What's Christian About Denying Service To Any Individual?
- Thread starter MarcATL
- Start date
PostmodernProph
....fully immersed....
the hydra awakes
jingoism rears it's misshapen head!
so has tyranny.....
apt.....gay sex obviously has head....
Nosmo King
Gold Member
Do you believe that novelty cakes and cakes with explicitly erotic themes and decore are the usual cake served at a same se wedding? Are there bakers decorating novelty cakes with explicitly heterosexual acts? Are such cakes the usual at heterosexual weddings? If we googled erotic cakes, how many bachelorette cakes could be the same as erotic gay themed cakes? If the client was a bachelorette party, would the baker be just as offended? If the client is a bachelor party with a cake loaded with a naked woman, is that offensive and sexist? Would the same baker be so off put as to refuse service?
Could it be that it's not the content of the cake as much as the content of the clients sexual orientation?
Nosmo King
Gold Member
You use Corinthians as an aegis. You advocate that Christians who do not agree with you and your single issue Christianity are false Christians. I wonder if you believe everything written in the New Testament must either be taken literally and that every precept laid forth in the New Testament must be followed.
Should we also be handling snakes? Do the Amish have it right and we are sinning by posting on this board? Should we all grow breads and shun rounding the corners of our heads?
I believe in the prime directive of Christianity. Love one another even as Christ loves us. If He refused service to any sinner, you might have a leg to stand on. If He refused to cast the first stone and called upon those without sin to do so, how is it you are without sin?
Andylusion
Platinum Member
You are confusing clear cut spelled out doctrine, with grey areas, that are ambiguous.
Does the Bible say for Christians to handle snakes? No it does not. It says that people who believe and go in the name of Jesus, will drive out demons, pick up snakes, drink poison, and heal people with laying on of hands.
I would suggest that all of those have happened. But there is a huge difference between those things happening, and "Go pick up snakes in Church". The Bible does not say that. It's not there. You tell me where it clearly spells out that all Christians should go pick up snakes. Not there.
Now some have determined on their own, that the verse talking about such, means for them to do that. But that is a grey area. It's not spelled out they way. And I can meet Christians who believe in handling snakes, and we can talk and have a great time as fellow Christians, and yet disagree on this unimportant grey area.
On the other hand, there are other things that are spelled out with absolute unambiguous clarity.
Divorce and Adultery is a sin. Matthew 5:32. If you divorce and marry someone else, you are sinning against G-d. Period.
Screwing an animal, is a sin. Leviticus 18:23. If you lay with any non-human animal, you are sinning against G-d. Period.
Boinking your boyfriend, or girl friend, is a sin. 1 Corinthians 6:18. If you are shacking up and screwing your boy/girl friend, you are sinning against G-d. Period.
Homosexuality, is a sin. 1 Timothy 1:10. If you are a guy screwing a guy, or a girl doing whatever they call sex to another girl, you are sinning against G-d. Period.
Period.
These are clear cut, unambiguous, no grey area at all, absolute laws of G-d. They are not up for debate. You want to debate it, feel free when you stand before the judgement seat of Christ, and tell him how he was wrong. But as for me, you are wasting your time. I don't care.... I didn't write it. I'm not the one in charge. G-d is. Not me. Debating me, on what G-d himself said, is a waste of your time.
And when other Christians say "well you are not the arbitor of true faith", my answer no, I'm not, but G-d is, and he spelled it out.
Luke 6:46 Jesus spelled this out further.
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”
And lastly.... You said
What are you talking about? Jesus refused service to sinners several times.
Matthew 13:58
"And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith."
Hey Jesus, why are you not healing people, and making wine out of water, and feeding thousands of hungry people?
Because you didn't have faith, so no service to you.
Or how about John 2:15
"So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables."
He drove out of the temple dozens of people. Sorry, you are not welcome at the Lord's Temple. Get out and leave. Don't come back.
Here's the difference. We're not throwing stones dude. I'm not condemning anyone. Refusing to participate in evil, is not "judging". Refusing to abide people in the Church that are living completely anti-Christian lives, is not judging them. It's upholding G-d's law. We're not dragging people out of their beds, and marching them through the streets to a hangman's noose.
