What would happen to the United States if Conservatives left?

[Foxfyre]

I believe many, the heavy lifting in a democracy is done are those willing to fight on a battle field to preserve the freedoms and privileges before enjoying those freedoms and privileges in a safe, controlled environment such as a university or a courtroom.

And those not privileged to actually do battle for their country can at least do the heavy lifting necessary to make better choices, educate ourselves, learn a trade, and be willing to start at the bottom and work our way to prosperity. The conservative doesn't want anything from others apart from having his unalienable rights recognized and secured and then to be unhindered in living his life, contributing what he can, accomplishing what he can accomplish. And we all can contribute via self sufficiency, personal responsbility and integrity, and lead by personal example.

Those who grow up with a sense of entitlement that what is theirs is theirs and some of everybody else's should also be theirs are the ones who would be the most shell shocked if they were thrown in with people who are all like them. And when they realize that government serves mostly government, is not a reliable mommy for all the people who want to be provided for, and those people start preying on each other for available resources, I think we would see a whole new generation of staunch conservatives born really quickly.

This is called circular reasoning.

Conservatives are nothing but good because that's what I am.

I am a conservative because they are nothing but good.

My question is, if they're nothing but good, how can we explain the worst President in our history and the overwhelming damage caused during his administration?

Your problem is not your conservatism, it is your extremism.

And you still seem to have a serious reading dysfunction PMZ when you manage to read so much into a post that isn't there even when we disregard the non sequiturs, red herrings, and straw men.

So I am extremist because I believe in conservative values. Does it logically follow that you who has already applauded socialist values is the unextreme one? I'll leave you to answer that.

 

[Bfgrn]

I put this topic here because I want honest answers and no flaming. As a right leaning guy I love the left and wouldnt want to see them go. But why does the left hate Republicans so bad? Their history is after all the Anti-Slave party. p.s. sorry about any typo's I wrote this on the fly because I am so curious what would you think happen to the US if cons left

I don't think the 'Left' hates normal, reasonable, thinking conservatives; I think they hate the crazies, and in recent times, it seems the crazies are taking over the GOP. American politics has become so deeply partisan, it is amazing the country manages to function. The hate goes both ways. We need more than 2 viable parties.

As there are a LOT of leftists among my friends, family, neighbors, and associates I agree. Almost nobody would confuse me with a leftist. But we manage to love each other despite political or ideological differences.

But the fact is, it is an extremely rare leftist who can even define or articulate a clearly conservative point of view in a charitable, accurate, and/or complete manner. Or their own for that matter. Most conservatives can do both fairly competently.

If all liberals/leftists/progressive left, Conservatives would step up to fill any vacuums that would exist and otherwise would not do anything much differently than they do now. They might have a better shot at restoring the government the Founders intended us to have, and would certainly change a lot of things like the media and education, and healthcare that are currently controlled mostly by leftists. But for the most part, it would be pretty much business as usual for them. They certainly would not become leftists.

And I think leftists, without the conservatives to stabilize things, could likely realize what an unsustainable house of cards their philosophy is and would likely start adopting conservative concepts really quickly. The danger would be that things would have spiraled completely out of control and would be irreversible by the time they figured out how to do that.

Anyway, it is an interesting perspective. Might be a vehicle for a profound literary work along the lines of Rand or Orwell.

XXXXXXX

From FDR's New Deal through LBJ's Great Society America was dominated by liberals rule. From Nixon, then Reagan on, America has been dominated by conservative rule. The results have been catastrophic. Under ANY measure, criteria or comparison.

Conservatives have built the biggest Debtor State and Nanny State in world history.

"The debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party's embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don't matter if they result from tax cuts."
David Stockman - Director of the Office of Management and Budget for U.S. President Ronald Reagan

 

[Dugdale_Jukes]

I put this topic here because I want honest answers and no flaming. As a right leaning guy I love the left and wouldnt want to see them go. But why does the left hate Republicans so bad? Their history is after all the Anti-Slave party. p.s. sorry about any typo's I wrote this on the fly because I am so curious what would you think happen to the US if cons left

I don't think the 'Left' hates normal, reasonable, thinking conservatives; I think they hate the crazies, and in recent times, it seems the crazies are taking over the GOP. American politics has become so deeply partisan, it is amazing the country manages to function. The hate goes both ways. We need more than 2 viable parties.

[snip]

...the fact is, it is an extremely rare leftist who can even define or articulate a clearly conservative point of view in a charitable, accurate, and/or complete manner. Or their own for that matter. Most conservatives can do both fairly competently.

