Which should have first priority: The woman, the fertilized egg, or the fetus?

[Cecilie1200]

Women come first.

There is no 'first/'

The only danger is to her soul.

Well with saving the woman you can have more kids, killing off the woman not so much..

Thanks for contributing that utter irrelevancy to the discussion. It's so very helpful of you to point out that dead women can't have children - because no one EVER had that brilliant epiphany except you - even though we are not even remotely talking about anything which involves women dying.

We can always count on you for an absolutely meaningless waste of message space.

 

[Moonglow]

Women come first.

There is no 'first/'

The only danger is to her soul.

Well with saving the woman you can have more kids, killing off the woman not so much..

Thanks for contributing that utter irrelevancy to the discussion. It's so very helpful of you to point out that dead women can't have children - because no one EVER had that brilliant epiphany except you - even though we are not even remotely talking about anything which involves women dying.

We can always count on you for an absolutely meaningless waste of message space.

Which should have first priority: The woman, the fertilized egg, or the fetus?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Equal priority can be done pretty well.

... If the pregnant woman chooses.

and the newly created human being has zero choice in whether he/she lives or dies? Why not allow "abortion" up to 2 years in age? if the kid becomes inconvenient, just do away with it. That would be consistent with the position being taken by the left on this issue.

If you can read, I referred to PREGNANT women. If the “newly created human being” gets PREGNANT, then they can choose.

The issue here is when does a fertilized egg become a human being with the right to life. We can argue the details forever, but until that issue is agreed upon this will go on.

I dont know if SCOTUS will have the guts to take it on based on the Alabama law, probably not.

How about a national referendum? you on the left keep screaming that we are a true democracy, then why not put it to a national vote and let the majority view prevail? Are you ok with that?

Ethics and freedom are beyond law.
Slavery was lawful in the past, and women were not allowed to vote, by law.
Are you not grateful that ethics and freedom prevailed over unjust laws?

No, as a matter of fact, they are not, and abortion is not beyond law. The basic purpose OF law is to establish those ethics we as a society require of our members, and the boundaries which protect each person's freedoms from every other person's freedoms.

Neither slavery nor women's rights is an example of "ethics and freedom are beyond law". They are examples, instead, of how laws reflect ethics and freedom, and thus must be decided carefully, watched closely, and improved regularly.

 

[Cecilie1200]

and the newly created human being has zero choice in whether he/she lives or dies? Why not allow "abortion" up to 2 years in age? if the kid becomes inconvenient, just do away with it. That would be consistent with the position being taken by the left on this issue.

If you can read, I referred to PREGNANT women. If the “newly created human being” gets PREGNANT, then they can choose.

The issue here is when does a fertilized egg become a human being with the right to life. We can argue the details forever, but until that issue is agreed upon this will go on.

I dont know if SCOTUS will have the guts to take it on based on the Alabama law, probably not.

How about a national referendum? you on the left keep screaming that we are a true democracy, then why not put it to a national vote and let the majority view prevail? Are you ok with that?

Ethics and freedom are beyond law.
Slavery was lawful in the past, and women were not allowed to vote, by law.
Are you not grateful that ethics and freedom prevailed over unjust laws?

when did murder become ethical? when did murder equate with freedom? Under the third Reich?

so how about a national referendum? you ignored that question. Are you willing to abide by the will of the majority as you libs keep demanding?

Abortion is not “murder”.
Is a miscarriage (natural abortion) murder?
Did Trump get elected by a majority?
You are talking religion & politics.
I care more for ethics and liberty of sentient animals.

"Abortion is not murder, because unborn babies die on their own, so that means it's okay to kill them."

Seriously, were all you leftists dropped on your heads as children? Every damned one of you parrots this "miscarriage" line as though it's some triumphant "Aha!" moment that babies sometimes die in utero on their own. Is there not a single one of you with the brain wattage to recognize that EVERYONE dies on their own eventually? And that we don't consider that fact to be justification for killing each other?

This post is a shining example of what I always say: Leftists are not sentient enough themselves to safely insist that sentience should be the standard for whether or not someone can be killed.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Should a woman forced to carry a fetus receive child support, healthcare, and other benefits?

Was she smart enough to get the guy's real name before she fucked him?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Let me know when we humanoids make an endangered species list and maybe I’ll start to give a shit.

Be sure to let your local emergency room and police department know that, so they're aware that they don't need to give a shit if YOUR life is in danger, since "humanoids" aren't on "an endangered species list", so you "don't give a shit".

 

[Cecilie1200]

Women come first.

There is no 'first/'

The only danger is to her soul.

Well with saving the woman you can have more kids, killing off the woman not so much..