You want to live that way? Fine. Knock yourself out. But you can't ruin the church. You can't be apart of our group. Our group stands for something. It stands for Christ, and what he told us in the Bible.
And one last thing. The whole Bible is Jesus Christ. It was for Jesus the world was created. It was for Jesus the Israelites were selected. It was for Jesus the prophets were sent. It was for Jesus the words were written, and the books collected, and the Bible made. The reason Jesus didn't write his own book, is because the entire book is him. From Genesis, to Revelations, and everything in between, is all Jesus Christ the Lord.
Quantum Windbag
Gold Member
- May 9, 2010
- 58,308
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What? How the **** am I trying to control you? Am I demanding that you stop talking? Have I threatened to sue you if you don't agree with me? Do you have a functioning brain in that lump of matter you use to keep your ears from flapping against each other when you turn?
You, personally, are free to attend gay weddings whenever you want. When another Christian approaches you about attending gay weddings, asking you what you think, you, once again, are free to present your arguments about why it is not a sin. Want to explain to me how that is me forcing you to ******* do anything?
This is where it gets complicated. What obligations, as a Christian, do you owe a fellow believer who actually, even if they are 100% wrong, thinks something is a sin? That is what I am pointing at. 1 Corinthians 8 deals specifically with how Christians should approach a matter that other Christians think is wrong, but that they know is not. It contains no commands, and I can not use it to force any behavior on you, all I can do is show you how you, as a Christian, should treat other Christians.
I advocate no such thing, asshole. You are the one doing that by insisting that only your interpretation of right and wrong can be applied. I am pointing out that Paul, when confronted by people who believed something was wrong when he knew it wasn't, chose to avoid eating meat sacrificed to idols in order to protect weaker Christians from doing something they think is wrong simply because they saw him doing it. He was actually concerned that his actions, even though he was right, would lead other people into sin.
I have freinds who are alcoholics, I am not. By your logic I should be offering them drinks. By mine, and that of every other compassionate human being on the planet, I should chose not to drink in front of them.
Paul was willing to not eat meat to protect other people from falling into sin. You want to make it a crime for people to do something simply because you don't think it is a sin.
I have met snake handlers, none of them ever tried to pass a law forcing me to handle snakes. In fact, they specifically tell me that, unless I fully believe that God will protect me from danger even if I get bit, I shouldn't handle them. You, on the other hand, want to use them as an example of how not to behave.
As for the Amish, being a Christian, I would never post on this board in front of them. You, on the other hand, would see no problem with exposing them to something they perceive as wrong, and even encourage them to violate their principles.
You are willing to force your beliefs down everyone's throats. That makes you a Crusader, and wrong. Nothing you can say will stop you from being wrong until you repent and stop trying to impose your religion on everyone else.
That is why you are a Fake Christian, just like all the Fake Christians that wen to war to impose their religion on others throughout history.
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Newby
Does it get any better?
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Statistikhengst
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #750
I can accept every word of that holiness so long as you guys also refuse to associate with:
smokers
drinkers
the obese
the lazy
anyone who has had an affair
anyone who walks for more than 15 paces on the Sabbath once it begins to rain
anyone who writes or uses any kind of machine on the Sabbath
anyone who has masturbated - even one single solitary time
and the list goes on and one.
For those are also "evil" sins, clearly laid out as such in the Pentateuch. And most of them are even in with the seven deadly sins. And those sins have been referred to and enumerated far many more times in the Bible than the sin of homosexuality, by a longshot.
So, as soon as you refuse to associate or do any kind of business with all of those people, I will gladly accept your position and know that you are not being hypocritical about it.
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PostmodernProph
....fully immersed....
and yet, they aren't among the five that are linked by the Hebrew word they have in common.....idolatry, human sacrifice, incest, bestiality and homosexual sex....
Andylusion
Platinum Member
I can accept every word of that holiness so long as you guys also refuse to associate with:
smokers
drinkers
the obese
the lazy
anyone who has had an affair
anyone who walks for more than 15 paces on the Sabbath once it begins to rain
anyone who writes or uses any kind of machine on the Sabbath
anyone who has masturbated - even one single solitary time
and the list goes on and one.