[snip]

Anyway, it is an interesting perspective. Might be a vehicle for a profound literary work along the lines of Rand or Orwell.

A. In my opinion Rand was far from profound; was more of a carnival act not to dissimilar from Reagan, another second tier figure able to get Republicans to eat out of his hand. Rand is in my opinion about as close to Orwell as an economic or political theorist as Larry Fine was to Machiavelli as a court manipulator.

B. "Most"? Seems a little vague.

 

[Intense]

This is the CDZ. Civil Discourse applies. No Name Calling, No Put Downs, No Flaming, Other Posters.

 

[Dugdale_Jukes]

So what got your attention, mod, Foxfyre insulting liberals as unable to articulate their positions while praising the articulateness and budgetary canniness of the Glen Beck set, or bfgrn's chart proving beyond a shadow of a doubt the scurrilousness of claims Republicans are canny budget meisters? I don't want to get outside the lines here myself.

 

[Foxfyre]

So what got your attention, mod, Foxfyre insulting liberals as unable to articulate their positions while praising the articulateness and budgetary canniness of the Glen Beck set, or bfgrn's chart proving beyond a shadow of a doubt the scurrilousness of claims Republicans are canny budget meisters? I don't want to get outside the lines here myself.

Sorry if I was offensive, but the topic of the thread is what happens if conservatives leave. And it is simply impossible to discuss that without ruffling the feathers of liberals when we hold heartfelt convictions that modern day American conservatism, which coincidentally is pretty close the Founders classical liberalism, is far superior to modern day American liberalism.

I have not called liberals evil or bad, but if I cannot make the argument of the likely consequences of liberalism should that be all that was left in America, it is pretty difficult to address the topic at all.

 

[Foxfyre]

And in follow up, what does America, with no conservatives at all, look like to you liberals? What would be different than it is now?

 

[Mertex]

And in my opinion, anybody who doesn't believe that there are concepts, values, and principles that are superior to other concepts, values, and principles--and most especially those who are unable to articulate concepts, values, and principles without belittling, ridiculing, insulting, or putting somebody down--are leftists by defintiion.

Then there are a lot of "leftists" in this Forum posing as "conservatives".

 

[PaulS1950]

How does that list of federal spending correspond to the number of "welfare" recipients?
The federal government spends money on infrastructure, that it mandates, as well as to support people who are retired, handicapped, and disabled. Find out how much of the states income is for programs like food stamps and subsidized housing.

A wise man once said; "statistics don't lie but liars use statistics."

 

[JWBooth]

And in my opinion, anybody who doesn't believe that there are concepts, values, and principles that are superior to other concepts, values, and principles--and most especially those who are unable to articulate concepts, values, and principles without belittling, ridiculing, insulting, or putting somebody down--are leftists by defintiion.

Matthew 7:12 - All things therefore whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets.

 

[PMZ]

And in follow up, what does America, with no conservatives at all, look like to you liberals? What would be different than it is now?

I think that politically we'd look like the 80s or so. Economically, without the damage of the Bush Administration (and therefore I would assume Gore/Lieberman) we would have continued Clintonomics and paid off the national debt as the CBO predicted in 2001. We also would not have engaged in Bush's holy wars and would be, more or less, at peace with Islam. With the national debt paid off, and Gore as President, we'd be much farther along on mankind's largest project ever, the conversion to sustainable energy.

 

[PMZ]

How does that list of federal spending correspond to the number of "welfare" recipients?
The federal government spends money on infrastructure, that it mandates, as well as to support people who are retired, handicapped, and disabled. Find out how much of the states income is for programs like food stamps and subsidized housing.

A wise man once said; "statistics don't lie but liars use statistics."

I am retired and living on my own resources including what I contributed to SS and Medicare and what my employers contributed as part of my compensation.

 

[beagle9]

Can you elaborate on "Or, as so many predict now, democracy and America as one country may fall."?

BTW, I agree with you that democracy is dynamic.

There's a long thread on the breakup of America so many are predicting these days that just got moved to the Conspiracy Theories forum. Nice speculations.

Historically, we're WAY overdue. Amazing that this nation has so long endured, when other nations so conceived and so dedicated have long since split up, had revolutions, changed radically, etc. It can't last forever. The land mass is way too big, for one thing. Not since the incredible disunity after 9/11/2001 and most people no longer identifying as patriotic Americans.

If it comes to that, and I don't think that it will, what would you personally replace what we have, with?