Thanks for contributing that utter irrelevancy to the discussion. It's so very helpful of you to point out that dead women can't have children - because no one EVER had that brilliant epiphany except you - even though we are not even remotely talking about anything which involves women dying.

We can always count on you for an absolutely meaningless waste of message space.

Which should have first priority: The woman, the fertilized egg, or the fetus?

From the OP:

This is a sincere poll. I would appreciate honest answers. If you're willing, I would also appreciate your reasons. I will not criticize your choice. I would just honestly like to know where USMB posters stand on this issue.

NOTE: I know there are many possible variables, but this poll assumes "typical" circumstances. In other words, this is a superficial poll that assumes "normal/average" circumstances - meaning no rape, incest, health, deformity, financial, or other extenuating issues.

Please note that death would be an "extenuating issue", shitforbrains.

 

[ThisIsMe]

I'm curious, if you will fight for abortion under the premise that a woman should have the right to be able to do what she wants with her own body, does that mean you should also support the legalization of drugs? After all, as long as a person does it in his own home, they should have the right to do whatever they want with their own body, right?


And before you post the "false equivalence fallacy" or "strawman" statements, please include how you came to that conclusion, afterall, we are talking about the ability to do what you want with your own body, correct?

 

[dudmuck]

Your biggest problem you have, is understanding your own publication. I already linked the definition of "life" to you through Wikipedia. What your publication is offering to you is this, that the zygote/embryo/ fetus will develop into a fully developed human being, while calling it a human being. It still is not a fully developed human being. And that is what you struggle to understand.You are simply desperate to inject an argument for your desired narrative, when you fail to understand the totality of the meanings from your own publications that you post. You don't get it, because you don't want to get it. You want to call it a human being? Knock yourself out. But even your own publication does not do that. You need to know how to understand the difference between a developing hb and a fully developed human being. Which is exactly what I have been trying to explain to you.

There you go again, using that ridiculous phrase "fully developed human being" which just shows that you STILL don't get it, and you're still putting forth your own confused ideas as fact.

No, the quotes are clear. They're all saying basically the same thing: human life begins at conception. There are numerous different stages of life - but in each of those stages, you have a genetically unique individual, living human being. And I didn't post a "publication" - I posted a variety of quotes, from different people, quotes from medical textbooks.

Again, a zygote or embryo is not supposed to look like a newborn or a child, it looks exactly like a human being is supposed to look at that stage of life.

It's getting boring trying to discuss this with you, because you're being repetitive, ignoring quotes from scientists and medical textbooks, and putting forth your own confused, politically-driven misguided ideas as fact.

Your premise, that the fetus "looks exactly like a human being is supposed to look at that stage of life", is utterly false. It's not a "human being", until it's sentient, aware, and able to breathe on its own.

Fully 1/3 of all pregnancies end in miscarriage or "spontaneous abortion". A fetus is NOT a human being. It's a potential human being, and a lot of stuff has to go right for that little zygote to make it as a fully formed human being.



Unless and until the

In your politically-driven, misguided, unscientific opinion. Honestly, to deny that the preborn is a human makes you look ignorant, I'm trying to help you here:


“….it is scientifically correct to say that human life begins at conception.”

Dr. Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard Medical School: Quoted by Public Affairs Council

*********

“The zygote is human life….there is one fact that no one can deny; Human beings begin at conception.”

Landrum B. Shettles, M.D., P.h.D., the first scientist to succeed at in vitro fertilization, from Landrum B. Shettles “Rites of Life: The Scientific Evidence for Life Before Birth” Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1983 p 40

*********

“[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm … unites with a female gamete or oocyte … to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.”

The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed. Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18:


*********

“[The zygote], formed by the union of an oocyte and a sperm, is the beginning of a new human being.”

Essentials of Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2008. p. 2.

*********

“Fertilization is the process by which male and female haploid gametes (sperm and egg) unite to produce a genetically distinct individual.”

Signorelli et al., Kinases, phosphatases and proteases during sperm capacitation, CELL TISSUE RES. 349(3):765 (Mar. 20, 2012)

*********

“The first cell of a new and unique human life begins existence at the moment of conception (fertilization) when one living sperm from the father joins with one living ovum from the mother. It is in this manner that human life passes from one generation to another. Given the appropriate environment and genetic composition, the single cell subsequently gives rise to trillions of specialized and integrated cells that compose the structures and functions of each individual human body. Every human being alive today and, as far as is known scientifically, every human being that ever existed, began his or her unique existence in this manner, i.e., as one cell. If this first cell or any subsequent configuration of cells perishes, the individual dies, ceasing to exist in matter as a living being. There are no known exceptions to this rule in the field of human biology.”

James Bopp, ed., Human Life and Health Care Ethics, vol. 2 (Frederick, MD: University Publications of America, 1985)

*********


National Institutes of Health, Medline Plus Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary (2013), http://www.merriamwebster.com/...

