Who are some of your favorite writers, all-time?

[whitehall]

Stephen King ain't been right since he got hit by that van. His stuff like Salem's Lot was top notch horror but now his books are full of liberal B.S.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Stephen King ain't been right since he got hit by that van. His stuff like Salem's Lot was top notch horror but now his books are full of liberal B.S.

I basically got off King back at The Tommyknockers for no particular reason. His stuff developed kind of a certain sameness to it. The Talisman (with Peter Straub) seems but sort of a dry run for The Dark Tower.

Agreed, his early stuff was damn good.

 

[toobfreak]

Harlan Ellison

Did you ever get a chance to meet him? He was quite the character. Angry, confrontational, intelligent, clever, and above all, hysterically funny. Unfortunately, we'll most likely never see someone like him again.

Harlan's antics are well known after his bitter, tempestuous 40-year feud with Gene Roddenberry because Gene had the temerity to take a great Ellison novel that unfortunately wasn't a good fit to the given needed format of a TV show and made the necessary changes in it that turned it into the best Star Trek episode of all time.

Harlan was a little guy who unfortunately let his insecurity and persecution complex about his size cloud his brilliance. He even fought with the writers of Terminator claiming they stole the idea from one of his Outer Limits episodes to the point that they finally gave him screen credit just to shut him up.

He also won a goodly cash settlement. The suit was legit. I'm surprised the Herbert estate didn't stomp on Cameron for AVATAR.

Most writers of sound mind don't like people stealing, or fucking with their work. Harlan was simply louder about it than most.

I don't remember if money exchanged hands but many debate whether Terminator really was a rip off of the OL episode "Soldier." The soldier was just a soldier trained to combat his enemy. Terminator was a machine programed to destroy a specified target. But then, there was a time travel element to almost everything HE did, so I guess now anyone else who incorporates the idea is ripping him off?

You know, it IS possible for two people to have the same idea coincidentally just because it is a good idea, and not because there was any theft involved, as Newton and Leibniz proved.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Harlan Ellison

Did you ever get a chance to meet him? He was quite the character. Angry, confrontational, intelligent, clever, and above all, hysterically funny. Unfortunately, we'll most likely never see someone like him again.

Harlan's antics are well known after his bitter, tempestuous 40-year feud with Gene Roddenberry because Gene had the temerity to take a great Ellison novel that unfortunately wasn't a good fit to the given needed format of a TV show and made the necessary changes in it that turned it into the best Star Trek episode of all time.

Harlan was a little guy who unfortunately let his insecurity and persecution complex about his size cloud his brilliance. He even fought with the writers of Terminator claiming they stole the idea from one of his Outer Limits episodes to the point that they finally gave him screen credit just to shut him up.

He also won a goodly cash settlement. The suit was legit. I'm surprised the Herbert estate didn't stomp on Cameron for AVATAR.

Most writers of sound mind don't like people stealing, or fucking with their work. Harlan was simply louder about it than most.

I don't remember if money exchanged hands but many debate whether Terminator really was a rip off of the OL episode "Soldier." The soldier was just a soldier trained to combat his enemy. Terminator was a machine programed to destroy a specified target. But then, there was a time travel element to almost everything HE did, so I guess now anyone else who incorporates the idea is ripping him off?

You know, it IS possible for two people to have the same idea coincidentally just because it is a good idea, and not because there was any theft involved, as Newton and Leibniz proved.

Debate or not, the studio settled in Ellison's favor.

And considering the afore-mentioned AVATAR, while it was pure CGI-candy and fascinating to watch, the screenplay was a dead-on 7th grader's rewrite of the plot of DUNE. Only the names were changed to protect against further obviousness.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Interesting thing about Ellison and his fights. Whenever he felt they had messed up his story in the conversion to a show, he used the pseudonym "Cordwainer Bird". I think that is the name he used on the Star Trek episode they messed up.

 

[toobfreak]

Harlan Ellison

Did you ever get a chance to meet him? He was quite the character. Angry, confrontational, intelligent, clever, and above all, hysterically funny. Unfortunately, we'll most likely never see someone like him again.

Harlan's antics are well known after his bitter, tempestuous 40-year feud with Gene Roddenberry because Gene had the temerity to take a great Ellison novel that unfortunately wasn't a good fit to the given needed format of a TV show and made the necessary changes in it that turned it into the best Star Trek episode of all time.

Harlan was a little guy who unfortunately let his insecurity and persecution complex about his size cloud his brilliance. He even fought with the writers of Terminator claiming they stole the idea from one of his Outer Limits episodes to the point that they finally gave him screen credit just to shut him up.

He also won a goodly cash settlement. The suit was legit. I'm surprised the Herbert estate didn't stomp on Cameron for AVATAR.

