When will we put LGBTQ issues behind us.?

[ChrisL]

Please wipe the spit off your chin, get an education and come back when you have something useful to contribute

Homophobia

Human Sexuality

Government

Wipe the load off your face, reject your indoctrination and I won't hold my breath waiting for you to gain cognitive function. You'd have to have a frontal lobe and yours has withered away like a paralyzed person's legs from lack of use.

Here's something for you to research:

Bed wetting

Sexual Deviancy

The sort of Government you promote.

You're gross.

 

[ChrisL]

Well, all you whiny babies can keep on whining. Doesn't really make a difference. The law is the law and we've had these types of anti-discrimination laws on the books for years and years. Go cry in your Cheerios that you can't discriminate against those who you "hate." Nobody feels sorry for you except for maybe some old church ladies.

 

[dblack]

Well, all you whiny babies can keep on whining. Doesn't really make a difference. The law is the law and we've had these types of anti-discrimination laws on the books for years and years. Go cry in your Cheerios that you can't discriminate against those who you "hate." Nobody feels sorry for you except for maybe some old church ladies.

So, you're just trying to squelch discussion?

 

[ChrisL]

Well, all you whiny babies can keep on whining. Doesn't really make a difference. The law is the law and we've had these types of anti-discrimination laws on the books for years and years. Go cry in your Cheerios that you can't discriminate against those who you "hate." Nobody feels sorry for you except for maybe some old church ladies.

So, you're just trying to squelch discussion?

Just stating the facts. Whine on, Mr. Whiny Pants. Your whining on this message board isn't going to change the law, now is it?

 

[dblack]

Well, all you whiny babies can keep on whining. Doesn't really make a difference. The law is the law and we've had these types of anti-discrimination laws on the books for years and years. Go cry in your Cheerios that you can't discriminate against those who you "hate." Nobody feels sorry for you except for maybe some old church ladies.

So, you're just trying to squelch discussion?

Just stating the facts. Whine on, Mr. Whiny Pants. Your whining on this message board isn't going to change the law, now is it?

I'm discussing the topic. Not sure what your goal is.

 

[ChrisL]

Well, all you whiny babies can keep on whining. Doesn't really make a difference. The law is the law and we've had these types of anti-discrimination laws on the books for years and years. Go cry in your Cheerios that you can't discriminate against those who you "hate." Nobody feels sorry for you except for maybe some old church ladies.

So, you're just trying to squelch discussion?

Just stating the facts. Whine on, Mr. Whiny Pants. Your whining on this message board isn't going to change the law, now is it?

I'm discussing the topic. Not sure what your goal is.

My goal? Making you see that your complaints are stupid, and nobody cares if you don't like "the gays" or "the blacks" or whomever. When it comes to doing business, you are SUPPOSED to be a professional and put that stupid stuff aside. Unless you are a bigot and you can't manage to do it.

 

[dblack]

Well, all you whiny babies can keep on whining. Doesn't really make a difference. The law is the law and we've had these types of anti-discrimination laws on the books for years and years. Go cry in your Cheerios that you can't discriminate against those who you "hate." Nobody feels sorry for you except for maybe some old church ladies.

So, you're just trying to squelch discussion?

Just stating the facts. Whine on, Mr. Whiny Pants. Your whining on this message board isn't going to change the law, now is it?

I'm discussing the topic. Not sure what your goal is.

My goal? Making you see that your complaints are stupid, and nobody cares if you don't like "the gays" or "the blacks" or whomever. When it comes to doing business, you are SUPPOSED to be a professional and put that stupid stuff aside. Unless you are a bigot and you can't manage to do it.

You don't seem to understand my complaints. The only responses you give amount to "Sit down and shut up". It's rude and pointless.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

progressives only care about the constitution when some progressive judge makes crap up for them about it.

"Right to Abortion?" HELL YES, "Right to keep and Bear Arms?", HELL NO.

Not just about the Constitution (though very prominently so) but about the world as a whole, it seems that much of modern wrong-wing ideology is heavily based on ignoring what is plain and obvious, in favor of just making stuff up that has no basis in observable reality. With respect to the Constitution, of course, it takes the form, just as you've observed, of ignoring what is clearly and unambiguously written into it, such as the right to keep and bear arms, while claiming that it asserts other “rights” at which it doesn't even hint, such as abortion. What they wish it said, but clearly does not, is held above what it actually does say.