For those are also "evil" sins, clearly laid out as such in the Pentateuch. And most of them are even in with the seven deadly sins. And those sins have been referred to and enumerated far many more times in the Bible than the sin of homosexuality, by a longshot.
So, as soon as you refuse to associate or do any kind of business with all of those people, I will gladly accept your position and know that you are not being hypocritical about it.
Show me:
Thou shalt not smoke.
Thou shalt not drink alcohol.
It's not there.
Now there is a don't be drunk. Dunk, and drinking are not the same. Again, Jesus very first miracle, was making wine..... as in.... WINE..... as in alcoholic wine.
Drinking is not a sin. Being a drunkard.... is a sin. Huge difference. Massive difference.
As for affairs and masturbation, yeah. The key is repentance. If you repent, no problem. We serve a forgiving G-d, provided you repent.
If you are trying to tell me that everyone who has ever sinned, can't be in church, you are crazy. You don't know the Bible. Paul was a murderer. He repented.
As for the other fruity claims. Unless you are Jewish, that really isn't relevant. If you want to debate that, I got other things to do. I'm not Jewish, and I don't care.
Statistikhengst
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #753
I can accept every word of that holiness so long as you guys also refuse to associate with:
smokers
drinkers
the obese
the lazy
anyone who has had an affair
anyone who walks for more than 15 paces on the Sabbath once it begins to rain
anyone who writes or uses any kind of machine on the Sabbath
anyone who has masturbated - even one single solitary time
and the list goes on and one.
For those are also "evil" sins, clearly laid out as such in the Pentateuch. And most of them are even in with the seven deadly sins. And those sins have been referred to and enumerated far many more times in the Bible than the sin of homosexuality, by a longshot.
So, as soon as you refuse to associate or do any kind of business with all of those people, I will gladly accept your position and know that you are not being hypocritical about it.
Show me:
Thou shalt not smoke.
Thou shalt not drink alcohol.
It's not there.
Now there is a don't be drunk. Dunk, and drinking are not the same. Again, Jesus very first miracle, was making wine..... as in.... WINE..... as in alcoholic wine.
Drinking is not a sin. Being a drunkard.... is a sin. Huge difference. Massive difference.
As for affairs and masturbation, yeah. The key is repentance. If you repent, no problem. We serve a forgiving G-d, provided you repent.
If you are trying to tell me that everyone who has ever sinned, can't be in church, you are crazy. You don't know the Bible. Paul was a murderer. He repented.
As for the other fruity claims. Unless you are Jewish, that really isn't relevant. If you want to debate that, I got other things to do. I'm not Jewish, and I don't care.
IN the Torah, it is expressely forbidden to destroy the physical temple of G-d, meaning the human body. Smoking and drinking to excess do just that.
I probably know the Christian Bible much better than you realize... and also enough to know that your hubris is not what Yeshuah wanted you to exhibit.
Statistikhengst
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #754
Statistikhengst
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #755
I can accept every word of that holiness so long as you guys also refuse to associate with:
smokers
drinkers
the obese
the lazy
anyone who has had an affair
anyone who walks for more than 15 paces on the Sabbath once it begins to rain
anyone who writes or uses any kind of machine on the Sabbath
anyone who has masturbated - even one single solitary time
and the list goes on and one.
For those are also "evil" sins, clearly laid out as such in the Pentateuch. And most of them are even in with the seven deadly sins. And those sins have been referred to and enumerated far many more times in the Bible than the sin of homosexuality, by a longshot.
So, as soon as you refuse to associate or do any kind of business with all of those people, I will gladly accept your position and know that you are not being hypocritical about it.
Show me:
Thou shalt not smoke.
Thou shalt not drink alcohol.
It's not there.
Now there is a don't be drunk. Dunk, and drinking are not the same. Again, Jesus very first miracle, was making wine..... as in.... WINE..... as in alcoholic wine.
Drinking is not a sin. Being a drunkard.... is a sin. Huge difference. Massive difference.
As for affairs and masturbation, yeah. The key is repentance. If you repent, no problem. We serve a forgiving G-d, provided you repent.
If you are trying to tell me that everyone who has ever sinned, can't be in church, you are crazy. You don't know the Bible. Paul was a murderer. He repented.