Most writers of sound mind don't like people stealing, or fucking with their work. Harlan was simply louder about it than most.

I don't remember if money exchanged hands but many debate whether Terminator really was a rip off of the OL episode "Soldier." The soldier was just a soldier trained to combat his enemy. Terminator was a machine programed to destroy a specified target. But then, there was a time travel element to almost everything HE did, so I guess now anyone else who incorporates the idea is ripping him off?

You know, it IS possible for two people to have the same idea coincidentally just because it is a good idea, and not because there was any theft involved, as Newton and Leibniz proved.

Debate or not, the studio settled in Ellison's favor.

And considering the afore-mentioned AVATAR, while it was pure CGI-candy and fascinating to watch, the screenplay was a dead-on 7th grader's rewrite of the plot of DUNE. Only the names were changed to protect against further obviousness.

Odd, I both read the book Dune as well as saw both the regular and extended versions of Dune many times as well as have Avatar as well, and I never would have guessed in a million years that Avatar was even remotely a rip off of Dune! Just where was the House Attrades in Avatar? The worms? The spice malange? The House Harkonen? The spice aliens that foled space? What about the Kwisatz Haderach? I even missed the missing water saved deep underground.

 

[bluzman61]

Interesting thing about Ellison and his fights. Whenever he felt they had messed up his story in the conversion to a show, he used the pseudonym "Cordwainer Bird". I think that is the name he used on the Star Trek episode they messed up.

Yep, very true. And the funniest thing about the name, "Cordwainer Bird", is that it literally means "maker of shoes (for) bird(s). A sly way of Harlan saying that this work was as useless as a maker of shoes for birds! Harlan had SUCH a clever and brilliant mind. Thanks for your post, Sailor.

 

[Dick Foster]

I've enjoyed the work of SO many writers over the years since I first learned to read. I thank my mother for instilling a love of books and reading in me. It's one of the many gifts she gave me that I'll never be able to adequately thank her for in my prayers to her spirit. Anyway, here are my five favorites - 1) Ray Bradbury, the first writer that got me really interested in science fiction/fantasy and books for adult reading. I had the great fortune of meeting him a couple times at lectures/book signings he did in Phoenix, Arizona. He was a wonderful speaker and very generous in signing items for his fans. I had only one item each that he signed both times, but one of those times, a person in front of me had at least 20, maybe 30 items for him to sign, and he did so with no complaint. The only comment he had about the guy after he left was, "Boy, he sure had a lot to sign!" The man was a true gentleman in every sense of the word. 2) Harlan Ellison, just a fantastically intelligent, clever, angry, funny, loving, and at times, unbelievably tender in his writing, both fiction and non-fiction. I also had the great fortune of meeting him twice, at lectures/book signings. He was incredibly funny both times and also very generous in signing items. I own 7 or 8 items he was kind enough to sign for me. And like the works of Ray Bradbury, everything Harlan wrote is worthy of reading and highly recommended. 3) Stephen King, THE horror master. He's the one, more than any other writer, that got me interested in reading horror fiction. His first ten books or so are absolutely essential for fans of horror. His non-fiction works have been wonderful, as well, especially his Danse Macabre, I believe first published in 1980. It's a book of his loving and often very funny, memories of horror writings, horror movies, and horror TV shows that left an indelible mark on him. HIGHLY recommended. 4) Peter Guralnick, THE best writer of music and music history I've ever read. He has a love for many genres of music, including blues, classic country (before the 1980's), classic r&b from the 60's and 70's, and rock and roll. His loves shines in all of his work. A brilliant writer. 5) Joe R. Lansdale, a prolific writer of horror and murder/mystery novels. His early stuff from the early to mid 80's is a bit gruesome and violent at times, but always well-written. In recent years he's become quite popular due to his ongoing series of the adventures and misadventures of his two well-meaning, but sometimes hapless private investigators, Hap and Leonard. Every book I've read in the series is funny and action packed. Highly recommended, as well. I, along with my sister, had the great fortune of meeting Mr. Lansdale at a lecture/book signing he did in Scottsdale, Arizona, some years ago. He was entertaining and very generous in signing items, I believe he signed about five items of mine. So, here are some of my favorite writers, who are some of yours?

James Michener, Ayn Rand, George Orwell, Ray Bradbury, Aldous Huxley, Charles Dickens, Tom Clancy and this board is being a real PITA so I'll end the list here.