It seems to me, that at some level, the same sort of delusion is in play with regard to LGBpbWTF-related issues. The obvious essential differences between male and female, and the important roles that these differences play in marriage, family, and society, are ignored in favor of some insane “Gender Fluidity” crap.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

The fact is that the legal issues are, for the most part the same and these bigoted state laws that seek to limit their rights and restrict their behavior do in lump them all together- except for perhaps these idiotic “bathroom” laws that target transgender people. And, it is the legal issues that I started this thread about.

You may think that it is “bigoted” and idiotic to protect women and girls from creepy, mentally-ill, male sexual perverts who want access to them in dressing and restroom facilities, and that is why your side is ultimately going to lose, in spite of any gains that you think the pervert-rights movement has made or will yet make. Those who think it's OK to subject girls and women to such abuse are always going to comprise a small, degenerate minority. You're free to proudly include yourself in that minority, if you wish, but don't deceive yourself into thinking that your side will ever be otherwise.

And feel free, as you continue to promote this attack on the safety, modesty, and virtue of women, to falsely accuse us on the right of waging a “war on women.” Your sick hypocrisy will continue to provide a source of amusement for sane people, and help to show the general public just how degenerate your side truly is.

 

[Skylar]

The fact is that the legal issues are, for the most part the same and these bigoted state laws that seek to limit their rights and restrict their behavior do in lump them all together- except for perhaps these idiotic “bathroom” laws that target transgender people. And, it is the legal issues that I started this thread about.

You may think that it is “bigoted” and idiotic to protect women and girls from creepy, mentally-ill, male sexual perverts who want access to them in dressing and restroom facilities, and that is why your side is ultimately going to lose, in spite of any gains that you think the pervert-rights movement has made or will yet make.

Your logic doesn't make the slightest sense. If someone defies the law to such a degree that they're going to abuse children in restrooms...

.......you think they are going to be stopped cold by a sign that says they can't go into a restroom?

That's just stupid. It would be like assuming that a 'No Bombs Allowed' sign was going to prevent the Brussel's bombing.

And of course, transgender women are just going to the bathroom. What's perverted about using a bathroom? As the potty training manual for toddler's boldly declares 'Everybody Poops'

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

progressives only care about the constitution when some progressive judge makes crap up for them about it.

"Right to Abortion?" HELL YES, "Right to keep and Bear Arms?", HELL NO.

Not just about the Constitution (though very prominently so) but about the world as a whole, it seems that much of modern wrong-wing ideology is heavily based on ignoring what is plain and obvious, in favor of just making stuff up that has no basis in observable reality. With respect to the Constitution, of course, it takes the form, just as you've observed, of ignoring what is clearly and unambiguously written into it, such as the right to keep and bear arms, while claiming that it asserts other “rights” at which it doesn't even hint, such as abortion. What they wish it said, but clearly does not, is held above what it actually does say.

It seems to me, that at some level, the same sort of delusion is in play with regard to LGBpbWTF-related issues. The obvious essential differences between male and female, and the important roles that these differences play in marriage, family, and society, are ignored in favor of some insane “Gender Fluidity” crap.

What the hell does " gender fluidity " have to do with same sex marriage? Are you one of those idiots who thinks that one of the male partners has to be the "wife" and one of the women has to be "butch"?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

The fact is that the legal issues are, for the most part the same and these bigoted state laws that seek to limit their rights and restrict their behavior do in lump them all together- except for perhaps these idiotic “bathroom” laws that target transgender people. And, it is the legal issues that I started this thread about.

You may think that it is “bigoted” and idiotic to protect women and girls from creepy, mentally-ill, male sexual perverts who want access to them in dressing and restroom facilities, and that is why your side is ultimately going to lose, in spite of any gains that you think the pervert-rights movement has made or will yet make. Those who think it's OK to subject girls and women to such abuse are always going to comprise a small, degenerate minority. You're free to proudly include yourself in that minority, if you wish, but don't deceive yourself into thinking that your side will ever be otherwise.

