Which Religion Has More To Offer Men?

[Vastator]

That’s allegedly promised after death, if conditions are met. This question pertains to the here, and now.

So I would assume Islam. I don't know specifically what Islam teaches about what they 'offer' in the here and now... but I do know that what Christianity teaches.

The here and now, is not what Christianity is about. Christianity is entirely about what comes after. There are numerous proverbs, and statements, that indicate this in the Bible.

Matthew 6: Jesus says-

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.​

Or you can look at James 4:14

You do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.​

Or you can look at Hebrews 9:27

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment​

Psalm 90:9

All our days pass away under your wrath; we finish our years with a moan.​

And there are honestly hundreds of verses that all point to the fact that this life, is not the big thing. This life is the chance to get ready for the big thing.

The big thing is what comes after this life.

Ecclesiastes is my favorite book of the Bible, because it points out the reality of life. 9:9

Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun--all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.​

Bible believing Christians are not trying to make this life our utopia, and we're not Christians because we are hoping G-d will give us stuff here.

We are waiting for the return of Christ, and a future in Heaven where there is no pain, no suffering, no illness, no old age, no terrible diseases, no betrayal, and back stabbing, no evil at all.

This is why 21 Coptic Christians from Egypt were captured and beheaded by ISIS in 2015, made no sound on the sandy beach in Libya before they had their heads cut off. I know, I watched the video ISIS put out of the slaughter.

If they became a Christian, because of what Christianity offered them in this life, they should have contacted the authorities to press fraud charges.

No, they became a Christian because in eternity, they will be rewarded for their faithfulness right up to the end.

Now that doesn't mean all Christians will be martyred. Obviously Christians in many parts of the world, live very good lives relative to others. But that is still not the focus of Christianity.

So if all your asking about, it what does Christianity offer you here in now... not much. G-d promises very little, except that he will be with you in the dark times, help you through the suffering, and walk with in this life up to the end.

Thank you for directly answering the question.

 

[pismoe]

it's all fake crap anyway ...made up by humans--not ''god''.... ''allah'' ...etc...

That's irrelevant. Both exist. As such which religion offers more to men than the other. You can even elaborate between how its written, and how it's actually practiced, if that effected your choice.

It's an either, or proposition folks. You can even add your caveats, and "yeah-buts". Its not a tough question....
Or is it?

-------------------------------------- EASY Question and a good question. No one wants to answer it out in the open though . Course i'm still at the opening post but I think that the answer for most PRACTICAL men is obvious Vastator .

 

[pismoe]

still not many straight up answers to the actual question eh Vastator or did I miss them somewhere in the 20 - 21 pages ?? I was gone for an hour or 2 .

 

[Vastator]

still not many straight up answers to the actual question eh Vastator or did I miss them somewhere in the 20 - 21 pages ?? I was gone for an hour or 2 .

Just a handful throughout. Mostly short one liners. The only two of real thought or substance were in the last page or two. It’s been a fascinating thread, with truly unexpected results. From the playing dumb, as though posters didn’t understand the question, to the passionate obfuscation, and attempts the change the subject... Even pleas to to reword or reframe the question..? The question even seemed to make one poster angry. Very unexpected responses.
Even more surprising was the responses it didn’t get, that I thought there would be many of. Overall? Very few people attempted to honestly answer the question as presented. But 20 pages+ in under 24 hrs shows that it was clearly thought provoking. But it seems that for the most part; people are keeping their true thoughts to themselves...

 

[Vastator]

still not many straight up answers to the actual question eh Vastator or did I miss them somewhere in the 20 - 21 pages ?? I was gone for an hour or 2 .

One interesting observation is the vote count. As of this writing there were six votes for Christianity, but there haven’t been six applicable answers given by posters in favor of Christianity... Hmmm... Why would they keep the answer as it pertains to the question, to themselves?

 

[LittleNipper]

Mark 8:36-38 King James Version (KJV)
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

 

[SweetSue92]

still not many straight up answers to the actual question eh Vastator or did I miss them somewhere in the 20 - 21 pages ?? I was gone for an hour or 2 .

Just a handful throughout. Mostly short one liners. The only two of real thought or substance were in the last page or two. It’s been a fascinating thread, with truly unexpected results. From the playing dumb, as though posters didn’t understand the question, to the passionate obfuscation, and attempts the change the subject... Even pleas to to reword or reframe the question..? The question even seemed to make one poster angry. Very unexpected responses.
Even more surprising was the responses it didn’t get, that I thought there would be many of. Overall? Very few people attempted to honestly answer the question as presented. But 20 pages+ in under 24 hrs shows that it was clearly thought provoking. But it seems that for the most part; people are keeping their true thoughts to themselves...

Dude you already have your own religion and you're the god of it.

So do that, then.

 

[Vastator]

That’s allegedly promised after death, if conditions are met. This question pertains to the here, and now.

So I would assume Islam. I don't know specifically what Islam teaches about what they 'offer' in the here and now... but I do know that what Christianity teaches.

The here and now, is not what Christianity is about. Christianity is entirely about what comes after. There are numerous proverbs, and statements, that indicate this in the Bible.

Matthew 6: Jesus says-

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.​

Or you can look at James 4:14

You do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.​

Or you can look at Hebrews 9:27

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment​

Psalm 90:9

All our days pass away under your wrath; we finish our years with a moan.​

And there are honestly hundreds of verses that all point to the fact that this life, is not the big thing. This life is the chance to get ready for the big thing.

The big thing is what comes after this life.

Ecclesiastes is my favorite book of the Bible, because it points out the reality of life. 9:9

Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun--all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.​

Bible believing Christians are not trying to make this life our utopia, and we're not Christians because we are hoping G-d will give us stuff here.

We are waiting for the return of Christ, and a future in Heaven where there is no pain, no suffering, no illness, no old age, no terrible diseases, no betrayal, and back stabbing, no evil at all.

This is why 21 Coptic Christians from Egypt were captured and beheaded by ISIS in 2015, made no sound on the sandy beach in Libya before they had their heads cut off. I know, I watched the video ISIS put out of the slaughter.

If they became a Christian, because of what Christianity offered them in this life, they should have contacted the authorities to press fraud charges.

No, they became a Christian because in eternity, they will be rewarded for their faithfulness right up to the end.

Now that doesn't mean all Christians will be martyred. Obviously Christians in many parts of the world, live very good lives relative to others. But that is still not the focus of Christianity.

So if all your asking about, it what does Christianity offer you here in now... not much. G-d promises very little, except that he will be with you in the dark times, help you through the suffering, and walk with in this life up to the end.

For an outsider, looking in... Taking your contributions into account, coupled with the real life reality modern Western family life... Majority of marriages ending in divorce, most girls are whores by the standards of the West of only a couple generations ago, the list goes on... Islam by contrast seems to offer greater stability. Which is an important factor one considers when thinking about the future, and the future of their progeny.
So with that in mind, and considering not only the shrinking number of actually “practicing” Christians in our ever more secular culture; but also its pacifist turn the other cheek ideology; how does Christianity hope to stay relevant when it can’t offer someone something better in life?
Islam on the other hand for all its many faults (and there are lots!), typically has more stable family units, and greater generational stability. Not only that; but they are willing to kill, fight, and die to preserve it. Not only willing... but it’s built into their faith/ideology. As such it’s not susceptible to being watered down by popular opinion, or the latest form of activism.
So if one had to pick a side, where do you think the long term viability is between the two?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

That’s allegedly promised after death, if conditions are met. This question pertains to the here, and now.

So I would assume Islam. I don't know specifically what Islam teaches about what they 'offer' in the here and now... but I do know that what Christianity teaches.

The here and now, is not what Christianity is about. Christianity is entirely about what comes after. There are numerous proverbs, and statements, that indicate this in the Bible.

Matthew 6: Jesus says-

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.​

Or you can look at James 4:14

You do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.​

Or you can look at Hebrews 9:27

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment​

Psalm 90:9

All our days pass away under your wrath; we finish our years with a moan.​

And there are honestly hundreds of verses that all point to the fact that this life, is not the big thing. This life is the chance to get ready for the big thing.

The big thing is what comes after this life.

Ecclesiastes is my favorite book of the Bible, because it points out the reality of life. 9:9

Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun--all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.​

Bible believing Christians are not trying to make this life our utopia, and we're not Christians because we are hoping G-d will give us stuff here.

We are waiting for the return of Christ, and a future in Heaven where there is no pain, no suffering, no illness, no old age, no terrible diseases, no betrayal, and back stabbing, no evil at all.