 

[bluzman61]

I've enjoyed the work of SO many writers over the years since I first learned to read. I thank my mother for instilling a love of books and reading in me. It's one of the many gifts she gave me that I'll never be able to adequately thank her for in my prayers to her spirit. Anyway, here are my five favorites - 1) Ray Bradbury, the first writer that got me really interested in science fiction/fantasy and books for adult reading. I had the great fortune of meeting him a couple times at lectures/book signings he did in Phoenix, Arizona. He was a wonderful speaker and very generous in signing items for his fans. I had only one item each that he signed both times, but one of those times, a person in front of me had at least 20, maybe 30 items for him to sign, and he did so with no complaint. The only comment he had about the guy after he left was, "Boy, he sure had a lot to sign!" The man was a true gentleman in every sense of the word. 2) Harlan Ellison, just a fantastically intelligent, clever, angry, funny, loving, and at times, unbelievably tender in his writing, both fiction and non-fiction. I also had the great fortune of meeting him twice, at lectures/book signings. He was incredibly funny both times and also very generous in signing items. I own 7 or 8 items he was kind enough to sign for me. And like the works of Ray Bradbury, everything Harlan wrote is worthy of reading and highly recommended. 3) Stephen King, THE horror master. He's the one, more than any other writer, that got me interested in reading horror fiction. His first ten books or so are absolutely essential for fans of horror. His non-fiction works have been wonderful, as well, especially his Danse Macabre, I believe first published in 1980. It's a book of his loving and often very funny, memories of horror writings, horror movies, and horror TV shows that left an indelible mark on him. HIGHLY recommended. 4) Peter Guralnick, THE best writer of music and music history I've ever read. He has a love for many genres of music, including blues, classic country (before the 1980's), classic r&b from the 60's and 70's, and rock and roll. His loves shines in all of his work. A brilliant writer. 5) Joe R. Lansdale, a prolific writer of horror and murder/mystery novels. His early stuff from the early to mid 80's is a bit gruesome and violent at times, but always well-written. In recent years he's become quite popular due to his ongoing series of the adventures and misadventures of his two well-meaning, but sometimes hapless private investigators, Hap and Leonard. Every book I've read in the series is funny and action packed. Highly recommended, as well. I, along with my sister, had the great fortune of meeting Mr. Lansdale at a lecture/book signing he did in Scottsdale, Arizona, some years ago. He was entertaining and very generous in signing items, I believe he signed about five items of mine. So, here are some of my favorite writers, who are some of yours?

James Michener, Ayn Rand, George Orwell, Ray Bradbury, Aldous Huxley, Charles Dickens, Tom Clancy and this board is being a real PITA so I'll end the list here.

Thanks for the post, Dick. It's great to see that MANY people have mentioned Ray Bradbury. Hope is NOT totally lost for civilization!

 

[toobfreak]

Interesting thing about Ellison and his fights. Whenever he felt they had messed up his story in the conversion to a show, he used the pseudonym "Cordwainer Bird". I think that is the name he used on the Star Trek episode they messed up.

No. They used his real name on "City ..." But you are right, the Bird moniker was reserved when some work of his had been done forced by contractual obligation or otherwise corrupted by the industry that he otherwise wanted to light a match to like a burning dog turd. Harlan knew what he wanted.

A very worthwhile read is to get the book where they give Harlan's ORIGINAL version for City On The Edge of Forever, plus the rewrites leading up to his final draft. An excellent story in its own right that gives insights into the aired version.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01K0PMJM6/?tag=ff0d01-20

You can see Kirk and Spock bent over hugging Harlan on the cover.

 

[bluzman61]

Interesting thing about Ellison and his fights. Whenever he felt they had messed up his story in the conversion to a show, he used the pseudonym "Cordwainer Bird". I think that is the name he used on the Star Trek episode they messed up.

No. They used his real name on "City ..." But you are right, the Bird moniker was reserved when some work of his had been done forced by contractual obligation or otherwise corrupted by the industry that he otherwise wanted to light a match to like a burning dog turd. Harlan knew what he wanted.

A very worthwhile read is to get the book where they give Harlan's ORIGINAL version for City On The Edge of Forever, plus the rewrites leading up to his final draft. An excellent story in its own right that gives insights into the aired version.

Thanks for your post, tb. I own a SIGNED copy of the book you mentioned. It's a fascinating read!

 

[toobfreak]

Interesting thing about Ellison and his fights. Whenever he felt they had messed up his story in the conversion to a show, he used the pseudonym "Cordwainer Bird". I think that is the name he used on the Star Trek episode they messed up.

No. They used his real name on "City ..." But you are right, the Bird moniker was reserved when some work of his had been done forced by contractual obligation or otherwise corrupted by the industry that he otherwise wanted to light a match to like a burning dog turd. Harlan knew what he wanted.

A very worthwhile read is to get the book where they give Harlan's ORIGINAL version for City On The Edge of Forever, plus the rewrites leading up to his final draft. An excellent story in its own right that gives insights into the aired version.

Thanks for your post, tb. I own a SIGNED copy of the book you mentioned. It's a fascinating read!