And feel free, as you continue to promote this attack on the safety, modesty, and virtue of women, to falsely accuse us on the right of waging a “war on women.” Your sick hypocrisy will continue to provide a source of amusement for sane people, and help to show the general public just how degenerate your side truly is.

Thank you for that hysterical ( I don't mean funny) over the top rant. I did enjoy it so much. Now maybe you can come up with an example of a child who was molested by a transperson in a bathroom- or anywhere else for that matter..

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

The fact is that the legal issues are, for the most part the same and these bigoted state laws that seek to limit their rights and restrict their behavior do in lump them all together- except for perhaps these idiotic “bathroom” laws that target transgender people. And, it is the legal issues that I started this thread about.

You may think that it is “bigoted” and idiotic to protect women and girls from creepy, mentally-ill, male sexual perverts who want access to them in dressing and restroom facilities, and that is why your side is ultimately going to lose, in spite of any gains that you think the pervert-rights movement has made or will yet make. Those who think it's OK to subject girls and women to such abuse are always going to comprise a small, degenerate minority. You're free to proudly include yourself in that minority, if you wish, but don't deceive yourself into thinking that your side will ever be otherwise.

And feel free, as you continue to promote this attack on the safety, modesty, and virtue of women, to falsely accuse us on the right of waging a “war on women.” Your sick hypocrisy will continue to provide a source of amusement for sane people, and help to show the general public just how degenerate your side truly is.

People you may know, or should....

Boykin's Defense of 'Religious Freedom' Includes Violent Anti-Trans Rhetoric Submitted by Peter Montgomery on Tuesday, 3/8/2016 10:16 am On Saturday retired Lt. Gen. Jerry Boykin, executive vice president of the Family Research Council, addressed the Awakening conference, an annual event sponsored by Liberty Counsel and the Freedom Federation. Boykin, known for his anti-Muslim and anti-gay rhetoric, dedicated his remarks in the plenary session to denouncing Bernie Sanders supporters for wanting free things, and to calling on Christians to do more to stand up for religious freedom and against LGBT equality. Boykin quoted socialist Norman Thomas saying in 1927, “America will never vote for socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program.” Boykin asked, “Is that where we are today?” He declared that support for Sanders is “an indication of the sad state of affairs in this country.” - See more at: Boykin's Defense of 'Religious Freedom' Includes Violent Anti-Trans Rhetoric

Michael Savage: Hillary Clinton Will Become A Dictator Who Will Put 'A Transgender In Your Soup' Submitted by Brian Tashman on Friday, 3/11/2016 11:50 am Earlier this week on “The Savage Nation,” conservative radio host Michael Savage asked listeners what they think would happen to the country after three years of a Hillary Clinton presidency. Savage predicted that a President Clinton would “seize guns” in order to stop an “armed rebellion.” “She is an absolute dictator,” he said. “She will seize guns and make them illegal in any way necessary.” (We can’t help but point out that Savage has frequently predicted that President Obama will seize guns, and he now only has less than a year to do it.) Savage also claimed that Clinton would usher in a societal “meltdown” and “a social nightmare”: “There will be a transgender in your soup.” - See more at: Michael Savage: Hillary Clinton Will Become A Dictator Who Will Put 'A Transgender In Your Soup'

Franklin Graham: Christians Must Take Over Every Mayorship In The Country To Stop 'Evil' LGBT Rights Submitted by Miranda Blue on Friday, 2/12/2016 12:37 pm Franklin Graham is visiting every state in the country this year as part of his “Decision America” tour, in which he is offering technically nonpartisan encouragement to his followers to “live out their faith” in the upcoming elections. At a stop in Atlanta this week, Graham spoke about the need for conservative Christians to not only vote, but to run for office, saying that if every city in America had a Christian mayor, we wouldn’t have “evil” and “wicked” policies like LGBT nondiscrimination measures. Better Georgia first brought the remarks to our attention. - See more at: Franklin Graham: Christians Must Take Over Every Mayorship In The Country To Stop 'Evil' LGBT Rights

There is plenty more where this came from but you get the idea. They all reflect the same mentality.....as do you

 

[ChrisL]

The fact is that the legal issues are, for the most part the same and these bigoted state laws that seek to limit their rights and restrict their behavior do in lump them all together- except for perhaps these idiotic “bathroom” laws that target transgender people. And, it is the legal issues that I started this thread about.