This is why 21 Coptic Christians from Egypt were captured and beheaded by ISIS in 2015, made no sound on the sandy beach in Libya before they had their heads cut off. I know, I watched the video ISIS put out of the slaughter.

If they became a Christian, because of what Christianity offered them in this life, they should have contacted the authorities to press fraud charges.

No, they became a Christian because in eternity, they will be rewarded for their faithfulness right up to the end.

Now that doesn't mean all Christians will be martyred. Obviously Christians in many parts of the world, live very good lives relative to others. But that is still not the focus of Christianity.

So if all your asking about, it what does Christianity offer you here in now... not much. G-d promises very little, except that he will be with you in the dark times, help you through the suffering, and walk with in this life up to the end.

For an outsider, looking in... Taking your contributions into account, coupled with the real life reality modern Western family life... Majority of marriages ending in divorce, most girls are whores by the standards of the West of only a couple generations ago, the list goes on... Islam by contrast seems to offer greater stability. Which is an important factor one considers when thinking about the future, and the future of their progeny.
So with that in mind, and considering not only the shrinking number of actually “practicing” Christians in our ever more secular culture; but also its pacifist turn the other cheek ideology; how does Christianity hope to stay relevant when it can’t offer someone something better in life?
Islam on the other hand for all its many faults (and there are lots!), typically has more stable family units, and greater generational stability. Not only that; but they are willing to kill, fight, and die to preserve it. Not only willing... but it’s built into their faith/ideology. As such it’s not susceptible to being watered down by popular opinion, or the latest form of activism.
So if one had to pick a side, where do you think the long term viability is between the two?

You've been subjected to the wrong denominations of Christianity.

Look at all those qualities that you admire about the Muslims: "more stable family units, and greater generational stability. Not only that; but they are willing to kill, fight, and die to preserve it. Not only willing... but it’s built into their faith/ideology. As such it’s not susceptible to being watered down by popular opinion, or the latest form of activism."

Suppose you met a group of Christians that met such a standard. What then?

 

[SweetSue92]

That’s allegedly promised after death, if conditions are met. This question pertains to the here, and now.

So I would assume Islam. I don't know specifically what Islam teaches about what they 'offer' in the here and now... but I do know that what Christianity teaches.

The here and now, is not what Christianity is about. Christianity is entirely about what comes after. There are numerous proverbs, and statements, that indicate this in the Bible.

Matthew 6: Jesus says-

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.​

Or you can look at James 4:14

You do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.​

Or you can look at Hebrews 9:27

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment​

Psalm 90:9

All our days pass away under your wrath; we finish our years with a moan.​

And there are honestly hundreds of verses that all point to the fact that this life, is not the big thing. This life is the chance to get ready for the big thing.

The big thing is what comes after this life.

Ecclesiastes is my favorite book of the Bible, because it points out the reality of life. 9:9

Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun--all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.​

Bible believing Christians are not trying to make this life our utopia, and we're not Christians because we are hoping G-d will give us stuff here.

We are waiting for the return of Christ, and a future in Heaven where there is no pain, no suffering, no illness, no old age, no terrible diseases, no betrayal, and back stabbing, no evil at all.

This is why 21 Coptic Christians from Egypt were captured and beheaded by ISIS in 2015, made no sound on the sandy beach in Libya before they had their heads cut off. I know, I watched the video ISIS put out of the slaughter.

If they became a Christian, because of what Christianity offered them in this life, they should have contacted the authorities to press fraud charges.

No, they became a Christian because in eternity, they will be rewarded for their faithfulness right up to the end.

Now that doesn't mean all Christians will be martyred. Obviously Christians in many parts of the world, live very good lives relative to others. But that is still not the focus of Christianity.

So if all your asking about, it what does Christianity offer you here in now... not much. G-d promises very little, except that he will be with you in the dark times, help you through the suffering, and walk with in this life up to the end.

For an outsider, looking in... Taking your contributions into account, coupled with the real life reality modern Western family life... Majority of marriages ending in divorce, most girls are whores by the standards of the West of only a couple generations ago, the list goes on... Islam by contrast seems to offer greater stability. Which is an important factor one considers when thinking about the future, and the future of their progeny.
So with that in mind, and considering not only the shrinking number of actually “practicing” Christians in our ever more secular culture; but also its pacifist turn the other cheek ideology; how does Christianity hope to stay relevant when it can’t offer someone something better in life?
Islam on the other hand for all its many faults (and there are lots!), typically has more stable family units, and greater generational stability. Not only that; but they are willing to kill, fight, and die to preserve it. Not only willing... but it’s built into their faith/ideology. As such it’s not susceptible to being watered down by popular opinion, or the latest form of activism.
So if one had to pick a side, where do you think the long term viability is between the two?

You argue like this: you make false premises, build shadow arguments on them, and then if someone doesn't agree with your false premises they have failed your arguments. It would be like this:

"I'm trying to decide which really is the most healthy food on the planet: vanilla or chocolate ice cream"

"Dude neither. They are both decent in terms of calcium and some protein, but also full of fat and sugar, and nutritionally not very dense."

"You're not answering my question."

"That's because your question is stupid. Ice cream is not that healthy."

"I find your answer hilarious and fascinating."

That is exactly how you argue. Honestly for all your chest-beating, you don't argue well. At all.

 

[Vastator]

That’s allegedly promised after death, if conditions are met. This question pertains to the here, and now.

So I would assume Islam. I don't know specifically what Islam teaches about what they 'offer' in the here and now... but I do know that what Christianity teaches.

The here and now, is not what Christianity is about. Christianity is entirely about what comes after. There are numerous proverbs, and statements, that indicate this in the Bible.

Matthew 6: Jesus says-

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.​

Or you can look at James 4:14

You do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.​

Or you can look at Hebrews 9:27

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment​

Psalm 90:9

All our days pass away under your wrath; we finish our years with a moan.​

And there are honestly hundreds of verses that all point to the fact that this life, is not the big thing. This life is the chance to get ready for the big thing.

The big thing is what comes after this life.

Ecclesiastes is my favorite book of the Bible, because it points out the reality of life. 9:9

Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun--all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.​

Bible believing Christians are not trying to make this life our utopia, and we're not Christians because we are hoping G-d will give us stuff here.

We are waiting for the return of Christ, and a future in Heaven where there is no pain, no suffering, no illness, no old age, no terrible diseases, no betrayal, and back stabbing, no evil at all.

This is why 21 Coptic Christians from Egypt were captured and beheaded by ISIS in 2015, made no sound on the sandy beach in Libya before they had their heads cut off. I know, I watched the video ISIS put out of the slaughter.

If they became a Christian, because of what Christianity offered them in this life, they should have contacted the authorities to press fraud charges.

No, they became a Christian because in eternity, they will be rewarded for their faithfulness right up to the end.

Now that doesn't mean all Christians will be martyred. Obviously Christians in many parts of the world, live very good lives relative to others. But that is still not the focus of Christianity.

So if all your asking about, it what does Christianity offer you here in now... not much. G-d promises very little, except that he will be with you in the dark times, help you through the suffering, and walk with in this life up to the end.

For an outsider, looking in... Taking your contributions into account, coupled with the real life reality modern Western family life... Majority of marriages ending in divorce, most girls are whores by the standards of the West of only a couple generations ago, the list goes on... Islam by contrast seems to offer greater stability. Which is an important factor one considers when thinking about the future, and the future of their progeny.
So with that in mind, and considering not only the shrinking number of actually “practicing” Christians in our ever more secular culture; but also its pacifist turn the other cheek ideology; how does Christianity hope to stay relevant when it can’t offer someone something better in life?
Islam on the other hand for all its many faults (and there are lots!), typically has more stable family units, and greater generational stability. Not only that; but they are willing to kill, fight, and die to preserve it. Not only willing... but it’s built into their faith/ideology. As such it’s not susceptible to being watered down by popular opinion, or the latest form of activism.
So if one had to pick a side, where do you think the long term viability is between the two?

You've been subjected to the wrong denominations of Christianity.

Look at all those qualities that you admire about the Muslims: "more stable family units, and greater generational stability. Not only that; but they are willing to kill, fight, and die to preserve it. Not only willing... but it’s built into their faith/ideology. As such it’s not susceptible to being watered down by popular opinion, or the latest form of activism."

Suppose you met a group of Christians that met such a standard. What then?