The government’s own definition attests to the fact that life begins at fertilization. According to the National Institutes of Health, “fertilization” is the process of union of two gametes (i.e., ovum and sperm) “whereby the somatic chromosome number is restored and the development of a new individual is initiated.”

Steven Ertelt “Undisputed Scientific Fact: Human Life Begins at Conception, or Fertilization” 11/18/13

*********

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a sperm and the resulting mingling of nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the initiation of the life of a new individual.”

Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30

*********



Rand McNally, Atlas of the Body (New York: Rand McNally, 1980) 139, 144
“In fusing together, the male and female gametes produce a fertilized single cell, the zygote, which is the start of a new individual.”
Quoted in Randy Alcorn “Pro-life Answers to Pro-Choice Arguments” (Sisters, Oregon: Multnomah Publishers, 2000)

*********


“The formation, maturation and meeting of a male and female sex cell are all preliminary to their actual union into a combined cell, or zygote, which definitely marks the beginning of a new individual. The penetration of the ovum by the spermatozoon, and the coming together and pooling of their respective nuclei, constitutes the process of fertilization.”

Leslie Brainerd Arey, “Developmental Anatomy” seventh edition space (Philadelphia: Saunders, 1974), 55

*********

Thibodeau, G.A., and Anthony, C.P., Structure and Function of the Body, 8th edition, St. Louis: Times Mirror/Mosby College Publishers, St. Louis, 1988. pages 409-419

“The science of the development of the individual before birth is called embryology. It is the story of miracles, describing the means by which a single microscopic cell is transformed into a complex human being. Genetically the zygote is complete. It represents a new single celled individual.”

*********

Carlson, Bruce M. Patten’s Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3
“Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)… The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual.”

*********

Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand’s Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943

“Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism…. At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun. ”

*********

Lennart Nilsson A Child is Born: Completely Revised Edition (Dell Publishing Co.: New York) 1986

“but the whole story does not begin with delivery. The baby has existed for months before – at first signaling its presence only with small outer signs, later on as a somewhat foreign little being which has been growing and gradually affecting the lives of those close by…”

*********

Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974

“In that fraction of a second when the chromosomes form pairs, [at conception] the sex of the new child will be determined, hereditary characteristics received from each parent will be set, and a new life will have begun.”

*********

“The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.”

Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3

*********

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual."

Human Embryology, 3rd ed. Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw Hill, 1968), 43.

congrats to you...

This is the exact moment Dud admitted he had no real arguments and fell back on childish lies and insults.

The proof us right here. Gop doest give a shit about kids.

 

[Cecilie1200]

There you go again, using that ridiculous phrase "fully developed human being" which just shows that you STILL don't get it, and you're still putting forth your own confused ideas as fact.

No, the quotes are clear. They're all saying basically the same thing: human life begins at conception. There are numerous different stages of life - but in each of those stages, you have a genetically unique individual, living human being. And I didn't post a "publication" - I posted a variety of quotes, from different people, quotes from medical textbooks.

Again, a zygote or embryo is not supposed to look like a newborn or a child, it looks exactly like a human being is supposed to look at that stage of life.

It's getting boring trying to discuss this with you, because you're being repetitive, ignoring quotes from scientists and medical textbooks, and putting forth your own confused, politically-driven misguided ideas as fact.

Your premise, that the fetus "looks exactly like a human being is supposed to look at that stage of life", is utterly false. It's not a "human being", until it's sentient, aware, and able to breathe on its own.

Fully 1/3 of all pregnancies end in miscarriage or "spontaneous abortion". A fetus is NOT a human being. It's a potential human being, and a lot of stuff has to go right for that little zygote to make it as a fully formed human being.



Unless and until the

In your politically-driven, misguided, unscientific opinion. Honestly, to deny that the preborn is a human makes you look ignorant, I'm trying to help you here:


“….it is scientifically correct to say that human life begins at conception.”

Dr. Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard Medical School: Quoted by Public Affairs Council

*********

“The zygote is human life….there is one fact that no one can deny; Human beings begin at conception.”

Landrum B. Shettles, M.D., P.h.D., the first scientist to succeed at in vitro fertilization, from Landrum B. Shettles “Rites of Life: The Scientific Evidence for Life Before Birth” Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1983 p 40

*********

“[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm … unites with a female gamete or oocyte … to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.”

The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed. Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18:


*********

“[The zygote], formed by the union of an oocyte and a sperm, is the beginning of a new human being.”

Essentials of Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2008. p. 2.

*********

“Fertilization is the process by which male and female haploid gametes (sperm and egg) unite to produce a genetically distinct individual.”