Yes, Harlan's sig shows a man who is highly idealistic, narrow in his views, his philosophy not at all inclusive of others, not ostentatious but simple in tastes to the point of being spartan, cautious, irritable, angry, stubborn, deliberate, slow to change, a very exploratory mind, highly emotional yet restrictive and repressive, egotistical and fatalistic bordering on pessimistic or depression. Basically a destructive personality who likely traveled inward in his imagination to escape the failings he saw in his outer world.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Harlan Ellison

Did you ever get a chance to meet him? He was quite the character. Angry, confrontational, intelligent, clever, and above all, hysterically funny. Unfortunately, we'll most likely never see someone like him again.

Harlan's antics are well known after his bitter, tempestuous 40-year feud with Gene Roddenberry because Gene had the temerity to take a great Ellison novel that unfortunately wasn't a good fit to the given needed format of a TV show and made the necessary changes in it that turned it into the best Star Trek episode of all time.

Harlan was a little guy who unfortunately let his insecurity and persecution complex about his size cloud his brilliance. He even fought with the writers of Terminator claiming they stole the idea from one of his Outer Limits episodes to the point that they finally gave him screen credit just to shut him up.

He also won a goodly cash settlement. The suit was legit. I'm surprised the Herbert estate didn't stomp on Cameron for AVATAR.

Most writers of sound mind don't like people stealing, or fucking with their work. Harlan was simply louder about it than most.

I don't remember if money exchanged hands but many debate whether Terminator really was a rip off of the OL episode "Soldier." The soldier was just a soldier trained to combat his enemy. Terminator was a machine programed to destroy a specified target. But then, there was a time travel element to almost everything HE did, so I guess now anyone else who incorporates the idea is ripping him off?

You know, it IS possible for two people to have the same idea coincidentally just because it is a good idea, and not because there was any theft involved, as Newton and Leibniz proved.

Debate or not, the studio settled in Ellison's favor.

And considering the afore-mentioned AVATAR, while it was pure CGI-candy and fascinating to watch, the screenplay was a dead-on 7th grader's rewrite of the plot of DUNE. Only the names were changed to protect against further obviousness.

Odd, I both read the book Dune as well as saw both the regular and extended versions of Dune many times as well as have Avatar as well, and I never would have guessed in a million years that Avatar was even remotely a rip off of Dune! Just where was the House Attrades in Avatar? The worms? The spice malange? The House Harkonen? The spice aliens that foled space? What about the Kwisatz Haderach? I even missed the missing water saved deep underground.

Sully = Paul
Natiri = Chani
Na'vi = Fremen
Melange = Unobtanium
Pandora (only source) = Arrakis (only source)
RDA = Imperium/CHOAM/Spacing Guild
Grace = Jessica
Quaritch = Various Harkonnens
Ekutan/T'sutey = Stilgar
Toruk/Ikran = physical substitute sandworms
Eywa = spiritual substitute sandworms

I had read DUNE probably 15 times by the time Lynch's film was released, and several times since. It's well studied. Forget the films. They are tourist attractions, so far.

Basic plots are nearly identical. White boy from outer space arrives with the human forces, is turned against them and joins the primitive indigenous natives against the evil humans attempting to gain control over a resource that is available nowhere else. Sully's progression to leadership of the Na'vi is very similar to Paul's rise among the Fremen.

That Cameron stripped out most of the political, ecological, and cultural arguments of DUNE to make a tighter plot does not disguise the fact that it is derivative in the extreme. The characters follow essentially the same paths as their mirrored DUNE characters with the same motivations, and nearly along an exact timeline.

It's been said that only seven stories exist in the world, but endless plots. Cameron took a short cut with AVATAR.

In the end, Sully is recognized as the Kwisatz Hader ... er, Na'vi Ekutan. Stillsuits not required.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Interesting thing about Ellison and his fights. Whenever he felt they had messed up his story in the conversion to a show, he used the pseudonym "Cordwainer Bird". I think that is the name he used on the Star Trek episode they messed up.

No. They used his real name on "City ..." But you are right, the Bird moniker was reserved when some work of his had been done forced by contractual obligation or otherwise corrupted by the industry that he otherwise wanted to light a match to like a burning dog turd. Harlan knew what he wanted.

A very worthwhile read is to get the book where they give Harlan's ORIGINAL version for City On The Edge of Forever, plus the rewrites leading up to his final draft. An excellent story in its own right that gives insights into the aired version.

Thanks for your post, tb. I own a SIGNED copy of the book you mentioned. It's a fascinating read!