We'd all know them by name. Muslims would call them out by name and swear they were the Devil incarnate. Their birth rate would be on the rise, and other Christians would emulate them if they wanted their religion To exist 250-300 years from now...

 

[Vastator]

That’s allegedly promised after death, if conditions are met. This question pertains to the here, and now.

So I would assume Islam. I don't know specifically what Islam teaches about what they 'offer' in the here and now... but I do know that what Christianity teaches.

The here and now, is not what Christianity is about. Christianity is entirely about what comes after. There are numerous proverbs, and statements, that indicate this in the Bible.

Matthew 6: Jesus says-

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.​

Or you can look at James 4:14

You do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.​

Or you can look at Hebrews 9:27

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment​

Psalm 90:9

All our days pass away under your wrath; we finish our years with a moan.​

And there are honestly hundreds of verses that all point to the fact that this life, is not the big thing. This life is the chance to get ready for the big thing.

The big thing is what comes after this life.

Ecclesiastes is my favorite book of the Bible, because it points out the reality of life. 9:9

Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun--all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.​

Bible believing Christians are not trying to make this life our utopia, and we're not Christians because we are hoping G-d will give us stuff here.

We are waiting for the return of Christ, and a future in Heaven where there is no pain, no suffering, no illness, no old age, no terrible diseases, no betrayal, and back stabbing, no evil at all.

This is why 21 Coptic Christians from Egypt were captured and beheaded by ISIS in 2015, made no sound on the sandy beach in Libya before they had their heads cut off. I know, I watched the video ISIS put out of the slaughter.

If they became a Christian, because of what Christianity offered them in this life, they should have contacted the authorities to press fraud charges.

No, they became a Christian because in eternity, they will be rewarded for their faithfulness right up to the end.

Now that doesn't mean all Christians will be martyred. Obviously Christians in many parts of the world, live very good lives relative to others. But that is still not the focus of Christianity.

So if all your asking about, it what does Christianity offer you here in now... not much. G-d promises very little, except that he will be with you in the dark times, help you through the suffering, and walk with in this life up to the end.

For an outsider, looking in... Taking your contributions into account, coupled with the real life reality modern Western family life... Majority of marriages ending in divorce, most girls are whores by the standards of the West of only a couple generations ago, the list goes on... Islam by contrast seems to offer greater stability. Which is an important factor one considers when thinking about the future, and the future of their progeny.
So with that in mind, and considering not only the shrinking number of actually “practicing” Christians in our ever more secular culture; but also its pacifist turn the other cheek ideology; how does Christianity hope to stay relevant when it can’t offer someone something better in life?
Islam on the other hand for all its many faults (and there are lots!), typically has more stable family units, and greater generational stability. Not only that; but they are willing to kill, fight, and die to preserve it. Not only willing... but it’s built into their faith/ideology. As such it’s not susceptible to being watered down by popular opinion, or the latest form of activism.
So if one had to pick a side, where do you think the long term viability is between the two?

You've been subjected to the wrong denominations of Christianity.

Nah. I haven’t been subject to anything. I’m just subjectively looking at current data points, projections and trends. Again. This isn’t about “me”. This is about our subject for the purpose of this thread. The modern day agnostic in modern Western Culture. These are things they are absolutely going to weigh, and consider. Just a few of the things...
There is an ever growing population in western countries, of people who don’t identify as “religious”, but don’t identify as atheist. That’s a market. In the long term something is bound to come along, and satisfy that market.

 

[james bond]

Not atheism .

 

[Porter Rockwell]

That’s allegedly promised after death, if conditions are met. This question pertains to the here, and now.

So I would assume Islam. I don't know specifically what Islam teaches about what they 'offer' in the here and now... but I do know that what Christianity teaches.

The here and now, is not what Christianity is about. Christianity is entirely about what comes after. There are numerous proverbs, and statements, that indicate this in the Bible.

Matthew 6: Jesus says-

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.​

Or you can look at James 4:14

You do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.​

Or you can look at Hebrews 9:27

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment​

Psalm 90:9

All our days pass away under your wrath; we finish our years with a moan.​

And there are honestly hundreds of verses that all point to the fact that this life, is not the big thing. This life is the chance to get ready for the big thing.

The big thing is what comes after this life.

Ecclesiastes is my favorite book of the Bible, because it points out the reality of life. 9:9

Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun--all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.​

Bible believing Christians are not trying to make this life our utopia, and we're not Christians because we are hoping G-d will give us stuff here.

We are waiting for the return of Christ, and a future in Heaven where there is no pain, no suffering, no illness, no old age, no terrible diseases, no betrayal, and back stabbing, no evil at all.

This is why 21 Coptic Christians from Egypt were captured and beheaded by ISIS in 2015, made no sound on the sandy beach in Libya before they had their heads cut off. I know, I watched the video ISIS put out of the slaughter.

If they became a Christian, because of what Christianity offered them in this life, they should have contacted the authorities to press fraud charges.

No, they became a Christian because in eternity, they will be rewarded for their faithfulness right up to the end.

Now that doesn't mean all Christians will be martyred. Obviously Christians in many parts of the world, live very good lives relative to others. But that is still not the focus of Christianity.

So if all your asking about, it what does Christianity offer you here in now... not much. G-d promises very little, except that he will be with you in the dark times, help you through the suffering, and walk with in this life up to the end.

For an outsider, looking in... Taking your contributions into account, coupled with the real life reality modern Western family life... Majority of marriages ending in divorce, most girls are whores by the standards of the West of only a couple generations ago, the list goes on... Islam by contrast seems to offer greater stability. Which is an important factor one considers when thinking about the future, and the future of their progeny.
So with that in mind, and considering not only the shrinking number of actually “practicing” Christians in our ever more secular culture; but also its pacifist turn the other cheek ideology; how does Christianity hope to stay relevant when it can’t offer someone something better in life?
Islam on the other hand for all its many faults (and there are lots!), typically has more stable family units, and greater generational stability. Not only that; but they are willing to kill, fight, and die to preserve it. Not only willing... but it’s built into their faith/ideology. As such it’s not susceptible to being watered down by popular opinion, or the latest form of activism.
So if one had to pick a side, where do you think the long term viability is between the two?

You've been subjected to the wrong denominations of Christianity.

Look at all those qualities that you admire about the Muslims: "more stable family units, and greater generational stability. Not only that; but they are willing to kill, fight, and die to preserve it. Not only willing... but it’s built into their faith/ideology. As such it’s not susceptible to being watered down by popular opinion, or the latest form of activism."

Suppose you met a group of Christians that met such a standard. What then?

We'd all know them by name. Muslims would call them out by name and swear they were the Devil incarnate. Their birth rate would be on the rise, and other Christians would emulate them if they wanted their religion To exist 250-300 years from now...

Well, there IS such a church wherein the denomination is new and we'll see. Nobody is even sure what the pastor's name is (though if he's successful, someone will say it soon enough.)

 

[Andylusion]

That’s allegedly promised after death, if conditions are met. This question pertains to the here, and now.

So I would assume Islam. I don't know specifically what Islam teaches about what they 'offer' in the here and now... but I do know that what Christianity teaches.

The here and now, is not what Christianity is about. Christianity is entirely about what comes after. There are numerous proverbs, and statements, that indicate this in the Bible.

Matthew 6: Jesus says-

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.​

Or you can look at James 4:14

You do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.​

Or you can look at Hebrews 9:27

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment​

Psalm 90:9

All our days pass away under your wrath; we finish our years with a moan.​

And there are honestly hundreds of verses that all point to the fact that this life, is not the big thing. This life is the chance to get ready for the big thing.

The big thing is what comes after this life.

Ecclesiastes is my favorite book of the Bible, because it points out the reality of life. 9:9

Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun--all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.​

Bible believing Christians are not trying to make this life our utopia, and we're not Christians because we are hoping G-d will give us stuff here.

We are waiting for the return of Christ, and a future in Heaven where there is no pain, no suffering, no illness, no old age, no terrible diseases, no betrayal, and back stabbing, no evil at all.

This is why 21 Coptic Christians from Egypt were captured and beheaded by ISIS in 2015, made no sound on the sandy beach in Libya before they had their heads cut off. I know, I watched the video ISIS put out of the slaughter.

If they became a Christian, because of what Christianity offered them in this life, they should have contacted the authorities to press fraud charges.

No, they became a Christian because in eternity, they will be rewarded for their faithfulness right up to the end.