Signorelli et al., Kinases, phosphatases and proteases during sperm capacitation, CELL TISSUE RES. 349(3):765 (Mar. 20, 2012)

*********

“The first cell of a new and unique human life begins existence at the moment of conception (fertilization) when one living sperm from the father joins with one living ovum from the mother. It is in this manner that human life passes from one generation to another. Given the appropriate environment and genetic composition, the single cell subsequently gives rise to trillions of specialized and integrated cells that compose the structures and functions of each individual human body. Every human being alive today and, as far as is known scientifically, every human being that ever existed, began his or her unique existence in this manner, i.e., as one cell. If this first cell or any subsequent configuration of cells perishes, the individual dies, ceasing to exist in matter as a living being. There are no known exceptions to this rule in the field of human biology.”

James Bopp, ed., Human Life and Health Care Ethics, vol. 2 (Frederick, MD: University Publications of America, 1985)

*********


National Institutes of Health, Medline Plus Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary (2013), http://www.merriamwebster.com/...

The government’s own definition attests to the fact that life begins at fertilization. According to the National Institutes of Health, “fertilization” is the process of union of two gametes (i.e., ovum and sperm) “whereby the somatic chromosome number is restored and the development of a new individual is initiated.”

Steven Ertelt “Undisputed Scientific Fact: Human Life Begins at Conception, or Fertilization” 11/18/13

*********

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a sperm and the resulting mingling of nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the initiation of the life of a new individual.”

Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30

*********



Rand McNally, Atlas of the Body (New York: Rand McNally, 1980) 139, 144
“In fusing together, the male and female gametes produce a fertilized single cell, the zygote, which is the start of a new individual.”
Quoted in Randy Alcorn “Pro-life Answers to Pro-Choice Arguments” (Sisters, Oregon: Multnomah Publishers, 2000)

*********


“The formation, maturation and meeting of a male and female sex cell are all preliminary to their actual union into a combined cell, or zygote, which definitely marks the beginning of a new individual. The penetration of the ovum by the spermatozoon, and the coming together and pooling of their respective nuclei, constitutes the process of fertilization.”

Leslie Brainerd Arey, “Developmental Anatomy” seventh edition space (Philadelphia: Saunders, 1974), 55

*********

Thibodeau, G.A., and Anthony, C.P., Structure and Function of the Body, 8th edition, St. Louis: Times Mirror/Mosby College Publishers, St. Louis, 1988. pages 409-419

“The science of the development of the individual before birth is called embryology. It is the story of miracles, describing the means by which a single microscopic cell is transformed into a complex human being. Genetically the zygote is complete. It represents a new single celled individual.”

*********

Carlson, Bruce M. Patten’s Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3
“Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)… The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual.”

*********

Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand’s Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943

“Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism…. At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun. ”

*********

Lennart Nilsson A Child is Born: Completely Revised Edition (Dell Publishing Co.: New York) 1986

“but the whole story does not begin with delivery. The baby has existed for months before – at first signaling its presence only with small outer signs, later on as a somewhat foreign little being which has been growing and gradually affecting the lives of those close by…”

*********

Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974

“In that fraction of a second when the chromosomes form pairs, [at conception] the sex of the new child will be determined, hereditary characteristics received from each parent will be set, and a new life will have begun.”

*********

“The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.”

Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3

*********

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual."

Human Embryology, 3rd ed. Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw Hill, 1968), 43.

congrats to you...

This is the exact moment Dud admitted he had no real arguments and fell back on childish lies and insults.

The proof us right here. Gop doest give a shit about kids.

So basically, what you want is for me to blindly accept your assumption that one "cares" about people by voting tax dollars to large, faceless, complicated bureaucracies so that one does not ever have to deal with those people oneself, or even think about them except at the ballot box, where one can congratulate oneself on being a "caring, compassionate person" for checking a box?

To me, that sounds like not giving a shit about people, and just wanting to flatter your own ego without earning it.

 

[LaDairis]

This poll is flawed.

The first need is for the human species to survive.

The #1 threat to that is human overpopulation.

We should strive as a species for zero population growth.

That way, we will demonstrate more intelligence than the snakes which invaded Easter Island long ago...

The problem, of course, is that religious people are really no more intelligent than snakes....

 

[dudmuck]

Your premise, that the fetus "looks exactly like a human being is supposed to look at that stage of life", is utterly false. It's not a "human being", until it's sentient, aware, and able to breathe on its own.

Fully 1/3 of all pregnancies end in miscarriage or "spontaneous abortion". A fetus is NOT a human being. It's a potential human being, and a lot of stuff has to go right for that little zygote to make it as a fully formed human being.



Unless and until the

In your politically-driven, misguided, unscientific opinion. Honestly, to deny that the preborn is a human makes you look ignorant, I'm trying to help you here:


“….it is scientifically correct to say that human life begins at conception.”