Yes, Harlan's sig shows a man who is highly idealistic, narrow in his views, his philosophy not at all inclusive of others, not ostentatious but simple in tastes to the point of being spartan, cautious, irritable, angry, stubborn, deliberate, slow to change, a very exploratory mind, highly emotional yet restrictive and repressive, egotistical and fatalistic bordering on pessimistic or depression. Basically a destructive personality who likely traveled inward in his imagination to escape the failings he saw in his outer world.

Destructive? Not at all. He was a wise, sensitive and brilliant man who brooked no fools and called things as he saw them. If that's narrow, tough titty.

I first read him at age 12, and followed his career thereafter. I have every published book in 1st editions, most signed. His recordings are excellent. He was funny as hell, even when ripping you a new asshole.

He was always an inspiration.

 

[toobfreak]

Harlan Ellison

Did you ever get a chance to meet him? He was quite the character. Angry, confrontational, intelligent, clever, and above all, hysterically funny. Unfortunately, we'll most likely never see someone like him again.

Harlan's antics are well known after his bitter, tempestuous 40-year feud with Gene Roddenberry because Gene had the temerity to take a great Ellison novel that unfortunately wasn't a good fit to the given needed format of a TV show and made the necessary changes in it that turned it into the best Star Trek episode of all time.

Harlan was a little guy who unfortunately let his insecurity and persecution complex about his size cloud his brilliance. He even fought with the writers of Terminator claiming they stole the idea from one of his Outer Limits episodes to the point that they finally gave him screen credit just to shut him up.

He also won a goodly cash settlement. The suit was legit. I'm surprised the Herbert estate didn't stomp on Cameron for AVATAR.

Most writers of sound mind don't like people stealing, or fucking with their work. Harlan was simply louder about it than most.

I don't remember if money exchanged hands but many debate whether Terminator really was a rip off of the OL episode "Soldier." The soldier was just a soldier trained to combat his enemy. Terminator was a machine programed to destroy a specified target. But then, there was a time travel element to almost everything HE did, so I guess now anyone else who incorporates the idea is ripping him off?

You know, it IS possible for two people to have the same idea coincidentally just because it is a good idea, and not because there was any theft involved, as Newton and Leibniz proved.

Debate or not, the studio settled in Ellison's favor.

And considering the afore-mentioned AVATAR, while it was pure CGI-candy and fascinating to watch, the screenplay was a dead-on 7th grader's rewrite of the plot of DUNE. Only the names were changed to protect against further obviousness.

Odd, I both read the book Dune as well as saw both the regular and extended versions of Dune many times as well as have Avatar as well, and I never would have guessed in a million years that Avatar was even remotely a rip off of Dune! Just where was the House Attrades in Avatar? The worms? The spice malange? The House Harkonen? The spice aliens that foled space? What about the Kwisatz Haderach? I even missed the missing water saved deep underground.

Sully = Paul
Natiri = Chani
Na'vi = Fremen
Melange = Unobtanium
Pandora (only source) = Arrakis (only source)
RDA = Imperium/CHOAM/Spacing Guild
Grace = Jessica
Quaritch = Various Harkonnens
Ekutan/T'sutey = Stilgar
Toruk/Ikran = physical substitute sandworms
Eywa = spiritual substitute sandworms

I had read DUNE probably 15 times by the time Lynch's film was released, and several times since. It's well studied. Forget the films. They are tourist attractions, so far.

Basic plots are nearly identical. White boy from outer space arrives with the human forces, is turned against them and joins the primitive indigenous natives against the evil humans attempting to gain control over a resource that is available nowhere else. Sully's progression to leadership of the Na'vi is very similar to Paul's rise among the Fremen.

That Cameron stripped out most of the political, ecological, and cultural arguments of DUNE to make a tighter plot does not disguise the fact that it is derivative in the extreme. The characters follow essentially the same paths as their mirrored DUNE characters with the same motivations, and nearly along an exact timeline.

It's been said that only seven stories exist in the world, but endless plots. Cameron took a short cut with AVATAR.

In the end, Sully is recognized as the Kwisatz Hader ... er, Na'vi Ekutan. Stillsuits not required.

Well, if I watch Avatar again, I will keep all that in mind, but coincidences don't prove there was any deliberate intellectual theft. As you say, there are only so many ideas and it IS a pretty broad, basic concept. Seeing Dune years ago, the basic idea might have just remained in his subconscious and influenced his thinking. But then, as a writer, he also should have seen and recognized the parallels.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Harlan Ellison

Did you ever get a chance to meet him? He was quite the character. Angry, confrontational, intelligent, clever, and above all, hysterically funny. Unfortunately, we'll most likely never see someone like him again.

Harlan's antics are well known after his bitter, tempestuous 40-year feud with Gene Roddenberry because Gene had the temerity to take a great Ellison novel that unfortunately wasn't a good fit to the given needed format of a TV show and made the necessary changes in it that turned it into the best Star Trek episode of all time.