Now that doesn't mean all Christians will be martyred. Obviously Christians in many parts of the world, live very good lives relative to others. But that is still not the focus of Christianity.

So if all your asking about, it what does Christianity offer you here in now... not much. G-d promises very little, except that he will be with you in the dark times, help you through the suffering, and walk with in this life up to the end.

For an outsider, looking in... Taking your contributions into account, coupled with the real life reality modern Western family life... Majority of marriages ending in divorce, most girls are whores by the standards of the West of only a couple generations ago, the list goes on... Islam by contrast seems to offer greater stability. Which is an important factor one considers when thinking about the future, and the future of their progeny.
So with that in mind, and considering not only the shrinking number of actually “practicing” Christians in our ever more secular culture; but also its pacifist turn the other cheek ideology; how does Christianity hope to stay relevant when it can’t offer someone something better in life?
Islam on the other hand for all its many faults (and there are lots!), typically has more stable family units, and greater generational stability. Not only that; but they are willing to kill, fight, and die to preserve it. Not only willing... but it’s built into their faith/ideology. As such it’s not susceptible to being watered down by popular opinion, or the latest form of activism.
So if one had to pick a side, where do you think the long term viability is between the two?

I don't see what you are seeing.

I know a Muslim who eats pork, and goes to Mosque only when he wants to.

I know a Muslim who got divorced. I know Muslims that act like whores.

Westernized Muslims are very similar to westernized Christians.

I think the difference you are seeing, is because a large portion of Muslims in this country, are relatively new.

A Muslim that just got of the boat, is going to live much like he did in the country he was from. For example, my ex-roommate was a Muslim from Bangladesh. He's been in this country for just over 6 years total. He lives much like he lived in Bangladesh. His wife whom I met just last month, lives exactly like a Muslim from Bangladesh, because she has only been in the country for 1 year.

I think you are looking at Muslims that have lived in strict Islamic cultures, who have been in this country for a short time, and thinking all Muslims are like that. They are not.

There are plenty of examples of Muslim women, that dress like a whore according to their own standards, and don't wear the hijab, and you can see the curves of their hips and bust line.

But if you fast forward one generation, you usually see a more Americanized views and standards.

Take for example a co-worker that I know who was Hindu. She was a practicing Hindu. She was completely different than an American in many ways. One day at work, she asked if she could get access to the server room, because it was a religious day for her, where she prayed for her parents who had passed on. Me and my manager agreed, and she was in the server room alone for about a half hour.

But she had only been in the country for 10 years of her 40 years of life. Her daughter had been in this country for most of her life, and her views were entirely different. She didn't celebrate Hindu holidays, or do the rituals. Instead she was more like an American.

So I think comparing Americans with a western culture, to those who just arrived from another country, that have that countries culture in them.... is not a fair comparison.

Now I would agree with you, that Americans are not following the same standards of the past.

But that isn't a flaw with Christianity, but rather a flaw of western culture.

Christians have not left the standards of being a Christian, but rather Americans have left being Christian.

The Church I grew up in, women did not dress like prostitutes. They dressed like modest women, and still do. Divorce was exceptionally rare, and when it happened, it was a big problem.

In all the time I was in that church, I only remember 2 divorces, and both times, the people left the church. One of the two divorces was the pastors daughter. The elders of the church called her in, demanded an explanation, she refused, and so they kicked her out. When you claim to be a Christian, you have to follow the rules of being a Christian, and divorce without cause, is not allowed.

Point being, there are Christians that still follow the doctrine of the Bible, and follow it entirely. Just like there are people who follow Islam, and Hindu, and everything else.

And by the way, the clearest example I think is the Amish. They most certainly follow Christian teaching, and divorce is almost nill, and they obviously don't dress like whores.

So if one had to pick a side, where do you think the long term viability is between the two?

I'm not real concerned with long term viability. When I die, I'll go to Heaven for all eternity. Everything on this Earth will blow away like dust.

Matthew 24:35

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
​

This planet and all the people on it, will not be here forever, and whether Christianity remains on the Earth, matters not to me when I am in Heaven enjoying paradise.

how does Christianity hope to stay relevant when it can’t offer someone something better in life?

I've never considered it the job of Christianity to stay relevant either.

I'm not here to offer you a get-rich-quick scheme, or a fancy new gadget to make your life better.
We have become an entire generation that sacrifices the future, for the present. We grab at the short-term-gain, and end up with the long-term-pain.

My purpose is to say that there is eternity after this life. You need to consider where you go after you die. If you are asking if I should take having a better life in these few years on this planet, or a perfect life for eternity, I'll take a worse life here, for a better life there.

All that said... I'm not sure that your comparison is all that great.

I can't see that nations built exclusively on the principals of any other religion, have created the type of first world wealthy country, that other nations immigrate to. For example, I don't see people immigrating to the middle east. I don't see that Nepal or Bangladesh, or other southeast Asian countries have mass immigration.

Which foundationally Islamic countries would you cite, that have it so good, that people from around the world are migrating there?

I'm just not seeing that those of other religions have it so much better in this life, than Christians.

 

[Vastator]

That’s allegedly promised after death, if conditions are met. This question pertains to the here, and now.

So I would assume Islam. I don't know specifically what Islam teaches about what they 'offer' in the here and now... but I do know that what Christianity teaches.

The here and now, is not what Christianity is about. Christianity is entirely about what comes after. There are numerous proverbs, and statements, that indicate this in the Bible.

Matthew 6: Jesus says-

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.​

Or you can look at James 4:14

You do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.​

Or you can look at Hebrews 9:27

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment​

Psalm 90:9

All our days pass away under your wrath; we finish our years with a moan.​

And there are honestly hundreds of verses that all point to the fact that this life, is not the big thing. This life is the chance to get ready for the big thing.

The big thing is what comes after this life.

Ecclesiastes is my favorite book of the Bible, because it points out the reality of life. 9:9

Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun--all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.​

Bible believing Christians are not trying to make this life our utopia, and we're not Christians because we are hoping G-d will give us stuff here.

We are waiting for the return of Christ, and a future in Heaven where there is no pain, no suffering, no illness, no old age, no terrible diseases, no betrayal, and back stabbing, no evil at all.

This is why 21 Coptic Christians from Egypt were captured and beheaded by ISIS in 2015, made no sound on the sandy beach in Libya before they had their heads cut off. I know, I watched the video ISIS put out of the slaughter.

If they became a Christian, because of what Christianity offered them in this life, they should have contacted the authorities to press fraud charges.

No, they became a Christian because in eternity, they will be rewarded for their faithfulness right up to the end.

Now that doesn't mean all Christians will be martyred. Obviously Christians in many parts of the world, live very good lives relative to others. But that is still not the focus of Christianity.

So if all your asking about, it what does Christianity offer you here in now... not much. G-d promises very little, except that he will be with you in the dark times, help you through the suffering, and walk with in this life up to the end.

For an outsider, looking in... Taking your contributions into account, coupled with the real life reality modern Western family life... Majority of marriages ending in divorce, most girls are whores by the standards of the West of only a couple generations ago, the list goes on... Islam by contrast seems to offer greater stability. Which is an important factor one considers when thinking about the future, and the future of their progeny.
So with that in mind, and considering not only the shrinking number of actually “practicing” Christians in our ever more secular culture; but also its pacifist turn the other cheek ideology; how does Christianity hope to stay relevant when it can’t offer someone something better in life?
Islam on the other hand for all its many faults (and there are lots!), typically has more stable family units, and greater generational stability. Not only that; but they are willing to kill, fight, and die to preserve it. Not only willing... but it’s built into their faith/ideology. As such it’s not susceptible to being watered down by popular opinion, or the latest form of activism.
So if one had to pick a side, where do you think the long term viability is between the two?

I don't see what you are seeing.

I know a Muslim who eats pork, and goes to Mosque only when he wants to.

I know a Muslim who got divorced. I know Muslims that act like whores.

Westernized Muslims are very similar to westernized Christians.

I think the difference you are seeing, is because a large portion of Muslims in this country, are relatively new.

A Muslim that just got of the boat, is going to live much like he did in the country he was from. For example, my ex-roommate was a Muslim from Bangladesh. He's been in this country for just over 6 years total. He lives much like he lived in Bangladesh. His wife whom I met just last month, lives exactly like a Muslim from Bangladesh, because she has only been in the country for 1 year.

I think you are looking at Muslims that have lived in strict Islamic cultures, who have been in this country for a short time, and thinking all Muslims are like that. They are not.