Dr. Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard Medical School: Quoted by Public Affairs Council

*********

“The zygote is human life….there is one fact that no one can deny; Human beings begin at conception.”

Landrum B. Shettles, M.D., P.h.D., the first scientist to succeed at in vitro fertilization, from Landrum B. Shettles “Rites of Life: The Scientific Evidence for Life Before Birth” Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1983 p 40

*********

“[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm … unites with a female gamete or oocyte … to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.”

The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed. Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18:


*********

“[The zygote], formed by the union of an oocyte and a sperm, is the beginning of a new human being.”

Essentials of Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2008. p. 2.

*********

“Fertilization is the process by which male and female haploid gametes (sperm and egg) unite to produce a genetically distinct individual.”

Signorelli et al., Kinases, phosphatases and proteases during sperm capacitation, CELL TISSUE RES. 349(3):765 (Mar. 20, 2012)

*********

“The first cell of a new and unique human life begins existence at the moment of conception (fertilization) when one living sperm from the father joins with one living ovum from the mother. It is in this manner that human life passes from one generation to another. Given the appropriate environment and genetic composition, the single cell subsequently gives rise to trillions of specialized and integrated cells that compose the structures and functions of each individual human body. Every human being alive today and, as far as is known scientifically, every human being that ever existed, began his or her unique existence in this manner, i.e., as one cell. If this first cell or any subsequent configuration of cells perishes, the individual dies, ceasing to exist in matter as a living being. There are no known exceptions to this rule in the field of human biology.”

James Bopp, ed., Human Life and Health Care Ethics, vol. 2 (Frederick, MD: University Publications of America, 1985)

*********


National Institutes of Health, Medline Plus Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary (2013), http://www.merriamwebster.com/...

The government’s own definition attests to the fact that life begins at fertilization. According to the National Institutes of Health, “fertilization” is the process of union of two gametes (i.e., ovum and sperm) “whereby the somatic chromosome number is restored and the development of a new individual is initiated.”

Steven Ertelt “Undisputed Scientific Fact: Human Life Begins at Conception, or Fertilization” 11/18/13

*********

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a sperm and the resulting mingling of nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the initiation of the life of a new individual.”

Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30

*********



Rand McNally, Atlas of the Body (New York: Rand McNally, 1980) 139, 144
“In fusing together, the male and female gametes produce a fertilized single cell, the zygote, which is the start of a new individual.”
Quoted in Randy Alcorn “Pro-life Answers to Pro-Choice Arguments” (Sisters, Oregon: Multnomah Publishers, 2000)

*********


“The formation, maturation and meeting of a male and female sex cell are all preliminary to their actual union into a combined cell, or zygote, which definitely marks the beginning of a new individual. The penetration of the ovum by the spermatozoon, and the coming together and pooling of their respective nuclei, constitutes the process of fertilization.”

Leslie Brainerd Arey, “Developmental Anatomy” seventh edition space (Philadelphia: Saunders, 1974), 55

*********

Thibodeau, G.A., and Anthony, C.P., Structure and Function of the Body, 8th edition, St. Louis: Times Mirror/Mosby College Publishers, St. Louis, 1988. pages 409-419

“The science of the development of the individual before birth is called embryology. It is the story of miracles, describing the means by which a single microscopic cell is transformed into a complex human being. Genetically the zygote is complete. It represents a new single celled individual.”

*********

Carlson, Bruce M. Patten’s Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3
“Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)… The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual.”

*********

Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand’s Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943

“Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism…. At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun. ”

*********

Lennart Nilsson A Child is Born: Completely Revised Edition (Dell Publishing Co.: New York) 1986

“but the whole story does not begin with delivery. The baby has existed for months before – at first signaling its presence only with small outer signs, later on as a somewhat foreign little being which has been growing and gradually affecting the lives of those close by…”

*********

Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974

“In that fraction of a second when the chromosomes form pairs, [at conception] the sex of the new child will be determined, hereditary characteristics received from each parent will be set, and a new life will have begun.”

*********

“The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.”

Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3

*********

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual."

Human Embryology, 3rd ed. Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw Hill, 1968), 43.

congrats to you...

This is the exact moment Dud admitted he had no real arguments and fell back on childish lies and insults.

The proof us right here. Gop doest give a shit about kids.

So basically, what you want is for me to blindly accept your assumption that one "cares" about people by voting tax dollars to large, faceless, complicated bureaucracies so that one does not ever have to deal with those people oneself, or even think about them except at the ballot box, where one can congratulate oneself on being a "caring, compassionate person" for checking a box?