As for the other fruity claims. Unless you are Jewish, that really isn't relevant. If you want to debate that, I got other things to do. I'm not Jewish, and I don't care.
No, I am telling you that if a business owned by a Christian should be able to deny service to a gay person because of his/her beliefs, then he should also be denying service to all of those on the list I provided you with, and more, even.
You also very nicely backed up my argument (thanks!) stating that repentance is always possible, so if you are using the (chuckle, chuckle) logic that Christians can grant service to others who have also commiteed far more egregious sins because they think that some day that person will repent, why not the same with gays.
I am laughing every day when I see this stuff. Really, I am. It makes Christians look crazy, which is a shame, for most of them are not.
Andylusion
Platinum Member
I can accept every word of that holiness so long as you guys also refuse to associate with:
smokers
drinkers
the obese
the lazy
anyone who has had an affair
anyone who walks for more than 15 paces on the Sabbath once it begins to rain
anyone who writes or uses any kind of machine on the Sabbath
anyone who has masturbated - even one single solitary time
and the list goes on and one.
For those are also "evil" sins, clearly laid out as such in the Pentateuch. And most of them are even in with the seven deadly sins. And those sins have been referred to and enumerated far many more times in the Bible than the sin of homosexuality, by a longshot.
So, as soon as you refuse to associate or do any kind of business with all of those people, I will gladly accept your position and know that you are not being hypocritical about it.
Show me:
Thou shalt not smoke.
Thou shalt not drink alcohol.
It's not there.
Now there is a don't be drunk. Dunk, and drinking are not the same. Again, Jesus very first miracle, was making wine..... as in.... WINE..... as in alcoholic wine.
Drinking is not a sin. Being a drunkard.... is a sin. Huge difference. Massive difference.
As for affairs and masturbation, yeah. The key is repentance. If you repent, no problem. We serve a forgiving G-d, provided you repent.
If you are trying to tell me that everyone who has ever sinned, can't be in church, you are crazy. You don't know the Bible. Paul was a murderer. He repented.
As for the other fruity claims. Unless you are Jewish, that really isn't relevant. If you want to debate that, I got other things to do. I'm not Jewish, and I don't care.
IN the Torah, it is expressely forbidden to destroy the physical temple of G-d, meaning the human body. Smoking and drinking to excess do just that.
I probably know the Christian Bible much better than you realize... and also enough to know that your hubris is not what Yeshuah wanted you to exhibit.
If you were a Christian, you would not be talking to be about the Torah. Obviously you are non-christian.
Thus, dude... go do whatever you want. It's no skin off my back. I don't care what non-christians do in their life, so long as they don't try to force me to deal with them.
As to you trying to tell me what Yeshuah wants... that's funny. I'm not debating a non-Christian what he think Yeshuah wants.
We who are Christians, are not bound by what non-christians think. So you can try and debate me on this, but standards answer to a non-christian is... I don't care. I don't need to justify myself to you. Sorry.
Andylusion
Platinum Member
I can accept every word of that holiness so long as you guys also refuse to associate with:
smokers
drinkers
the obese
the lazy
anyone who has had an affair
anyone who walks for more than 15 paces on the Sabbath once it begins to rain
anyone who writes or uses any kind of machine on the Sabbath
anyone who has masturbated - even one single solitary time
and the list goes on and one.
For those are also "evil" sins, clearly laid out as such in the Pentateuch. And most of them are even in with the seven deadly sins. And those sins have been referred to and enumerated far many more times in the Bible than the sin of homosexuality, by a longshot.
So, as soon as you refuse to associate or do any kind of business with all of those people, I will gladly accept your position and know that you are not being hypocritical about it.
Show me:
Thou shalt not smoke.
Thou shalt not drink alcohol.
It's not there.
Now there is a don't be drunk. Dunk, and drinking are not the same. Again, Jesus very first miracle, was making wine..... as in.... WINE..... as in alcoholic wine.
Drinking is not a sin. Being a drunkard.... is a sin. Huge difference. Massive difference.
As for affairs and masturbation, yeah. The key is repentance. If you repent, no problem. We serve a forgiving G-d, provided you repent.