There are plenty of examples of Muslim women, that dress like a whore according to their own standards, and don't wear the hijab, and you can see the curves of their hips and bust line.

But if you fast forward one generation, you usually see a more Americanized views and standards.

Take for example a co-worker that I know who was Hindu. She was a practicing Hindu. She was completely different than an American in many ways. One day at work, she asked if she could get access to the server room, because it was a religious day for her, where she prayed for her parents who had passed on. Me and my manager agreed, and she was in the server room alone for about a half hour.

But she had only been in the country for 10 years of her 40 years of life. Her daughter had been in this country for most of her life, and her views were entirely different. She didn't celebrate Hindu holidays, or do the rituals. Instead she was more like an American.

So I think comparing Americans with a western culture, to those who just arrived from another country, that have that countries culture in them.... is not a fair comparison.

Now I would agree with you, that Americans are not following the same standards of the past.

But that isn't a flaw with Christianity, but rather a flaw of western culture.

Christians have not left the standards of being a Christian, but rather Americans have left being Christian.

The Church I grew up in, women did not dress like prostitutes. They dressed like modest women, and still do. Divorce was exceptionally rare, and when it happened, it was a big problem.

In all the time I was in that church, I only remember 2 divorces, and both times, the people left the church. One of the two divorces was the pastors daughter. The elders of the church called her in, demanded an explanation, she refused, and so they kicked her out. When you claim to be a Christian, you have to follow the rules of being a Christian, and divorce without cause, is not allowed.

Point being, there are Christians that still follow the doctrine of the Bible, and follow it entirely. Just like there are people who follow Islam, and Hindu, and everything else.

And by the way, the clearest example I think is the Amish. They most certainly follow Christian teaching, and divorce is almost nill, and they obviously don't dress like whores.

So if one had to pick a side, where do you think the long term viability is between the two?

I'm not real concerned with long term viability. When I die, I'll go to Heaven for all eternity. Everything on this Earth will blow away like dust.

Matthew 24:35

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
​

This planet and all the people on it, will not be here forever, and whether Christianity remains on the Earth, matters not to me when I am in Heaven enjoying paradise.

how does Christianity hope to stay relevant when it can’t offer someone something better in life?

I've never considered it the job of Christianity to stay relevant either.

I'm not here to offer you a get-rich-quick scheme, or a fancy new gadget to make your life better.
We have become an entire generation that sacrifices the future, for the present. We grab at the short-term-gain, and end up with the long-term-pain.

My purpose is to say that there is eternity after this life. You need to consider where you go after you die. If you are asking if I should take having a better life in these few years on this planet, or a perfect life for eternity, I'll take a worse life here, for a better life there.

All that said... I'm not sure that your comparison is all that great.

I can't see that nations built exclusively on the principals of any other religion, have created the type of first world wealthy country, that other nations immigrate to. For example, I don't see people immigrating to the middle east. I don't see that Nepal or Bangladesh, or other southeast Asian countries have mass immigration.

Which foundationally Islamic countries would you cite, that have it so good, that people from around the world are migrating there?

I'm just not seeing that those of other religions have it so much better in this life, than Christians.

Thank you for responding in a manner relevant to the question posed in the OP. That's apparently no small feat. And it's truly appreciated. It fosters the kind of fruitful discussion I was hoping for. What follows is my response. Bear with the clumsy layout, as this was done by phone...

"I think you are looking at Muslims that have lived in strict Islamic cultures, who have been in this country for a short time, and thinking all Muslims are like that. They are not."
Nah. When I'm looking at Islam in the context of the OP; I'm thinking more along the lines of Muslim majority countries, or areas of Muslim governance. The culture, and values that it expects, and produces. Compared to what is offered by the West. And I totally agree, that even newly arrived immigrant Muslims from other countries are not immune to the exposure of the West. They too are susceptible to "straying" from their Faith's core values. Much like has happened with many Western Christian's. But they are also beholden to its shortcomings. And many of those shortcomings I think are tied very closely to the decline in Christianities popularity.

..................
"But that isn't a flaw with Christianity, but rather a flaw of western culture."

Again, I agree with you. That's why I mentioned the "as practiced" part in my posts. There is indeed a very important distinction between what is written, and what people actually do in observance of what is written.

Now with those two points mentioned I think it is important to point out a crucial difference between Islam, and Christianity as it pertains to the afore mentioned posts. Its area of influence. To that end a distinction which cannot be ignored is that Islam is as strong today, as it has ever been, in traditionally Islamic countries. And growing. Not only growing. But spreading into areas where Christianity has reigned supreme for a very, very long time. By contrast; Christianity is dwindling in its historical strong holds. That's a very serious distinction between the two.
.............
Regarding your points made on divorce... I have no doubt that this... This is going to be the Achilles Heel/Trojan Horse that is going to be the foothold of appeal to the Western man seeking religion. The current, as practiced methodology, and consequence for western men has been nothing short of brutally punitive. And no reason need be given. Unlike marriage; divorce doesn't take two to tango. And what it can do, and has done to so many men in the West has not only curbed the rate of marriage amongst Western men; it's also stifled the birth rate. Having seen many men go through it; I've seen everything from suicide, to homelessness, to jail time for not being able to cough up enough money, to losing ones ancestral family land. All predicated on one simple phrase... "I'm not happy"
And there are many kids, and young men out there right now who've witnessed this same destruction wrought upon them. Their father's, uncle's, classmates parents... Its everywhere. And while these things certainly happen to muslims in the west as well. It isn't happening in Islams homeland, and Bosom if you will.

..................

"I'm not real concerned with long term viability. When I die, I'll go to Heaven for all eternity. Everything on this Earth will blow away like dust."

This part here I dont quite understand. Without anyone to carry the faith on, it ceases to exist. Everything about it that one values, and wants to hand on to their kids is gone... Would that have not all been for ones self, if one doesn't take steps to ensure that it endures. So that their future progeny may experience it as well. Make it into heaven to see great, great, great, grand pappy?
................
"I'm not here to offer you a get-rich-quick scheme, or a fancy new gadget to make your life better.
We have become an entire generation that sacrifices the future, for the present. We grab at the short-term-gain, and end up with the long-term-pain.

My purpose is to say that there is eternity after this life. You need to consider where you go after you die. If you are asking if I should take having a better life in these few years on this planet, or a perfect life for eternity, I'll take a worse life here, for a better life there.

All that said... I'm not sure that your comparison is all that great.

I can't see that nations built exclusively on the principals of any other religion, have created the type of first world wealthy country, that other nations immigrate to. For example, I don't see people immigrating to the middle east. I don't see that Nepal or Bangladesh, or other southeast Asian countries have mass immigration."

Lots here in this part. Some of it seem ing in conflict with itself or previous remarks about Western society. Not a dig on you by any means. But your right. Many come to the West because we have "wealth," and "things". However... like you mentioned before when it comes to the values they once had; many are lost. A number of those things lost, are not small things. They create a void. A void that yearns to be filled. Much like many of the poorer folks come here envious of what they think we have... How many here ha e lost more important things that these immigrants take for granted?
Our nation our nation seems to be amassing an army of broken, yearning souls. Souls looking for something that can satisfy what has been lost to them. Something that an bring them a sense of peace; not about eternity, but of tomorrow. For all our cultures enamored for the disposable most still crave for something of greater permanence. Something enduring. Western culture has failed many in this regard. And just across the ocean is a faith ready willing, and able to to swoop in and pick these souls like ripe fruit. Whereas Christianity used to fill this void; the void will not remain. If christianity, and Christian's aren't willing to step up, and get back to the core time proven tenets, and social structures that made it such a successful power house in the past... Islam will. It's not only willing. Its able. And its doing it. Its growing.
...................

 

[Vastator]

That’s allegedly promised after death, if conditions are met. This question pertains to the here, and now.

So I would assume Islam. I don't know specifically what Islam teaches about what they 'offer' in the here and now... but I do know that what Christianity teaches.

The here and now, is not what Christianity is about. Christianity is entirely about what comes after. There are numerous proverbs, and statements, that indicate this in the Bible.

Matthew 6: Jesus says-

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.​

Or you can look at James 4:14

You do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.​

Or you can look at Hebrews 9:27

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment​

Psalm 90:9

All our days pass away under your wrath; we finish our years with a moan.​

And there are honestly hundreds of verses that all point to the fact that this life, is not the big thing. This life is the chance to get ready for the big thing.

The big thing is what comes after this life.