The reason that I think that it won't come to that is environmental. The people talking about it just haven't adapted to today's world. They will go extinct.

The corner has already been turned and those that haven't kept up will just be less and less influential and relevent.

In fact it is the progression of that process that has them so worked up. I'll bet that the dinosauers were just as worked up as the world changed around them.

Sad thing is, is that the work up was by design against the peoples will, and not by nature or natural occurrences in which the people had no control over. What we have had here is a systematic purposeful change that has occurred, where as their are those whom want this nation to be a Godless one, so they have waged a campaign from early on in order to work to achieve this, then they want it to be an immoral one, where their is no righteous judgment of another, and this no matter how immoral it gets, then they want hardcore socialism, along with the control of the children as much as possible, and this in order to finally transform this nation completely into what they want it to be. I think a huge resistance of these things is coming, and it will prevail I think, but I just wonder how long it will take to wake the nation up finally? Hitler I bet thought the corner had been turned as well, but with the people he had placed in control like Himmler and his ilk, it was inevitable that the huge push back was coming, and it did with a powerful wind that Hitler could not stop in the end. Are we appointing now leaders such as the likes of Himmler today in America ? Couldn't keep up eh ? Did you know how modernized Hitler and Germany were in the 30's ? There are certain universal truths, where as we can either add to them, and even take away from them in order to make things or change things as we know them to a degree, but we can never rid ourselves of these truths, so modernizations is a timeless thing, in which no one holds the Patten upon, and certainly not America, so before you get to arrogant in your thinking just think about this what I say.

 

[Connery]

Well now that is an interesting twist on it isn't it? You are quite right that something always rushes in to fill a vacuum. Those of the radical left are currently insulated from the worst consequences of their intolerance, hatred, racism, political correctness, one-world-government, and socialist/Marxist economic theories.

When no longer insulated from those worst consequences, I wonder how many would be instant converts to modern day American conservatism?

I believe many, the heavy lifting in a democracy is done are those willing to fight on a battle field to preserve the freedoms and privileges before enjoying those freedoms and privileges in a safe, controlled environment such as a university or a courtroom.

And those not privileged to actually do battle for their country can at least do the heavy lifting necessary to make better choices, educate ourselves, learn a trade, and be willing to start at the bottom and work our way to prosperity. The conservative doesn't want anything from others apart from having his unalienable rights recognized and secured and then to be unhindered in living his life, contributing what he can, accomplishing what he can accomplish. And we all can contribute via self sufficiency, personal responsbility and integrity, and lead by personal example.

Those who grow up with a sense of entitlement that what is theirs is theirs and some of everybody else's should also be theirs are the ones who would be the most shell shocked if they were thrown in with people who are all like them. And when they realize that government serves mostly government, is not a reliable mommy for all the people who want to be provided for, and those people start preying on each other for available resources, I think we would see a whole new generation of staunch conservatives born really quickly.

Nice post!!!!

I agree we each have a responsibility as it relates to our own best efforts and abilities. Such an attitude can only make us stronger as individuals and a society.

 

[Bfgrn]

And in follow up, what does America, with no conservatives at all, look like to you liberals? What would be different than it is now?

"The debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party's embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don't matter if they result from tax cuts."
David Stockman - Director of the Office of Management and Budget for U.S. President Ronald Reagan

What would be different now? Let's start with debt. Ronald Reagan switched the federal government from what he critically called, a “tax and spend” policy, to a “borrow and spend” policy, where the government continued its heavy spending, but used borrowed money instead of tax revenue to pay the bills. The results were catastrophic. Although it had taken the United States more than 200 years to accumulate the first $1 trillion of national debt, it took only five years under Reagan to add the second one trillion dollars to the debt. By the end of the 12 years of the Reagan-Bush administrations, the national debt had quadrupled to $4 trillion!

In 1981, the supply-siders commandeered the Reagan Presidency and employed their Voodoo economics, as Bush senior had called it in 1980. He was saying that tax cuts would not increase government revenues. As you can see on the graph above, the Voodoo failed just as Bush predicted, and the supply-siders turned a 32-year winning streak into a debt disaster that continues to this day. For 20 years, under Reagan and the Bushes, the national debt increased compared to GDP every single year.

 

[Bfgrn]

Well now that is an interesting twist on it isn't it? You are quite right that something always rushes in to fill a vacuum. Those of the radical left are currently insulated from the worst consequences of their intolerance, hatred, racism, political correctness, one-world-government, and socialist/Marxist economic theories.

When no longer insulated from those worst consequences, I wonder how many would be instant converts to modern day American conservatism?