You may think that it is “bigoted” and idiotic to protect women and girls from creepy, mentally-ill, male sexual perverts who want access to them in dressing and restroom facilities, and that is why your side is ultimately going to lose, in spite of any gains that you think the pervert-rights movement has made or will yet make. Those who think it's OK to subject girls and women to such abuse are always going to comprise a small, degenerate minority. You're free to proudly include yourself in that minority, if you wish, but don't deceive yourself into thinking that your side will ever be otherwise.

And feel free, as you continue to promote this attack on the safety, modesty, and virtue of women, to falsely accuse us on the right of waging a “war on women.” Your sick hypocrisy will continue to provide a source of amusement for sane people, and help to show the general public just how degenerate your side truly is.

People you may know, or should....

Boykin's Defense of 'Religious Freedom' Includes Violent Anti-Trans Rhetoric Submitted by Peter Montgomery on Tuesday, 3/8/2016 10:16 am On Saturday retired Lt. Gen. Jerry Boykin, executive vice president of the Family Research Council, addressed the Awakening conference, an annual event sponsored by Liberty Counsel and the Freedom Federation. Boykin, known for his anti-Muslim and anti-gay rhetoric, dedicated his remarks in the plenary session to denouncing Bernie Sanders supporters for wanting free things, and to calling on Christians to do more to stand up for religious freedom and against LGBT equality. Boykin quoted socialist Norman Thomas saying in 1927, “America will never vote for socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program.” Boykin asked, “Is that where we are today?” He declared that support for Sanders is “an indication of the sad state of affairs in this country.” - See more at: Boykin's Defense of 'Religious Freedom' Includes Violent Anti-Trans Rhetoric

Michael Savage: Hillary Clinton Will Become A Dictator Who Will Put 'A Transgender In Your Soup' Submitted by Brian Tashman on Friday, 3/11/2016 11:50 am Earlier this week on “The Savage Nation,” conservative radio host Michael Savage asked listeners what they think would happen to the country after three years of a Hillary Clinton presidency. Savage predicted that a President Clinton would “seize guns” in order to stop an “armed rebellion.” “She is an absolute dictator,” he said. “She will seize guns and make them illegal in any way necessary.” (We can’t help but point out that Savage has frequently predicted that President Obama will seize guns, and he now only has less than a year to do it.) Savage also claimed that Clinton would usher in a societal “meltdown” and “a social nightmare”: “There will be a transgender in your soup.” - See more at: Michael Savage: Hillary Clinton Will Become A Dictator Who Will Put 'A Transgender In Your Soup'

Franklin Graham: Christians Must Take Over Every Mayorship In The Country To Stop 'Evil' LGBT Rights Submitted by Miranda Blue on Friday, 2/12/2016 12:37 pm Franklin Graham is visiting every state in the country this year as part of his “Decision America” tour, in which he is offering technically nonpartisan encouragement to his followers to “live out their faith” in the upcoming elections. At a stop in Atlanta this week, Graham spoke about the need for conservative Christians to not only vote, but to run for office, saying that if every city in America had a Christian mayor, we wouldn’t have “evil” and “wicked” policies like LGBT nondiscrimination measures. Better Georgia first brought the remarks to our attention. - See more at: Franklin Graham: Christians Must Take Over Every Mayorship In The Country To Stop 'Evil' LGBT Rights

There is plenty more where this came from but you get the idea. They all reflect the same mentality.....as do you

A lot of "older" people are very frightened of change and of that which they do not understand, and that manifests itself as hatred. They are very ignorant and they don't even realize it (mainly because they are ignorant).

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

No excuse! If you are a human being with a brain, you should be able to learn, grow, and evolve. You should get wiser, not stupid as you grow older. You should be able to have empathy and compassion for others who are different and think that it's all about you like a 3 year old.

I am 68 years old and came up at a time when homophobia was ramped and acceptable, and these other things were unheard of. I engaged in my share of ignorant gay bashing as a kid. The difference is that I grew the fuck up. I'm not perfect but I do know that hatred is a disease of the brain. I might have to listen to their crap, but I thank the Gods and Goddesses every day that I am not them.