Harlan was a little guy who unfortunately let his insecurity and persecution complex about his size cloud his brilliance. He even fought with the writers of Terminator claiming they stole the idea from one of his Outer Limits episodes to the point that they finally gave him screen credit just to shut him up.

He also won a goodly cash settlement. The suit was legit. I'm surprised the Herbert estate didn't stomp on Cameron for AVATAR.

Most writers of sound mind don't like people stealing, or fucking with their work. Harlan was simply louder about it than most.

I don't remember if money exchanged hands but many debate whether Terminator really was a rip off of the OL episode "Soldier." The soldier was just a soldier trained to combat his enemy. Terminator was a machine programed to destroy a specified target. But then, there was a time travel element to almost everything HE did, so I guess now anyone else who incorporates the idea is ripping him off?

You know, it IS possible for two people to have the same idea coincidentally just because it is a good idea, and not because there was any theft involved, as Newton and Leibniz proved.

Debate or not, the studio settled in Ellison's favor.

And considering the afore-mentioned AVATAR, while it was pure CGI-candy and fascinating to watch, the screenplay was a dead-on 7th grader's rewrite of the plot of DUNE. Only the names were changed to protect against further obviousness.

Odd, I both read the book Dune as well as saw both the regular and extended versions of Dune many times as well as have Avatar as well, and I never would have guessed in a million years that Avatar was even remotely a rip off of Dune! Just where was the House Attrades in Avatar? The worms? The spice malange? The House Harkonen? The spice aliens that foled space? What about the Kwisatz Haderach? I even missed the missing water saved deep underground.

Sully = Paul
Natiri = Chani
Na'vi = Fremen
Melange = Unobtanium
Pandora (only source) = Arrakis (only source)
RDA = Imperium/CHOAM/Spacing Guild
Grace = Jessica
Quaritch = Various Harkonnens
Ekutan/T'sutey = Stilgar
Toruk/Ikran = physical substitute sandworms
Eywa = spiritual substitute sandworms

I had read DUNE probably 15 times by the time Lynch's film was released, and several times since. It's well studied. Forget the films. They are tourist attractions, so far.

Basic plots are nearly identical. White boy from outer space arrives with the human forces, is turned against them and joins the primitive indigenous natives against the evil humans attempting to gain control over a resource that is available nowhere else. Sully's progression to leadership of the Na'vi is very similar to Paul's rise among the Fremen.

That Cameron stripped out most of the political, ecological, and cultural arguments of DUNE to make a tighter plot does not disguise the fact that it is derivative in the extreme. The characters follow essentially the same paths as their mirrored DUNE characters with the same motivations, and nearly along an exact timeline.

It's been said that only seven stories exist in the world, but endless plots. Cameron took a short cut with AVATAR.

In the end, Sully is recognized as the Kwisatz Hader ... er, Na'vi Ekutan. Stillsuits not required.

Well, if I watch Avatar again, I will keep all that in mind, but coincidences don't prove there was any deliberate intellectual theft. As you say, there are only so many ideas and it IS a pretty broad, basic concept. Seeing Dune years ago, the basic idea might have just remained in his subconscious and influenced his thinking. But then, as a writer, he also should have seen and recognized the parallels.

They are not coincidences. Herbert did it 40+ years before Cameron. If I were to rewrite Les Miserables as science fiction, would no one notice?

 

[Picaro]

I've enjoyed the work of SO many writers over the years since I first learned to read. I thank my mother for instilling a love of books and reading in me. It's one of the many gifts she gave me that I'll never be able to adequately thank her for in my prayers to her spirit. Anyway, here are my five favorites - 1) Ray Bradbury, the first writer that got me really interested in science fiction/fantasy and books for adult reading. I had the great fortune of meeting him a couple times at lectures/book signings he did in Phoenix, Arizona. He was a wonderful speaker and very generous in signing items for his fans. I had only one item each that he signed both times, but one of those times, a person in front of me had at least 20, maybe 30 items for him to sign, and he did so with no complaint. The only comment he had about the guy after he left was, "Boy, he sure had a lot to sign!" The man was a true gentleman in every sense of the word. 2) Harlan Ellison, just a fantastically intelligent, clever, angry, funny, loving, and at times, unbelievably tender in his writing, both fiction and non-fiction. I also had the great fortune of meeting him twice, at lectures/book signings. He was incredibly funny both times and also very generous in signing items. I own 7 or 8 items he was kind enough to sign for me. And like the works of Ray Bradbury, everything Harlan wrote is worthy of reading and highly recommended. 3) Stephen King, THE horror master. He's the one, more than any other writer, that got me interested in reading horror fiction. His first ten books or so are absolutely essential for fans of horror. His non-fiction works have been wonderful, as well, especially his Danse Macabre, I believe first published in 1980. It's a book of his loving and often very funny, memories of horror writings, horror movies, and horror TV shows that left an indelible mark on him. HIGHLY recommended. 4) Peter Guralnick, THE best writer of music and music history I've ever read. He has a love for many genres of music, including blues, classic country (before the 1980's), classic r&b from the 60's and 70's, and rock and roll. His loves shines in all of his work. A brilliant writer. 5) Joe R. Lansdale, a prolific writer of horror and murder/mystery novels. His early stuff from the early to mid 80's is a bit gruesome and violent at times, but always well-written. In recent years he's become quite popular due to his ongoing series of the adventures and misadventures of his two well-meaning, but sometimes hapless private investigators, Hap and Leonard. Every book I've read in the series is funny and action packed. Highly recommended, as well. I, along with my sister, had the great fortune of meeting Mr. Lansdale at a lecture/book signing he did in Scottsdale, Arizona, some years ago. He was entertaining and very generous in signing items, I believe he signed about five items of mine. So, here are some of my favorite writers, who are some of yours?