If you are trying to tell me that everyone who has ever sinned, can't be in church, you are crazy. You don't know the Bible. Paul was a murderer. He repented.
As for the other fruity claims. Unless you are Jewish, that really isn't relevant. If you want to debate that, I got other things to do. I'm not Jewish, and I don't care.
No, I am telling you that if a business owned by a Christian should be able to deny service to a gay person because of his/her beliefs, then he should also be denying service to all of those on the list I provided you with, and more, even.
You also very nicely backed up my argument (thanks!) stating that repentance is always possible, so if you are using the (chuckle, chuckle) logic that Christians can grant service to others who have also commiteed far more egregious sins because they think that some day that person will repent, why not the same with gays.
I am laughing every day when I see this stuff. Really, I am. It makes Christians look crazy, which is a shame, for most of them are not.
No no... It's not "some day they might repent".
We had a member of our church that was committing adultery. We gave him a chance to fix it. He didn't. We kicked him out. He was not allowed into our church anymore.
There was another guy that was sleeping with his girl friend, who he was engaged to. We kicked him out. After he was married, he still refused to admit he did anything wrong. We kept him out.
Now if some day in the distant future, either actually chooses to repent, and go back to his wife, and break off the relationship with the adulterous woman, and if he does this over a long enough time frame, with consistency.... then perhaps we will allow him to return. If the other at some point completely admits his sin, with consistency over a period of time... then perhaps we will allow him to return.
But it's not a "well this person might repent someday, so let's let him in"... no fail. Not going there.
Back to the business question, yes absolutely. To all those things.
This part is mind boggling to me. What part of "PRIVATE PROPERTY" do you not get?
If I own that property, I can make up whatever rules I want. If I say I want to have a party at my house, but I have a rule that only people wearing pink flip flops can come to my party, but otherwise anyone is welcome....
Guess what dude? It is.... MY PROPERTY..... I can have ANY RULE I WANT, on my property.
If I say no blond haired people are allowed on my property, or are allowed to use my hair cutting service....... MY PROPERTY.... and I can have ANY RULE I WANT ON MY PROPERTY.
What is so hard about this for you people? Do we have freedom or is this just another left-wing dictatorship?
I'm a white blond hair blue eyed, male. If I show up at the Black Panther's club, and demand to join, they are going to laugh me off their property.... why? CAUSE IT IS THEIR PROPERTY. They have rules. White people not allowed. That's ok. It's their group, it's their property, it's their stuff. They can have that rule.
Battered Women's Shelter that offer free beds, and clothing, and food, and health care, and other things, near by.
If I show up and demand service, can they reject me? Yes. Why? Cause I'm not battered, and not a women. HOW DARE THEY PREVENT ME EQUAL ACCESS!!!!
Dude... it's their property. It's their service. They can do with their property, and their service, whatever they want.
Why is that so hard for you people?
- Moderator
- #758
If someone wants to hire you as a prostitute, are you seriously suggesting a Christian would have to provide said service?
Nosmo King
Gold Member
What, aside from possibly a cake topper featuring two brides or two grooms, would make a same sex wedding cake so radically difficult for a supposed Christian baker to provide?
Or are these bakers asked to decorate erotic cakes? Cakes with a distinctively adult, sexual theme? If a bachelorette party orders a cake featuring male genitalia or otherwise erotic themes, would the baker still refuse service? Is it the nature of the cake, or the nature of the clientele that makes same sex wedding cakes so troublesome for the "Christian" bakers?
If it's the nature of the cake itself, I can understand bakers refusing service. But that refusal must be universal, no matter the client.
But if the refusal is simply because the client is homosexual, then the baker should provide the exact same service he would provide every other client.
Or are these bakers asked to decorate erotic cakes? Cakes with a distinctively adult, sexual theme? If a bachelorette party orders a cake featuring male genitalia or otherwise erotic themes, would the baker still refuse service? Is it the nature of the cake, or the nature of the clientele that makes same sex wedding cakes so troublesome for the "Christian" bakers?
If it's the nature of the cake itself, I can understand bakers refusing service. But that refusal must be universal, no matter the client.
But if the refusal is simply because the client is homosexual, then the baker should provide the exact same service he would provide every other client.
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