 

[ChrisL]

No excuse! If you are a human being with a brain, you should be able to learn, grow, and evolve. You should get wiser, not stupid as you grow older. You should be able to have empathy and compassion for others who are different and think that it's all about you like a 3 year old.

I am 68 years old and came up at a time when homophobia was ramped and acceptable, and these other things were unheard of. I engaged in my share of ignorant gay bashing as a kid. The difference is that I grew the fuck up. I'm not perfect but I do know that hatred is a disease of the brain. I might have to listen to their crap, but I thank the Gods and Goddesses every day that I am not them.

Some people never grow up! Obviously.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

No excuse! If you are a human being with a brain, you should be able to learn, grow, and evolve. You should get wiser, not stupid as you grow older. You should be able to have empathy and compassion for others who are different and think that it's all about you like a 3 year old.

I am 68 years old and came up at a time when homophobia was ramped and acceptable, and these other things were unheard of. I engaged in my share of ignorant gay bashing as a kid. The difference is that I grew the fuck up. I'm not perfect but I do know that hatred is a disease of the brain. I might have to listen to their crap, but I thank the Gods and Goddesses every day that I am not them.

Some people never grow up! Obviously.

These people were probably special-ed students and school yard bullies, and they are still bullies

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Related horseshit....

Arkansas attorney general will appeal after judge upholds local anti-LGBT discrimination statute

The Arkansas attorney general said on Wednesday her office will appeal a judge’s decision that upheld a city of Fayetteville ordinance forbidding discrimination against members of the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community.

Attorney General Leslie Rutledge, a Republican, said her office will ask the state’s Supreme Court to strike down the decision because the ordinance runs counter to a state law barring localities from broadening their own non-discrimination measures beyond the state’s measures.

MN sponsor of anti-trans bill wants gays to ‘receive treatment’ for ‘unhealthy sexual addiction’

Republican Minnesota state Rep. Glenn Gruenhagen argued recently that gay, lesbian and transgender people were mentally ill and should “receive treatment” instead of legal protections.

While speaking to WCCO radio host Chad Hartman last week, Gruenhagen explained that he was not pandering to his extremist constituents by sponsoring a bill that would force transgender people to use bathrooms corresponding to their “biological sex” instead of their gender.

 

[flacaltenn]

The fact is that the legal issues are, for the most part the same and these bigoted state laws that seek to limit their rights and restrict their behavior do in lump them all together- except for perhaps these idiotic “bathroom” laws that target transgender people. And, it is the legal issues that I started this thread about.

You may think that it is “bigoted” and idiotic to protect women and girls from creepy, mentally-ill, male sexual perverts who want access to them in dressing and restroom facilities, and that is why your side is ultimately going to lose, in spite of any gains that you think the pervert-rights movement has made or will yet make. Those who think it's OK to subject girls and women to such abuse are always going to comprise a small, degenerate minority. You're free to proudly include yourself in that minority, if you wish, but don't deceive yourself into thinking that your side will ever be otherwise.

And feel free, as you continue to promote this attack on the safety, modesty, and virtue of women, to falsely accuse us on the right of waging a “war on women.” Your sick hypocrisy will continue to provide a source of amusement for sane people, and help to show the general public just how degenerate your side truly is.

Thank you for that hysterical ( I don't mean funny) over the top rant. I did enjoy it so much. Now maybe you can come up with an example of a child who was molested by a transperson in a bathroom- or anywhere else for that matter..

Don't think you're getting the sincere concerns from your "opposition". So you will NEVER understand where your opposition comes from.. I MAY HAVE some interest in protecting the rights of gays or trannies, but pushing laws about bathrooms is REALLY counterproductive to those aims.

And before you tell me that NOBODY is doing that. Read the damn news or the threads on this forum. They are FRONT PAGE with keeping the weenies out of the little girls room..

The concerns that you are MISSING is that "orientation" is not as testable or obvious as religion or race. And there is ALL manner of malarkey and mayhem that yahoos and crazies will bring to a "choice" in which facilities they declare THEMSELVES eligible to use. If I was in High School, I'd might have declared "trans" for a month just because I could.. And because of the heavenly access that might have given me. These battles and concerns are real.. And you really need to realize that there some places the law probably CAN'T be effective. I would think EACH of those orientations has it's OWN legal priorities and issues. And YOU shouldn't be loading the train with ALL of them as the same deal..