Ecclesiastes is my favorite book of the Bible, because it points out the reality of life. 9:9

Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun--all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.​

Bible believing Christians are not trying to make this life our utopia, and we're not Christians because we are hoping G-d will give us stuff here.

We are waiting for the return of Christ, and a future in Heaven where there is no pain, no suffering, no illness, no old age, no terrible diseases, no betrayal, and back stabbing, no evil at all.

This is why 21 Coptic Christians from Egypt were captured and beheaded by ISIS in 2015, made no sound on the sandy beach in Libya before they had their heads cut off. I know, I watched the video ISIS put out of the slaughter.

If they became a Christian, because of what Christianity offered them in this life, they should have contacted the authorities to press fraud charges.

No, they became a Christian because in eternity, they will be rewarded for their faithfulness right up to the end.

Now that doesn't mean all Christians will be martyred. Obviously Christians in many parts of the world, live very good lives relative to others. But that is still not the focus of Christianity.

So if all your asking about, it what does Christianity offer you here in now... not much. G-d promises very little, except that he will be with you in the dark times, help you through the suffering, and walk with in this life up to the end.

For an outsider, looking in... Taking your contributions into account, coupled with the real life reality modern Western family life... Majority of marriages ending in divorce, most girls are whores by the standards of the West of only a couple generations ago, the list goes on... Islam by contrast seems to offer greater stability. Which is an important factor one considers when thinking about the future, and the future of their progeny.
So with that in mind, and considering not only the shrinking number of actually “practicing” Christians in our ever more secular culture; but also its pacifist turn the other cheek ideology; how does Christianity hope to stay relevant when it can’t offer someone something better in life?
Islam on the other hand for all its many faults (and there are lots!), typically has more stable family units, and greater generational stability. Not only that; but they are willing to kill, fight, and die to preserve it. Not only willing... but it’s built into their faith/ideology. As such it’s not susceptible to being watered down by popular opinion, or the latest form of activism.
So if one had to pick a side, where do you think the long term viability is between the two?

You've been subjected to the wrong denominations of Christianity.

Look at all those qualities that you admire about the Muslims: "more stable family units, and greater generational stability. Not only that; but they are willing to kill, fight, and die to preserve it. Not only willing... but it’s built into their faith/ideology. As such it’s not susceptible to being watered down by popular opinion, or the latest form of activism."

Suppose you met a group of Christians that met such a standard. What then?

We'd all know them by name. Muslims would call them out by name and swear they were the Devil incarnate. Their birth rate would be on the rise, and other Christians would emulate them if they wanted their religion To exist 250-300 years from now...

Well, there IS such a church wherein the denomination is new and we'll see. Nobody is even sure what the pastor's name is (though if he's successful, someone will say it soon enough.)

Is there anything more you could say? Keep in mind the average street level person in the position of the OP subject could never “choose” a selection they cannot access.

 

[Andylusion]

That’s allegedly promised after death, if conditions are met. This question pertains to the here, and now.

So I would assume Islam. I don't know specifically what Islam teaches about what they 'offer' in the here and now... but I do know that what Christianity teaches.

The here and now, is not what Christianity is about. Christianity is entirely about what comes after. There are numerous proverbs, and statements, that indicate this in the Bible.

Matthew 6: Jesus says-

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.​

Or you can look at James 4:14

You do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.​

Or you can look at Hebrews 9:27

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment​

Psalm 90:9

All our days pass away under your wrath; we finish our years with a moan.​

And there are honestly hundreds of verses that all point to the fact that this life, is not the big thing. This life is the chance to get ready for the big thing.

The big thing is what comes after this life.

Ecclesiastes is my favorite book of the Bible, because it points out the reality of life. 9:9

Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun--all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.​

Bible believing Christians are not trying to make this life our utopia, and we're not Christians because we are hoping G-d will give us stuff here.

We are waiting for the return of Christ, and a future in Heaven where there is no pain, no suffering, no illness, no old age, no terrible diseases, no betrayal, and back stabbing, no evil at all.

This is why 21 Coptic Christians from Egypt were captured and beheaded by ISIS in 2015, made no sound on the sandy beach in Libya before they had their heads cut off. I know, I watched the video ISIS put out of the slaughter.

If they became a Christian, because of what Christianity offered them in this life, they should have contacted the authorities to press fraud charges.

No, they became a Christian because in eternity, they will be rewarded for their faithfulness right up to the end.

Now that doesn't mean all Christians will be martyred. Obviously Christians in many parts of the world, live very good lives relative to others. But that is still not the focus of Christianity.

So if all your asking about, it what does Christianity offer you here in now... not much. G-d promises very little, except that he will be with you in the dark times, help you through the suffering, and walk with in this life up to the end.

For an outsider, looking in... Taking your contributions into account, coupled with the real life reality modern Western family life... Majority of marriages ending in divorce, most girls are whores by the standards of the West of only a couple generations ago, the list goes on... Islam by contrast seems to offer greater stability. Which is an important factor one considers when thinking about the future, and the future of their progeny.
So with that in mind, and considering not only the shrinking number of actually “practicing” Christians in our ever more secular culture; but also its pacifist turn the other cheek ideology; how does Christianity hope to stay relevant when it can’t offer someone something better in life?
Islam on the other hand for all its many faults (and there are lots!), typically has more stable family units, and greater generational stability. Not only that; but they are willing to kill, fight, and die to preserve it. Not only willing... but it’s built into their faith/ideology. As such it’s not susceptible to being watered down by popular opinion, or the latest form of activism.
So if one had to pick a side, where do you think the long term viability is between the two?

I don't see what you are seeing.

I know a Muslim who eats pork, and goes to Mosque only when he wants to.

I know a Muslim who got divorced. I know Muslims that act like whores.

Westernized Muslims are very similar to westernized Christians.

I think the difference you are seeing, is because a large portion of Muslims in this country, are relatively new.

A Muslim that just got of the boat, is going to live much like he did in the country he was from. For example, my ex-roommate was a Muslim from Bangladesh. He's been in this country for just over 6 years total. He lives much like he lived in Bangladesh. His wife whom I met just last month, lives exactly like a Muslim from Bangladesh, because she has only been in the country for 1 year.

I think you are looking at Muslims that have lived in strict Islamic cultures, who have been in this country for a short time, and thinking all Muslims are like that. They are not.

There are plenty of examples of Muslim women, that dress like a whore according to their own standards, and don't wear the hijab, and you can see the curves of their hips and bust line.

But if you fast forward one generation, you usually see a more Americanized views and standards.

Take for example a co-worker that I know who was Hindu. She was a practicing Hindu. She was completely different than an American in many ways. One day at work, she asked if she could get access to the server room, because it was a religious day for her, where she prayed for her parents who had passed on. Me and my manager agreed, and she was in the server room alone for about a half hour.

But she had only been in the country for 10 years of her 40 years of life. Her daughter had been in this country for most of her life, and her views were entirely different. She didn't celebrate Hindu holidays, or do the rituals. Instead she was more like an American.

So I think comparing Americans with a western culture, to those who just arrived from another country, that have that countries culture in them.... is not a fair comparison.

Now I would agree with you, that Americans are not following the same standards of the past.

But that isn't a flaw with Christianity, but rather a flaw of western culture.

Christians have not left the standards of being a Christian, but rather Americans have left being Christian.

The Church I grew up in, women did not dress like prostitutes. They dressed like modest women, and still do. Divorce was exceptionally rare, and when it happened, it was a big problem.

In all the time I was in that church, I only remember 2 divorces, and both times, the people left the church. One of the two divorces was the pastors daughter. The elders of the church called her in, demanded an explanation, she refused, and so they kicked her out. When you claim to be a Christian, you have to follow the rules of being a Christian, and divorce without cause, is not allowed.

Point being, there are Christians that still follow the doctrine of the Bible, and follow it entirely. Just like there are people who follow Islam, and Hindu, and everything else.

And by the way, the clearest example I think is the Amish. They most certainly follow Christian teaching, and divorce is almost nill, and they obviously don't dress like whores.

So if one had to pick a side, where do you think the long term viability is between the two?

I'm not real concerned with long term viability. When I die, I'll go to Heaven for all eternity. Everything on this Earth will blow away like dust.

Matthew 24:35

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
​

This planet and all the people on it, will not be here forever, and whether Christianity remains on the Earth, matters not to me when I am in Heaven enjoying paradise.

how does Christianity hope to stay relevant when it can’t offer someone something better in life?

I've never considered it the job of Christianity to stay relevant either.