James Michener, Ayn Rand, George Orwell, Ray Bradbury, Aldous Huxley, Charles Dickens, Tom Clancy and this board is being a real PITA so I'll end the list here.

Thanks for the post, Dick. It's great to see that MANY people have mentioned Ray Bradbury. Hope is NOT totally lost for civilization!

We can probably find old threads from the 1990's in the Wayback Machine and compare similar lists from then to those of today, and find an entirely different spread of authors; nobody has yet listed Mark Twain, for instance, one of the great humorists of American Lit., and many others of similar talent, W. E. B. Dubois , etc. I saw a list of readings from a high school English Lit class some years ago, and was struck by the differences from my own days in school. And yes, the modern one read more like an indoctrination agenda than a genuine Lit class.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

I've enjoyed the work of SO many writers over the years since I first learned to read. I thank my mother for instilling a love of books and reading in me. It's one of the many gifts she gave me that I'll never be able to adequately thank her for in my prayers to her spirit. Anyway, here are my five favorites - 1) Ray Bradbury, the first writer that got me really interested in science fiction/fantasy and books for adult reading. I had the great fortune of meeting him a couple times at lectures/book signings he did in Phoenix, Arizona. He was a wonderful speaker and very generous in signing items for his fans. I had only one item each that he signed both times, but one of those times, a person in front of me had at least 20, maybe 30 items for him to sign, and he did so with no complaint. The only comment he had about the guy after he left was, "Boy, he sure had a lot to sign!" The man was a true gentleman in every sense of the word. 2) Harlan Ellison, just a fantastically intelligent, clever, angry, funny, loving, and at times, unbelievably tender in his writing, both fiction and non-fiction. I also had the great fortune of meeting him twice, at lectures/book signings. He was incredibly funny both times and also very generous in signing items. I own 7 or 8 items he was kind enough to sign for me. And like the works of Ray Bradbury, everything Harlan wrote is worthy of reading and highly recommended. 3) Stephen King, THE horror master. He's the one, more than any other writer, that got me interested in reading horror fiction. His first ten books or so are absolutely essential for fans of horror. His non-fiction works have been wonderful, as well, especially his Danse Macabre, I believe first published in 1980. It's a book of his loving and often very funny, memories of horror writings, horror movies, and horror TV shows that left an indelible mark on him. HIGHLY recommended. 4) Peter Guralnick, THE best writer of music and music history I've ever read. He has a love for many genres of music, including blues, classic country (before the 1980's), classic r&b from the 60's and 70's, and rock and roll. His loves shines in all of his work. A brilliant writer. 5) Joe R. Lansdale, a prolific writer of horror and murder/mystery novels. His early stuff from the early to mid 80's is a bit gruesome and violent at times, but always well-written. In recent years he's become quite popular due to his ongoing series of the adventures and misadventures of his two well-meaning, but sometimes hapless private investigators, Hap and Leonard. Every book I've read in the series is funny and action packed. Highly recommended, as well. I, along with my sister, had the great fortune of meeting Mr. Lansdale at a lecture/book signing he did in Scottsdale, Arizona, some years ago. He was entertaining and very generous in signing items, I believe he signed about five items of mine. So, here are some of my favorite writers, who are some of yours?

James Michener, Ayn Rand, George Orwell, Ray Bradbury, Aldous Huxley, Charles Dickens, Tom Clancy and this board is being a real PITA so I'll end the list here.

Thanks for the post, Dick. It's great to see that MANY people have mentioned Ray Bradbury. Hope is NOT totally lost for civilization!