I believe many, the heavy lifting in a democracy is done are those willing to fight on a battle field to preserve the freedoms and privileges before enjoying those freedoms and privileges in a safe, controlled environment such as a university or a courtroom.

And those not privileged to actually do battle for their country can at least do the heavy lifting necessary to make better choices, educate ourselves, learn a trade, and be willing to start at the bottom and work our way to prosperity. The conservative doesn't want anything from others apart from having his unalienable rights recognized and secured and then to be unhindered in living his life, contributing what he can, accomplishing what he can accomplish. And we all can contribute via self sufficiency, personal responsbility and integrity, and lead by personal example.

Those who grow up with a sense of entitlement that what is theirs is theirs and some of everybody else's should also be theirs are the ones who would be the most shell shocked if they were thrown in with people who are all like them. And when they realize that government serves mostly government, is not a reliable mommy for all the people who want to be provided for, and those people start preying on each other for available resources, I think we would see a whole new generation of staunch conservatives born really quickly.

I've been around since Harry Truman was in the White House. I have met a lot of people. All kinds of people, from all kinds of backgrounds and demographics.

The only "entitled" people I've ever met have been rich, and/or in a position of power (i.e. police) and the sons and daughters of rich people.

Entitled to possess anything they want
Entitled to do whatever they want
Entitled to say whatever they want
Entitled to the deference and obedience of everyone around them

I've never met a single one of these entitled poor people I keep hearing about.

 

[beagle9]

I believe many, the heavy lifting in a democracy is done are those willing to fight on a battle field to preserve the freedoms and privileges before enjoying those freedoms and privileges in a safe, controlled environment such as a university or a courtroom.

And those not privileged to actually do battle for their country can at least do the heavy lifting necessary to make better choices, educate ourselves, learn a trade, and be willing to start at the bottom and work our way to prosperity. The conservative doesn't want anything from others apart from having his unalienable rights recognized and secured and then to be unhindered in living his life, contributing what he can, accomplishing what he can accomplish. And we all can contribute via self sufficiency, personal responsbility and integrity, and lead by personal example.

Those who grow up with a sense of entitlement that what is theirs is theirs and some of everybody else's should also be theirs are the ones who would be the most shell shocked if they were thrown in with people who are all like them. And when they realize that government serves mostly government, is not a reliable mommy for all the people who want to be provided for, and those people start preying on each other for available resources, I think we would see a whole new generation of staunch conservatives born really quickly.

I've been around since Harry Truman was in the White House. I have met a lot of people. All kinds of people, from all kinds of backgrounds and demographics.

The only "entitled" people I've ever met have been rich, and/or in a position of power (i.e. police) and the sons and daughters of rich people.

Entitled to possess anything they want
Entitled to do whatever they want
Entitled to say whatever they want
Entitled to the deference and obedience of everyone around them

I've never met a single one of these entitled poor people I keep hearing about.

Well then you need to get out more, because they are out there now, and the feds are directly to blame.

 

[Bfgrn]

And those not privileged to actually do battle for their country can at least do the heavy lifting necessary to make better choices, educate ourselves, learn a trade, and be willing to start at the bottom and work our way to prosperity. The conservative doesn't want anything from others apart from having his unalienable rights recognized and secured and then to be unhindered in living his life, contributing what he can, accomplishing what he can accomplish. And we all can contribute via self sufficiency, personal responsbility and integrity, and lead by personal example.

Those who grow up with a sense of entitlement that what is theirs is theirs and some of everybody else's should also be theirs are the ones who would be the most shell shocked if they were thrown in with people who are all like them. And when they realize that government serves mostly government, is not a reliable mommy for all the people who want to be provided for, and those people start preying on each other for available resources, I think we would see a whole new generation of staunch conservatives born really quickly.

I've been around since Harry Truman was in the White House. I have met a lot of people. All kinds of people, from all kinds of backgrounds and demographics.

The only "entitled" people I've ever met have been rich, and/or in a position of power (i.e. police) and the sons and daughters of rich people.

Entitled to possess anything they want
Entitled to do whatever they want
Entitled to say whatever they want
Entitled to the deference and obedience of everyone around them

I've never met a single one of these entitled poor people I keep hearing about.

Well then you need to get out more, because they are out there now, and the feds are directly to blame.

You are more that welcome to defend conservatism, but I have yet to meet anyone that can do it without diminishing others or requiring some group of human beings to evaporate. It is a negative form of thought that is incompatible with a free and open society. It is anti-democratic in nature and builds nothing, it can only tear things down. The last 30 years are a shining example of conservatism.