I'm not here to offer you a get-rich-quick scheme, or a fancy new gadget to make your life better.
We have become an entire generation that sacrifices the future, for the present. We grab at the short-term-gain, and end up with the long-term-pain.

My purpose is to say that there is eternity after this life. You need to consider where you go after you die. If you are asking if I should take having a better life in these few years on this planet, or a perfect life for eternity, I'll take a worse life here, for a better life there.

All that said... I'm not sure that your comparison is all that great.

I can't see that nations built exclusively on the principals of any other religion, have created the type of first world wealthy country, that other nations immigrate to. For example, I don't see people immigrating to the middle east. I don't see that Nepal or Bangladesh, or other southeast Asian countries have mass immigration.

Which foundationally Islamic countries would you cite, that have it so good, that people from around the world are migrating there?

I'm just not seeing that those of other religions have it so much better in this life, than Christians.

Thank you for responding in a manner relevant to the question posed in the OP. That's apparently no small feat. And it's truly appreciated. It fosters the kind of fruitful discussion I was hoping for. What follows is my response. Bear with the clumsy layout, as this was done by phone...

"I think you are looking at Muslims that have lived in strict Islamic cultures, who have been in this country for a short time, and thinking all Muslims are like that. They are not."
Nah. When I'm looking at Islam in the context of the OP; I'm thinking more along the lines of Muslim majority countries, or areas of Muslim governance. The culture, and values that it expects, and produces. Compared to what is offered by the West. And I totally agree, that even newly arrived immigrant Muslims from other countries are not immune to the exposure of the West. They too are susceptible to "straying" from their Faith's core values. Much like has happened with many Western Christian's. But they are also beholden to its shortcomings. And many of those shortcomings I think are tied very closely to the decline in Christianities popularity.

..................
"But that isn't a flaw with Christianity, but rather a flaw of western culture."

Again, I agree with you. That's why I mentioned the "as practiced" part in my posts. There is indeed a very important distinction between what is written, and what people actually do in observance of what is written.

Now with those two points mentioned I think it is important to point out a crucial difference between Islam, and Christianity as it pertains to the afore mentioned posts. Its area of influence. To that end a distinction which cannot be ignored is that Islam is as strong today, as it has ever been, in traditionally Islamic countries. And growing. Not only growing. But spreading into areas where Christianity has reigned supreme for a very, very long time. By contrast; Christianity is dwindling in its historical strong holds. That's a very serious distinction between the two.
.............
Regarding your points made on divorce... I have no doubt that this... This is going to be the Achilles Heel/Trojan Horse that is going to be the foothold of appeal to the Western man seeking religion. The current, as practiced methodology, and consequence for western men has been nothing short of brutally punitive. And no reason need be given. Unlike marriage; divorce doesn't take two to tango. And what it can do, and has done to so many men in the West has not only curbed the rate of marriage amongst Western men; it's also stifled the birth rate. Having seen many men go through it; I've seen everything from suicide, to homelessness, to jail time for not being able to cough up enough money, to losing ones ancestral family land. All predicated on one simple phrase... "I'm not happy"
And there are many kids, and young men out there right now who've witnessed this same destruction wrought upon them. Their father's, uncle's, classmates parents... Its everywhere. And while these things certainly happen to muslims in the west as well. It isn't happening in Islams homeland, and Bosom if you will.

..................

"I'm not real concerned with long term viability. When I die, I'll go to Heaven for all eternity. Everything on this Earth will blow away like dust."

This part here I dont quite understand. Without anyone to carry the faith on, it ceases to exist. Everything about it that one values, and wants to hand on to their kids is gone... Would that have not all been for ones self, if one doesn't take steps to ensure that it endures. So that their future progeny may experience it as well. Make it into heaven to see great, great, great, grand pappy?
................
"I'm not here to offer you a get-rich-quick scheme, or a fancy new gadget to make your life better.
We have become an entire generation that sacrifices the future, for the present. We grab at the short-term-gain, and end up with the long-term-pain.

My purpose is to say that there is eternity after this life. You need to consider where you go after you die. If you are asking if I should take having a better life in these few years on this planet, or a perfect life for eternity, I'll take a worse life here, for a better life there.

All that said... I'm not sure that your comparison is all that great.

I can't see that nations built exclusively on the principals of any other religion, have created the type of first world wealthy country, that other nations immigrate to. For example, I don't see people immigrating to the middle east. I don't see that Nepal or Bangladesh, or other southeast Asian countries have mass immigration."

Lots here in this part. Some of it seem ing in conflict with itself or previous remarks about Western society. Not a dig on you by any means. But your right. Many come to the West because we have "wealth," and "things". However... like you mentioned before when it comes to the values they once had; many are lost. A number of those things lost, are not small things. They create a void. A void that yearns to be filled. Much like many of the poorer folks come here envious of what they think we have... How many here ha e lost more important things that these immigrants take for granted?
Our nation our nation seems to be amassing an army of broken, yearning souls. Souls looking for something that can satisfy what has been lost to them. Something that an bring them a sense of peace; not about eternity, but of tomorrow. For all our cultures enamored for the disposable most still crave for something of greater permanence. Something enduring. Western culture has failed many in this regard. And just across the ocean is a faith ready willing, and able to to swoop in and pick these souls like ripe fruit. Whereas Christianity used to fill this void; the void will not remain. If christianity, and Christian's aren't willing to step up, and get back to the core time proven tenets, and social structures that made it such a successful power house in the past... Islam will. It's not only willing. Its able. And its doing it. Its growing.
...................

Its area of influence. To that end a distinction which cannot be ignored is that Islam is as strong today, as it has ever been, in traditionally Islamic countries. And growing. Not only growing. But spreading into areas where Christianity has reigned supreme for a very, very long time.

Hard to say. I've seen more former Muslims covert to Christianity in the last 5 years, than I have ever seen before in the previous 30. The reasons for this are multi-fold.

But you are correct that in prior Christian strongholds, that Christianity has declined. No question about that, and I fully expected it.

Fundamentally, Christianity and Islam, are extremely different both in how were created, and in how they have been enforced to this day.

Jesus Christ never demanded that people follow him. In fact he said the exact opposite.
"Whoever has ears, let them hear." -Jesus Matthew 11:15. He wasn't saying, check to see if you have ears. He was saying if you are willing to listen to me, then do so.

Implication... if you don't want to listen, then go your own way.

In John 6:66, it says "From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him." and this is followed by Jesus saying "You do not want to leave too, do you?"

Point being, he didn't chase after them. He let them leave, and even asked if others wanted to leave too.

Throughout his entire ministry, Jesus never once sought to force people to follow him. He only opened the door, told everyone this is the better way, and welcomed anyone who came.

Islam was created, and propagated a very different way. Mohammad did not ask people to follow him, but rather threatened to kill them if they didn't. The sword of Islam converted people by the skin of their necks, or cut them off.

So naturally Christian based countries like the US, have a freedom of Religion, because that is what the founding of our faith was based on. Jesus only offered a way to live, not demanded it.

And naturally Islamic countries have an enforced religion where you either follow them, or you are killed by them.

So when you consider how the two faiths are based, and how they operate, one would expect that in a Christian based system, more people would fall away from the faith, and in an Islamic country where falling away means death, that naturally more would stay with the faith.

And I also think that is why you see Muslim people converting more and more, as they move away from those Islamic countries. Faith enforced by death if you leave it, is only skin deep.

Without anyone to carry the faith on, it ceases to exist. Everything about it that one values, and wants to hand on to their kids is gone... Would that have not all been for ones self, if one doesn't take steps to ensure that it endures. So that their future progeny may experience it as well. Make it into heaven to see great, great, great, grand pappy?

What I'm saying is that for Christians like myself, the Bible says very clearly that this world will literally pass away. This reality we live in right now, has a time limit, and I believe the clock is ticking down even now. Whether it will end in my life time, I don't know.

But it will end. The Earth will be destroyed, and all humans will we wiped from existence. We will be taken to the white throne of judgement, where all people will be judged for all they have done, both the good and the bad. The entire universe, will be remade into the perfection it was supposed to be.

And I believe that those who are saved, and adopted into the family of G-d, will be brought back to this Earth, in a perfection known as Heaven.

Acts 3:21 He (referring to the Lord Jesus) must remain in heaven until the time of universal restitution, which God announced long ago through the voice of his holy prophets.

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Revelation 21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

So in numerous places, and I could go back to the old testament as well, there is this idea that Jesus talked about the renewing of this existence.