To me, that sounds like not giving a shit about people, and just wanting to flatter your own ego without earning it.

youre saying we cant support the children because they're being supported by a large, faceless, complicated bureaucracy?

 

[Moonglow]

Women come first.

There is no 'first/'

The only danger is to her soul.

Well with saving the woman you can have more kids, killing off the woman not so much..

Thanks for contributing that utter irrelevancy to the discussion. It's so very helpful of you to point out that dead women can't have children - because no one EVER had that brilliant epiphany except you - even though we are not even remotely talking about anything which involves women dying.

We can always count on you for an absolutely meaningless waste of message space.

Which should have first priority: The woman, the fertilized egg, or the fetus?

From the OP:

This is a sincere poll. I would appreciate honest answers. If you're willing, I would also appreciate your reasons. I will not criticize your choice. I would just honestly like to know where USMB posters stand on this issue.

NOTE: I know there are many possible variables, but this poll assumes "typical" circumstances. In other words, this is a superficial poll that assumes "normal/average" circumstances - meaning no rape, incest, health, deformity, financial, or other extenuating issues.

Please note that death would be an "extenuating issue", shitforbrains.

It is if you want more kids from a dead woman....Now continue to split hairs cause you be bored.

 

[Cecilie1200]

In your politically-driven, misguided, unscientific opinion. Honestly, to deny that the preborn is a human makes you look ignorant, I'm trying to help you here:


“….it is scientifically correct to say that human life begins at conception.”

Dr. Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard Medical School: Quoted by Public Affairs Council

*********

“The zygote is human life….there is one fact that no one can deny; Human beings begin at conception.”

Landrum B. Shettles, M.D., P.h.D., the first scientist to succeed at in vitro fertilization, from Landrum B. Shettles “Rites of Life: The Scientific Evidence for Life Before Birth” Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1983 p 40

*********

“[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm … unites with a female gamete or oocyte … to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.”

The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed. Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18:


*********

“[The zygote], formed by the union of an oocyte and a sperm, is the beginning of a new human being.”

Essentials of Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2008. p. 2.

*********

“Fertilization is the process by which male and female haploid gametes (sperm and egg) unite to produce a genetically distinct individual.”

Signorelli et al., Kinases, phosphatases and proteases during sperm capacitation, CELL TISSUE RES. 349(3):765 (Mar. 20, 2012)

*********

“The first cell of a new and unique human life begins existence at the moment of conception (fertilization) when one living sperm from the father joins with one living ovum from the mother. It is in this manner that human life passes from one generation to another. Given the appropriate environment and genetic composition, the single cell subsequently gives rise to trillions of specialized and integrated cells that compose the structures and functions of each individual human body. Every human being alive today and, as far as is known scientifically, every human being that ever existed, began his or her unique existence in this manner, i.e., as one cell. If this first cell or any subsequent configuration of cells perishes, the individual dies, ceasing to exist in matter as a living being. There are no known exceptions to this rule in the field of human biology.”

James Bopp, ed., Human Life and Health Care Ethics, vol. 2 (Frederick, MD: University Publications of America, 1985)

*********


National Institutes of Health, Medline Plus Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary (2013), http://www.merriamwebster.com/...

The government’s own definition attests to the fact that life begins at fertilization. According to the National Institutes of Health, “fertilization” is the process of union of two gametes (i.e., ovum and sperm) “whereby the somatic chromosome number is restored and the development of a new individual is initiated.”

Steven Ertelt “Undisputed Scientific Fact: Human Life Begins at Conception, or Fertilization” 11/18/13

*********

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a sperm and the resulting mingling of nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the initiation of the life of a new individual.”

Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30

*********



Rand McNally, Atlas of the Body (New York: Rand McNally, 1980) 139, 144
“In fusing together, the male and female gametes produce a fertilized single cell, the zygote, which is the start of a new individual.”
Quoted in Randy Alcorn “Pro-life Answers to Pro-Choice Arguments” (Sisters, Oregon: Multnomah Publishers, 2000)

*********


“The formation, maturation and meeting of a male and female sex cell are all preliminary to their actual union into a combined cell, or zygote, which definitely marks the beginning of a new individual. The penetration of the ovum by the spermatozoon, and the coming together and pooling of their respective nuclei, constitutes the process of fertilization.”

Leslie Brainerd Arey, “Developmental Anatomy” seventh edition space (Philadelphia: Saunders, 1974), 55

*********

Thibodeau, G.A., and Anthony, C.P., Structure and Function of the Body, 8th edition, St. Louis: Times Mirror/Mosby College Publishers, St. Louis, 1988. pages 409-419

“The science of the development of the individual before birth is called embryology. It is the story of miracles, describing the means by which a single microscopic cell is transformed into a complex human being. Genetically the zygote is complete. It represents a new single celled individual.”