We can probably find old threads from the 1990's in the Wayback Machine and compare similar lists from then to those of today, and find an entirely different spread of authors; nobody has yet listed Mark Twain, for instance, one of the great humorists of American Lit., and many others of similar talent, W. E. B. Dubois , etc. I saw a list of readings from a high school English Lit class some years ago, and was struck by the differences from my own days in school.

There are simply too many great writers. We would be making lists all day.

 

[Picaro]

Harlan Ellison

Did you ever get a chance to meet him? He was quite the character. Angry, confrontational, intelligent, clever, and above all, hysterically funny. Unfortunately, we'll most likely never see someone like him again.

Harlan's antics are well known after his bitter, tempestuous 40-year feud with Gene Roddenberry because Gene had the temerity to take a great Ellison novel that unfortunately wasn't a good fit to the given needed format of a TV show and made the necessary changes in it that turned it into the best Star Trek episode of all time.

Harlan was a little guy who unfortunately let his insecurity and persecution complex about his size cloud his brilliance. He even fought with the writers of Terminator claiming they stole the idea from one of his Outer Limits episodes to the point that they finally gave him screen credit just to shut him up.

He also won a goodly cash settlement. The suit was legit. I'm surprised the Herbert estate didn't stomp on Cameron for AVATAR.

Most writers of sound mind don't like people stealing, or fucking with their work. Harlan was simply louder about it than most.

I don't remember if money exchanged hands but many debate whether Terminator really was a rip off of the OL episode "Soldier." The soldier was just a soldier trained to combat his enemy. Terminator was a machine programed to destroy a specified target. But then, there was a time travel element to almost everything HE did, so I guess now anyone else who incorporates the idea is ripping him off?

You know, it IS possible for two people to have the same idea coincidentally just because it is a good idea, and not because there was any theft involved, as Newton and Leibniz proved.

Debate or not, the studio settled in Ellison's favor.

And considering the afore-mentioned AVATAR, while it was pure CGI-candy and fascinating to watch, the screenplay was a dead-on 7th grader's rewrite of the plot of DUNE. Only the names were changed to protect against further obviousness.

Odd, I both read the book Dune as well as saw both the regular and extended versions of Dune many times as well as have Avatar as well, and I never would have guessed in a million years that Avatar was even remotely a rip off of Dune! Just where was the House Attrades in Avatar? The worms? The spice malange? The House Harkonen? The spice aliens that foled space? What about the Kwisatz Haderach? I even missed the missing water saved deep underground.

Sully = Paul
Natiri = Chani
Na'vi = Fremen
Melange = Unobtanium
Pandora (only source) = Arrakis (only source)
RDA = Imperium/CHOAM/Spacing Guild
Grace = Jessica
Quaritch = Various Harkonnens
Ekutan/T'sutey = Stilgar
Toruk/Ikran = physical substitute sandworms
Eywa = spiritual substitute sandworms

I had read DUNE probably 15 times by the time Lynch's film was released, and several times since. It's well studied. Forget the films. They are tourist attractions, so far.

Basic plots are nearly identical. White boy from outer space arrives with the human forces, is turned against them and joins the primitive indigenous natives against the evil humans attempting to gain control over a resource that is available nowhere else. Sully's progression to leadership of the Na'vi is very similar to Paul's rise among the Fremen.

That Cameron stripped out most of the political, ecological, and cultural arguments of DUNE to make a tighter plot does not disguise the fact that it is derivative in the extreme. The characters follow essentially the same paths as their mirrored DUNE characters with the same motivations, and nearly along an exact timeline.

It's been said that only seven stories exist in the world, but endless plots. Cameron took a short cut with AVATAR.

In the end, Sully is recognized as the Kwisatz Hader ... er, Na'vi Ekutan. Stillsuits not required.

Well, if I watch Avatar again, I will keep all that in mind, but coincidences don't prove there was any deliberate intellectual theft. As you say, there are only so many ideas and it IS a pretty broad, basic concept. Seeing Dune years ago, the basic idea might have just remained in his subconscious and influenced his thinking. But then, as a writer, he also should have seen and recognized the parallels.

They are not coincidences. Herbert did it 40+ years before Cameron. If I were to rewrite Les Miserables as science fiction, would no one notice?

I would vote' no' for the majority of people these days; they wouldn't have a clue about Les Miserables and its themes.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Even though it had been many years since I last saw him i was devastated to hear of his passing.

I'd be interested to hear any stories you can share about Harlan.

Oh gee that was so very long ago. I was quite a bit taller than he who called me Short Stack. Robert Silverberg (have you ever read any of his work) once remarked that Harlan would never be happy until he found a woman his own size. It turned out to be so very true. His marriage to tiny Susan in 1986 lasted to his death.

We weren't a couple or anything like that. It was the 70s.