouring in through the border are unknown and many pose a grave threat to us.

 

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

So with or without speed limits and fines / penalties the amount of speeders would be the same?

Well, German autobahns have no speed limits and their rate of deaths from car accidents are less than ours. Make no mistake, I of course think there should be speed limits; no one wants someone going 80 down their neighborhood street. I live in Atlanta, one of the worst cities to drive in of anywhere. There are speed limits. They are enforced. Yet people still drive like maniacs with lead feet.

Nobody is deterred by the consequences?

And you think being mean for mean's sake will somehow result in improved outcomes and less recidivism? How will it do that when we have all this real-world empirical evidence showing that the worse incarceration is, the more likely recidivism occurs?

You did not answer my questions.


If consequences / laws / penalties make no difference why do we have them.

Think of taxes mate.

 

[MrMike]

The border fence will pay for itself and turn a huge profit within 10 years, while raising wages for the poor, lowering unemployment, lowering welfare costs to the state. Yes it will destroy the Democratic party so there will be some fall out.

If the path to legal residency for illegals in USA did not/and would not ever include voting rights the Liberals would abandon their pity ship pretty fast...

 

[BluesLegend]

The border fence will pay for itself and turn a huge profit within 10 years, while raising wages for the poor, lowering unemployment, lowering welfare costs to the state. Yes it will destroy the Democratic party so there will be some fall out.

If the path to legal residency for illegals in USA did not/and would not ever include voting rights the Liberals would abandon their pity ship pretty fast...

If they ever agree to those terms they are lying bank on it. They would cut that deal fully intending to challenge it in court AFTER they secured legal residency for the illegals.

 

[BlindBoo]

The border fence will pay for itself and turn a huge profit within 10 years, while raising wages for the poor, lowering unemployment, lowering welfare costs to the state. Yes it will destroy the Democratic party so there will be some fall out.

Profit? Maybe we could sell permits to patrol the boarder where the free fire kill zones are located. And when these patriots are not out killing vermin, they can relax in one many Trump named hotels built along the boarder wall to a accommodate them. All profit of course will go to pay for the wall.

 

[WorldWatcher]

#1 Ending birthright citizenship for those in the country illegally,

Not the reason most illegal immigrants come here, so you're solving for a problem that doesn't exist.

#2 Hammer employers (both companies and individuals that hire "under the table") for hiring illegals and making it much more expensive by far then employing legal residents,

Again, that's not the problem. It's a symptom of the problem, but not the cause. The employers hiring illegal immigrants aren't the problem. The problem is employers import foreign workers (who will work for cheap and in worse conditions) and then aren't held accountable when the worker they imported doesn't leave.

#3 Restrict access to free education (K-12) and instate rates (post-secondary) [hell make schools mandatory reporters].

Well that makes little sense. Children are victims. They should be taken care of, even if they come here illegally because it's the humane thing to do. Also, most of those children are refugees who come from turmoil-torn countries in Central America. They are allowed to seek asylum and voluntarily turn themselves in to Border Patrol Agents because that's part of the process to seek asylum.

#4 Restrict access to social programs (housing assistance, food stamps, etc.),

Why? What good does that serve?

#5 Restrict medical treatment to life saving emergency treatment, and then keep them in custody for deportation.

Again, the people you are talking about are largely asylum seekers fleeing conflict-torn Central American countries who turn themselves in when they cross the border in order to seek asylum. So they're already in custody as their case winds through Immigration Court. While in custody, we should give them medical treatment...because that's what being a good host entails.

#6 And yes, to accomplish #2 we need a solid guest worker program where bonds are paid and employers become responsible for the workers (I'm thinking like a Temp Agency for migrant workers that brings them in and takes them home as part of the mandate).

I would agree to that. I think that's a reasonable solution.

NOTE: You messed up the quotes from above attributing them to the wrong poster.


#1 - Never said it was the reason "most" illegal aliens come here. But it is a factor, and then their is the tourism citizenship trade where well to do foreign nationals come to the US for a "vacation" and stay through a birth.

#2 - Employers (whether companies or individuals hiring nannies or gardeners) are a huge part of the problem. People come here to seek a better life, part of the is the idea of finding a job.

#3 - I agree that children are victims, their parents shouldn't have brought them here to begin with. They should return home with the parents and let their country of origin pay for schooling. If a child is a citizen of the US (see #1) the parents have a choice (a) take the child with them, (b) turn the child over to responsible relatives to remain, (c) give up the child for adoption.

#4 - Significantly reduces the burden on the US taxpayer.

#5 - If they have been granted asylum then they are not here illegally. #5 applies if they entered the country illegally. If of course they are in custody, then medical treatment should be denied.

#6 - Thank you.


>>>>

 

[BluesLegend]

The border fence will pay for itself and turn a huge profit within 10 years, while raising wages for the poor, lowering unemployment, lowering welfare costs to the state. Yes it will destroy the Democratic party so there will be some fall out.

Profit? Maybe we could sell permits to patrol the boarder where the free fire kill zones are located. And when these patriots are not out killing vermin, they can relax in one many Trump named hotels built along the boarder wall to a accommodate them. All profit of course will go to pay for the wall.

Trump should sell border wall bricks online, I'd purchase one and have "KEEP OUT" engraved on my brick

 

[imawhosure]

Here is why we NEED the fence------>

Because, if they make it across the border, they go to CHICAGO, LA, or another big liberal city that is SANCTUARY. The libs then claim they won't turn them in, so they collect benefits at the least.......or send their kids to school draining out education system that the left claims needs more money.

So basically the left is saying------->if you can get to one of our cities, you are IN! The only way to prevent that is.......stop them at the border, period!

 

[The Derp]

If consequences / laws / penalties make no difference why do we have them.

So, you're kinda broadening it out there a bit. I didn't say we shouldn't have laws, consequences and/or penalties...what I'm saying is the laws, consequences, and penalties we currently have for things like illegal immigration don't seem to be working. Making it more cruel just pushes off the tough work of thinking of different laws, consequences, and/or penalties that could be more effective. And don't you want to improve effectiveness?

 

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

If consequences / laws / penalties make no difference why do we have them.

So, you're kinda broadening it out there a bit. I didn't say we shouldn't have laws, consequences and/or penalties...what I'm saying is the laws, consequences, and penalties we currently have for things like illegal immigration don't seem to be working. Making it more cruel just pushes off the tough work of thinking of different laws, consequences, and/or penalties that could be more effective. And don't you want to improve effectiveness?

Illegals are at an all time low due to the threat of consequences.