*********

Carlson, Bruce M. Patten’s Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3
“Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)… The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual.”

*********

Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand’s Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943

“Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism…. At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun. ”

*********

Lennart Nilsson A Child is Born: Completely Revised Edition (Dell Publishing Co.: New York) 1986

“but the whole story does not begin with delivery. The baby has existed for months before – at first signaling its presence only with small outer signs, later on as a somewhat foreign little being which has been growing and gradually affecting the lives of those close by…”

*********

Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974

“In that fraction of a second when the chromosomes form pairs, [at conception] the sex of the new child will be determined, hereditary characteristics received from each parent will be set, and a new life will have begun.”

*********

“The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.”

Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3

*********

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual."

Human Embryology, 3rd ed. Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw Hill, 1968), 43.

congrats to you...

This is the exact moment Dud admitted he had no real arguments and fell back on childish lies and insults.

The proof us right here. Gop doest give a shit about kids.

So basically, what you want is for me to blindly accept your assumption that one "cares" about people by voting tax dollars to large, faceless, complicated bureaucracies so that one does not ever have to deal with those people oneself, or even think about them except at the ballot box, where one can congratulate oneself on being a "caring, compassionate person" for checking a box?

To me, that sounds like not giving a shit about people, and just wanting to flatter your own ego without earning it.

youre saying we cant support the children because they're being supported by a large, faceless, complicated bureaucracy?

I'm saying that your idea of "caring" for people looks remarkably like wanting to SAY you care about them without having to really do anything. Cheap, easy ego fluffing.

Furthermore, even if it were true that we "only" care about them when they're unborn, I will still happily rank myself higher morally than someone who wants them dead, or just honestly doesn't give a shit whether they live or die.

 

[Cecilie1200]

There is no 'first/'

The only danger is to her soul.

Well with saving the woman you can have more kids, killing off the woman not so much..

Thanks for contributing that utter irrelevancy to the discussion. It's so very helpful of you to point out that dead women can't have children - because no one EVER had that brilliant epiphany except you - even though we are not even remotely talking about anything which involves women dying.

We can always count on you for an absolutely meaningless waste of message space.

Which should have first priority: The woman, the fertilized egg, or the fetus?

From the OP:

This is a sincere poll. I would appreciate honest answers. If you're willing, I would also appreciate your reasons. I will not criticize your choice. I would just honestly like to know where USMB posters stand on this issue.

NOTE: I know there are many possible variables, but this poll assumes "typical" circumstances. In other words, this is a superficial poll that assumes "normal/average" circumstances - meaning no rape, incest, health, deformity, financial, or other extenuating issues.

Please note that death would be an "extenuating issue", shitforbrains.

It is if you want more kids from a dead woman....Now continue to split hairs cause you be bored.

Continue to try to deflect away from a topic you can't address 'cause you're chickenshit.

As usual, you signaled defeat just by opening your mouth.

 

[dudmuck]

congrats to you...

This is the exact moment Dud admitted he had no real arguments and fell back on childish lies and insults.

The proof us right here. Gop doest give a shit about kids.

So basically, what you want is for me to blindly accept your assumption that one "cares" about people by voting tax dollars to large, faceless, complicated bureaucracies so that one does not ever have to deal with those people oneself, or even think about them except at the ballot box, where one can congratulate oneself on being a "caring, compassionate person" for checking a box?

To me, that sounds like not giving a shit about people, and just wanting to flatter your own ego without earning it.

youre saying we cant support the children because they're being supported by a large, faceless, complicated bureaucracy?

I'm saying that your idea of "caring" for people looks remarkably like wanting to SAY you care about them without having to really do anything. Cheap, easy ego fluffing.

Furthermore, even if it were true that we "only" care about them when they're unborn, I will still happily rank myself higher morally than someone who wants them dead, or just honestly doesn't give a shit whether they live or die.

Trump just killed children's health, so perhaps the redcaps dont really care if they live or die.

 

[Cecilie1200]

This is the exact moment Dud admitted he had no real arguments and fell back on childish lies and insults.

The proof us right here. Gop doest give a shit about kids.

So basically, what you want is for me to blindly accept your assumption that one "cares" about people by voting tax dollars to large, faceless, complicated bureaucracies so that one does not ever have to deal with those people oneself, or even think about them except at the ballot box, where one can congratulate oneself on being a "caring, compassionate person" for checking a box?

To me, that sounds like not giving a shit about people, and just wanting to flatter your own ego without earning it.

youre saying we cant support the children because they're being supported by a large, faceless, complicated bureaucracy?

I'm saying that your idea of "caring" for people looks remarkably like wanting to SAY you care about them without having to really do anything. Cheap, easy ego fluffing.