Conservatism throughout human history has always created a aristocracy, plutocracy, or some form of oppressive society where there is a ruling class or hierarchy. Today's aristocrats and hierarchy are the CEO's, corporations, free marketeers, and the business elite. Conservatives will defend to the death McDonalds right to slowly poison our children, but they never defend our children's health and well being.

I've lived to see the total failure of two revolutions of extreme ideology. The Bolshevik revolution and the Reagan revolution. Unfettered communism and unfettered capitalism creates the same end...failure.

Conservatism has no investment in human capital. It believes everyone is basically evil, so it treats people accordingly and it always creates a fear of 'others', some group of people that must be excluded or ostracized. Liberalism is faith in human beings and a trust that the human spirit can solve all man-made problems.

So you are more than welcome to defend conservatism, but what you profess is not conservatism, it's narcissism.

Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of people, tempered by fear.
William E. Gladstone

 

[beagle9]

And in follow up, what does America, with no conservatives at all, look like to you liberals? What would be different than it is now?

"The debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party's embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don't matter if they result from tax cuts."
David Stockman - Director of the Office of Management and Budget for U.S. President Ronald Reagan

What would be different now? Let's start with debt. Ronald Reagan switched the federal government from what he critically called, a “tax and spend” policy, to a “borrow and spend” policy, where the government continued its heavy spending, but used borrowed money instead of tax revenue to pay the bills. The results were catastrophic. Although it had taken the United States more than 200 years to accumulate the first $1 trillion of national debt, it took only five years under Reagan to add the second one trillion dollars to the debt. By the end of the 12 years of the Reagan-Bush administrations, the national debt had quadrupled to $4 trillion!

In 1981, the supply-siders commandeered the Reagan Presidency and employed their Voodoo economics, as Bush senior had called it in 1980. He was saying that tax cuts would not increase government revenues. As you can see on the graph above, the Voodoo failed just as Bush predicted, and the supply-siders turned a 32-year winning streak into a debt disaster that continues to this day. For 20 years, under Reagan and the Bushes, the national debt increased compared to GDP every single year.

All these graphs or charts don't mean much or matter much anymore right now, because it has all now led or gone to a social agenda that trumps all, and it is also an attempt at a total take over that is taking advantage of it all as well as this place, or rather it's a full on revolution that is taking place now, so far as deficits and budgets go, I think will now take a back seat to these things or will be dealt with somehow within them, but not as a priority as we have seen.

 

[beagle9]

I've been around since Harry Truman was in the White House. I have met a lot of people. All kinds of people, from all kinds of backgrounds and demographics.

The only "entitled" people I've ever met have been rich, and/or in a position of power (i.e. police) and the sons and daughters of rich people.

Entitled to possess anything they want
Entitled to do whatever they want
Entitled to say whatever they want
Entitled to the deference and obedience of everyone around them

I've never met a single one of these entitled poor people I keep hearing about.

Well then you need to get out more, because they are out there now, and the feds are directly to blame.

You are more that welcome to defend conservatism, but I have yet to meet anyone that can do it without diminishing others or requiring some group of human beings to evaporate. It is a negative form of thought that is incompatible with a free and open society. It is anti-democratic in nature and builds nothing, it can only tear things down. The last 30 years are a shining example of conservatism.

Conservatism throughout human history has always created a aristocracy, plutocracy, or some form of oppressive society where there is a ruling class or hierarchy. Today's aristocrats and hierarchy are the CEO's, corporations, free marketeers, and the business elite. Conservatives will defend to the death McDonalds right to slowly poison our children, but they never defend our children's health and well being.

I've lived to see the total failure of two revolutions of extreme ideology. The Bolshevik revolution and the Reagan revolution. Unfettered communism and unfettered capitalism creates the same end...failure.

Conservatism has no investment in human capital. It believes everyone is basically evil, so it treats people accordingly and it always creates a fear of 'others', some group of people that must be excluded or ostracized. Liberalism is faith in human beings and a trust that the human spirit can solve all man-made problems.

So you are more than welcome to defend conservatism, but what you profess is not conservatism, it's narcissism.

Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of people, tempered by fear.
William E. Gladstone

Corporations and bad banksters are the reason we have broken the balance, and your man Clinton with his signing of Nafta has plunged this nation into the hole that it is in right now, so it's not just conservatism that is a problem here and there, but the whole of government and it's mismanaging of our nation over the years that has been a huge problem and let down.