 

[flacaltenn]

The fact is that the legal issues are, for the most part the same and these bigoted state laws that seek to limit their rights and restrict their behavior do in lump them all together- except for perhaps these idiotic “bathroom” laws that target transgender people. And, it is the legal issues that I started this thread about.

You may think that it is “bigoted” and idiotic to protect women and girls from creepy, mentally-ill, male sexual perverts who want access to them in dressing and restroom facilities, and that is why your side is ultimately going to lose, in spite of any gains that you think the pervert-rights movement has made or will yet make. Those who think it's OK to subject girls and women to such abuse are always going to comprise a small, degenerate minority. You're free to proudly include yourself in that minority, if you wish, but don't deceive yourself into thinking that your side will ever be otherwise.

And feel free, as you continue to promote this attack on the safety, modesty, and virtue of women, to falsely accuse us on the right of waging a “war on women.” Your sick hypocrisy will continue to provide a source of amusement for sane people, and help to show the general public just how degenerate your side truly is.

People you may know, or should....

Boykin's Defense of 'Religious Freedom' Includes Violent Anti-Trans Rhetoric Submitted by Peter Montgomery on Tuesday, 3/8/2016 10:16 am On Saturday retired Lt. Gen. Jerry Boykin, executive vice president of the Family Research Council, addressed the Awakening conference, an annual event sponsored by Liberty Counsel and the Freedom Federation. Boykin, known for his anti-Muslim and anti-gay rhetoric, dedicated his remarks in the plenary session to denouncing Bernie Sanders supporters for wanting free things, and to calling on Christians to do more to stand up for religious freedom and against LGBT equality. Boykin quoted socialist Norman Thomas saying in 1927, “America will never vote for socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program.” Boykin asked, “Is that where we are today?” He declared that support for Sanders is “an indication of the sad state of affairs in this country.” - See more at: Boykin's Defense of 'Religious Freedom' Includes Violent Anti-Trans Rhetoric

Michael Savage: Hillary Clinton Will Become A Dictator Who Will Put 'A Transgender In Your Soup' Submitted by Brian Tashman on Friday, 3/11/2016 11:50 am Earlier this week on “The Savage Nation,” conservative radio host Michael Savage asked listeners what they think would happen to the country after three years of a Hillary Clinton presidency. Savage predicted that a President Clinton would “seize guns” in order to stop an “armed rebellion.” “She is an absolute dictator,” he said. “She will seize guns and make them illegal in any way necessary.” (We can’t help but point out that Savage has frequently predicted that President Obama will seize guns, and he now only has less than a year to do it.) Savage also claimed that Clinton would usher in a societal “meltdown” and “a social nightmare”: “There will be a transgender in your soup.” - See more at: Michael Savage: Hillary Clinton Will Become A Dictator Who Will Put 'A Transgender In Your Soup'

Franklin Graham: Christians Must Take Over Every Mayorship In The Country To Stop 'Evil' LGBT Rights Submitted by Miranda Blue on Friday, 2/12/2016 12:37 pm Franklin Graham is visiting every state in the country this year as part of his “Decision America” tour, in which he is offering technically nonpartisan encouragement to his followers to “live out their faith” in the upcoming elections. At a stop in Atlanta this week, Graham spoke about the need for conservative Christians to not only vote, but to run for office, saying that if every city in America had a Christian mayor, we wouldn’t have “evil” and “wicked” policies like LGBT nondiscrimination measures. Better Georgia first brought the remarks to our attention. - See more at: Franklin Graham: Christians Must Take Over Every Mayorship In The Country To Stop 'Evil' LGBT Rights

There is plenty more where this came from but you get the idea. They all reflect the same mentality.....as do you

A lot of "older" people are very frightened of change and of that which they do not understand, and that manifests itself as hatred. They are very ignorant and they don't even realize it (mainly because they are ignorant).

Really? Think they are incapable of seeing how sketchy folks declaring themselves "trans" would have legal access to your bathrooms? Incapable of calculating that polyamory is the NEXT letter in the LBGQPTY banner?

Have you EXAMINED the "change" and limits of it's reasonable and just scope?