Furthermore, even if it were true that we "only" care about them when they're unborn, I will still happily rank myself higher morally than someone who wants them dead, or just honestly doesn't give a shit whether they live or die.

Trump just killed children's health, so perhaps the redcaps dont really care if they live or die.

Just curious: who do you blame for killing all your brain cells? Was it a fetal alcohol thing, or some sort of deliberate electroshock situation?

There's no point at which "Look at the taxes we want the government to spend, and the Republicans don't" which is going to counter the accusation that you only "care" about people by voting for someone else to actually do the hard lifting for you to feel good. You basically just affirmed my assertion about you, so thanks for making my argument.

Also, I still have no intention of justifying my morality to the likes of someone who is championing the right to kill babies. You keep attempting to pass judgement on me as though you can have the standing to do so just by assuming you do. I will not defend myself to you or any other putrescent pro-abort, because I reject categorically any pretense that you are good enough to compare to me, let alone criticize me.

To paraphrase one of my favorite TV characters, I'm not questioning your morality; I'm denying its existence.

 

[Moonglow]

Well with saving the woman you can have more kids, killing off the woman not so much..

Thanks for contributing that utter irrelevancy to the discussion. It's so very helpful of you to point out that dead women can't have children - because no one EVER had that brilliant epiphany except you - even though we are not even remotely talking about anything which involves women dying.

We can always count on you for an absolutely meaningless waste of message space.

Which should have first priority: The woman, the fertilized egg, or the fetus?

From the OP:

This is a sincere poll. I would appreciate honest answers. If you're willing, I would also appreciate your reasons. I will not criticize your choice. I would just honestly like to know where USMB posters stand on this issue.

NOTE: I know there are many possible variables, but this poll assumes "typical" circumstances. In other words, this is a superficial poll that assumes "normal/average" circumstances - meaning no rape, incest, health, deformity, financial, or other extenuating issues.

Please note that death would be an "extenuating issue", shitforbrains.

It is if you want more kids from a dead woman....Now continue to split hairs cause you be bored.

Continue to try to deflect away from a topic you can't address 'cause you're chickenshit.

As usual, you signaled defeat just by opening your mouth.

I said the woman whether you like it or not..

 

[Cecilie1200]

Thanks for contributing that utter irrelevancy to the discussion. It's so very helpful of you to point out that dead women can't have children - because no one EVER had that brilliant epiphany except you - even though we are not even remotely talking about anything which involves women dying.

We can always count on you for an absolutely meaningless waste of message space.

Which should have first priority: The woman, the fertilized egg, or the fetus?

From the OP:

This is a sincere poll. I would appreciate honest answers. If you're willing, I would also appreciate your reasons. I will not criticize your choice. I would just honestly like to know where USMB posters stand on this issue.

NOTE: I know there are many possible variables, but this poll assumes "typical" circumstances. In other words, this is a superficial poll that assumes "normal/average" circumstances - meaning no rape, incest, health, deformity, financial, or other extenuating issues.

Please note that death would be an "extenuating issue", shitforbrains.

It is if you want more kids from a dead woman....Now continue to split hairs cause you be bored.

Continue to try to deflect away from a topic you can't address 'cause you're chickenshit.

As usual, you signaled defeat just by opening your mouth.

I said the woman whether you like it or not..

I said the utterings of your face anus are useless, and not worthy of liking OR disliking. By all means, if pretending that being told you're a blathering moron is somehow an acknowledgement of your "incisive wit" keeps you from jumping off a bridge in despair and thus backing up city traffic for people who ACTUALLY matter, then go for it.

 

[Moonglow]

Which should have first priority: The woman, the fertilized egg, or the fetus?

From the OP:

This is a sincere poll. I would appreciate honest answers. If you're willing, I would also appreciate your reasons. I will not criticize your choice. I would just honestly like to know where USMB posters stand on this issue.

NOTE: I know there are many possible variables, but this poll assumes "typical" circumstances. In other words, this is a superficial poll that assumes "normal/average" circumstances - meaning no rape, incest, health, deformity, financial, or other extenuating issues.

Please note that death would be an "extenuating issue", shitforbrains.

It is if you want more kids from a dead woman....Now continue to split hairs cause you be bored.

Continue to try to deflect away from a topic you can't address 'cause you're chickenshit.

As usual, you signaled defeat just by opening your mouth.

I said the woman whether you like it or not..

I said the utterings of your face anus are useless, and not worthy of liking OR disliking. By all means, if pretending that being told your blathering moron is somehow an acknowledgement of your "incisive wit" keeps you from jumping off a bridge in despair and thus backing up city traffic for people who ACTUALLY matter, then go for it.

Eww,do you kiss God with that mouth? I bet he hates seeing you asking for forgiveness..