But when that time comes, there will only be those who are Christians. There will not be anyone else in this world. And additionally, I believe that we will not remember this sin-cursed world, or any of the pain and suffering we had here.

So when you say, make it into Heaven.... yeah. That works for me. It most certainly does.

All that said, I'm not too worried that Christianity is going to die out.

In my family, nearly all my relatives are practicing Christians. So are the next generation of our family.

And generally speaking, world wide, Christianity is still growing a faster rate than Islam. Yes, Christianity is declining in western culture, that's true. But it is growing dramatically in Eastern Europe and Asia, and west Africa for that matter.

Many come to the West because we have "wealth," and "things". However... like you mentioned before when it comes to the values they once had; many are lost. A number of those things lost, are not small things. They create a void. A void that yearns to be filled.

That is actually not what I was referring to. Although there are some people, and perhaps many or most, who come here for the stuff & things.

But I was referring to the people who are coming here, because they have seen death.

I can't even begin to count the number of Muslims here, because it was life or death. A woman showed up at my parents church, and sat second row to the front, just weeping. My mother has but one gift that I have forever been in awe of, the ability to sit next to absolutely anyone, and get to know them like they were best friends for life. The elders of the church, got my mother to sit with her. She's from Iran, and her husband was a scientist. He fled the country, because they slaughtered the previous round of scientists, when the nuclear program faltered. If he stayed, he thought he would be next.

That's what I'm talking about.

This guy I worked with, told me his story about how the militias in his traditional Islamic African country (I can't remember which, and I don't want to guess), were just roaming the streets, grabbing people and beating them. When they ran out of people on the street to rob and beat, they picked random houses, and robbed and beat people. He fled to the embassy and now he's here in the US.

That's what I'm talking about.

Yeah, some people come here because they have a goofy belief that we have $100 bills on the ground just along the streets. I get that. I've heard those stories too.

But when you compare Traditional Islamic countries, and why those people come here... it's not the money. It's because the Islamic religious police, beat his wife, because her head covering wasn't proper. Or because they said he had to give his 7-year-old daughter to marry some guy according to Islamic law. Or because the Sunni and Shia are fighting.

Our nation our nation seems to be amassing an army of broken, yearning souls. Western culture has failed many in this regard. And just across the ocean is a faith ready willing, and able to to swoop in and pick these souls like ripe fruit. Whereas Christianity used to fill this void; the void will not remain. If christianity, and Christian's aren't willing to step up, and get back to the core time proven tenets, and social structures that made it such a successful power house in the past... Islam will. It's not only willing. Its able. And its doing it. Its growing.

Yes, we are a nation of broken souls. Yes.

But I think you are mis-reading the data on Islam's growth in the US.

Islam (by everything I have seen and read), is not growing in the US because they are meeting that void you speak of.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the US for three specific reasons.

One: They were an extremely tiny minority, that suddenly got an influx of Muslims from war torn areas. Palestine, Syria, Iraq, and Iran. (Iran just being oppressive).

When you start off with 10,000 people, and 5,000 more people show up, that's a 50% growth rate... not because the numbers increased that much.... but relative to how many you started with, the numbers are huge. Then you take that large growth rate, and say that at this rate of growth Islam will take over the country.... well yeah, but that assume the growth rate will stay the same. It won't.

Two: Americans are not having many kids, and they are waiting way late in life to have them.

The number one way that belief system is passed on, is from one generation to the next. My parents, their parents, and their parents were all protestant Christians. Fascinatingly, turns out that my father did some digging on our heritage and found that the very first of our family that came to America, the very first man, was actually a Christian pastor of a small congregation.

The bottom line is, Christianity is more like dying on the vine, rather than being plucked. Christians are breeding themselves out of existence, by not having more kids.

Three: Americans have defected more towards fake spiritualism. Yoga spiritualism. Wiccan spiritualism. Scientology, and other non-sense.

So I don't think Islam is appealing to most people in this country. I could be wrong, I don't know for sure, but I don't see that many converts to Islam, rather I just see church that have so many people, they should have kids busting out the seems, and instead, have relatively few.

I don't see that many in the Islamic faith are native Christian Americans, but rather immigrants, or the children of immigrants.

Bottom line is...

I see this a prophetic. The Bible says people will turn away from the faith in the end times. Noah preached to the people of his day, and not one turned to be saved. So why would I expect today to be any different?

I would be more shocked if the nation as a whole, stayed completely true to Christian beliefs, and I would be less likely to think the end is coming soon.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

So I would assume Islam. I don't know specifically what Islam teaches about what they 'offer' in the here and now... but I do know that what Christianity teaches.

The here and now, is not what Christianity is about. Christianity is entirely about what comes after. There are numerous proverbs, and statements, that indicate this in the Bible.

Matthew 6: Jesus says-

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.​

Or you can look at James 4:14

You do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.​

Or you can look at Hebrews 9:27

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment​

Psalm 90:9

All our days pass away under your wrath; we finish our years with a moan.​

And there are honestly hundreds of verses that all point to the fact that this life, is not the big thing. This life is the chance to get ready for the big thing.

The big thing is what comes after this life.

Ecclesiastes is my favorite book of the Bible, because it points out the reality of life. 9:9

Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun--all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.​

Bible believing Christians are not trying to make this life our utopia, and we're not Christians because we are hoping G-d will give us stuff here.

We are waiting for the return of Christ, and a future in Heaven where there is no pain, no suffering, no illness, no old age, no terrible diseases, no betrayal, and back stabbing, no evil at all.

This is why 21 Coptic Christians from Egypt were captured and beheaded by ISIS in 2015, made no sound on the sandy beach in Libya before they had their heads cut off. I know, I watched the video ISIS put out of the slaughter.

If they became a Christian, because of what Christianity offered them in this life, they should have contacted the authorities to press fraud charges.

No, they became a Christian because in eternity, they will be rewarded for their faithfulness right up to the end.

Now that doesn't mean all Christians will be martyred. Obviously Christians in many parts of the world, live very good lives relative to others. But that is still not the focus of Christianity.

So if all your asking about, it what does Christianity offer you here in now... not much. G-d promises very little, except that he will be with you in the dark times, help you through the suffering, and walk with in this life up to the end.

For an outsider, looking in... Taking your contributions into account, coupled with the real life reality modern Western family life... Majority of marriages ending in divorce, most girls are whores by the standards of the West of only a couple generations ago, the list goes on... Islam by contrast seems to offer greater stability. Which is an important factor one considers when thinking about the future, and the future of their progeny.
So with that in mind, and considering not only the shrinking number of actually “practicing” Christians in our ever more secular culture; but also its pacifist turn the other cheek ideology; how does Christianity hope to stay relevant when it can’t offer someone something better in life?
Islam on the other hand for all its many faults (and there are lots!), typically has more stable family units, and greater generational stability. Not only that; but they are willing to kill, fight, and die to preserve it. Not only willing... but it’s built into their faith/ideology. As such it’s not susceptible to being watered down by popular opinion, or the latest form of activism.
So if one had to pick a side, where do you think the long term viability is between the two?

You've been subjected to the wrong denominations of Christianity.

Look at all those qualities that you admire about the Muslims: "more stable family units, and greater generational stability. Not only that; but they are willing to kill, fight, and die to preserve it. Not only willing... but it’s built into their faith/ideology. As such it’s not susceptible to being watered down by popular opinion, or the latest form of activism."

Suppose you met a group of Christians that met such a standard. What then?

We'd all know them by name. Muslims would call them out by name and swear they were the Devil incarnate. Their birth rate would be on the rise, and other Christians would emulate them if they wanted their religion To exist 250-300 years from now...

Well, there IS such a church wherein the denomination is new and we'll see. Nobody is even sure what the pastor's name is (though if he's successful, someone will say it soon enough.)

Is there anything more you could say? Keep in mind the average street level person in the position of the OP subject could never “choose” a selection they cannot access.

Have you ever wondered why, as a previous poster pointed out, people want to come to the United States of America, not some cesspool of a country that happens to be Muslim?

PM sent.

 

[ding]

The idea of this thread being... If an Agnostic man was looking to take up religion; and decided to shop the idea around, between the two main contenders at the moment; Christianity, and Islam...
Which would have more to offer men? Which would be the better choice, and why? Which one do you think would best suit not only his immediate interests, but also his long term planning for his family, and generational progeny?

Christianity.

It’s the only one that offers up an explanation for why the world is the way it is.