Knowingly supplying arms to Mexican drug cartels through previously-identified straw buyers was not just stupid but also most certainly illegal. I believe that it does fit the definition of "treason", as well.
I won't claim to call it illegal (or treason) only because I don't have the legal background to do so.
That "Operation Fast and Furious" was illegal isn't really debatable. "Straw man" purchases of firearms are illegal in every state in the union. That is why so many gun dealers and ATF agents objected to participating in "Operation Fast and Furious" -- because they knew that their actions were entirely illegal. That is also why approval of the operation HAD to come from "the top level of the DoJ".
BUT, if there were strong legal reasons for F&F to be classified this way (and if there were evidence to support those reasons), I'm pretty sure the Teapublicans in the House would not be fixated on the debt ceiling right now....
"Treason" is a nasty word. It's not one I bandy about casually, and I'm sure the Pubs aren't eager to point fingers that might turn back on themselves.
Knowingly and deliberately sending functional military arms to enemies of the US is treason. Two of these military rifles were used in the murder of a US Border Patrol officer.
The main defense against a charge of treason over "Operation Fast and Furious" is that it was ostensibly done for "the right reasons" -- i.e., to trace the path of illegal firearms importation to Mexico. Had it succeeded, the end might have justified the means; as it stands, however, it's a highly-illegal fiasco.
Taken alone, Fast and Furious by itself was stupid and illegal, but not treasonous.
Taken alone, attempting to infringe on the 2nd Amendment rights of law-abiding Americans without first repealing the 2nd Amendment is also stupid and probably illegal, but not necessarily treasonous.
The problem is that when you combine those two separate actions, and view them as a pattern of behavior by the same entity -- i.e., the US Government -- THEN you have a pattern of treason, of waging war on your own citizens through a campaign of illegally disarming them AND illegally arming their enemies.
When we
combine the government's culpability for the results of "Operation Fast and Furious" with its current efforts to infringe on the Constitutional right of law-abiding citizens to own firearms, "Fast and Furious" no longer appears to be so well-intentioned.
To make the point, let's ask ourselves this question: "If these actions had been performed by any corporation or separate members of a militia in America, wouldn't the officers of that corporation or heads of that militia now be awaiting trial for treason? Wouldn't any employees or militia members who were directly involved also be in jail?"
If an independent corporation (remembering that corporations are legally liable for all actions performed in their name by any of their separate employees) were to send arms to the enemies of America, to those against whom we are waging war -- and were to subsequently attempt to disarm American citizens who have the need and the legal right to defend themselves against those very same enemies -- would we not be seeking to prosecute that corporation for treason?
If an independent militia were to engage in those same actions, would we not round up its members and prosecute them for treason?
And make no mistake, those criminal cartels have invaded American soil. Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and California have all reported the widespread encroachment of the criminal drug cartels into their states.
Arizona has posted signs warning travelers on their highways that the southern part of their state is not safe.
Texans report that Los Zetas are committing mass murders in their state, burying headless corpses in mass graves.
I don't doubt you: I've seen the news reports, too.
The reason the southern border area is such a mess right now is, quite simply, that America is a nation of coke-heads.
Here, Wonk, is where you reveal yourself to be a true Washington insider -- a "wonk" who rubs shoulders with the movers and shakers in DC.
No, Wonk, America is not a nation of coke-heads. We may be a nation of drunkards and pot-heads -- that's possible, though offensive to contemplate. But we are most certainly NOT a nation of coke-heads.
The 99% haven't been able to afford cocaine for more than a decade. Only the rich and powerful of our nation -- the 1% in Washington DC -- can afford to be "coke-heads".
And frankly, I seriously doubt that anyone reading this is going to be pleased to learn that the drug habits of our nation's leaders are fueling the war with Mexican drug cartels. That's not where we like to think our tax dollars are going.
Arming every citizen near the border will not solve that particular problem.
The only things that WILL solve the problem are (1) closing and sealing the land border, as Panama did with Colombia, or (2) legalizing cocaine.
I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with either of those, by the way.
Wonk, you've been breathing that rarified atmosphere too long. You're out of touch.
Here are some quotes from a different forum where I started a similar thread. These are posts written by folks who live in Texas and other border states:
Yep our own government was caught supplying guns to the cartels. Get the guns out of the hands of us Texans and there will be one boarder wide open. Especially since our government has gone so far as to instruct boarder agents to back up from the boarder since it is so dangerous. This may be a bit tin hat, but say war starts on the boarder. Would that be a good reason to implement martial law? In that situation would that many complain?
If the fed let the Texans loose there wouldn't be a crime problem on the border.
We have been invaded for years - Now people notice ?
Yes it is true. 3/2/12 A raid was made at a site near the Arizona Mexico boarder where there was a cache of weapons and ammunition found. The amount was said to be enough to supply a small army including rocket launchers.
This was the second cache found in 2012 The link I had to this, which had photos of the cache of weapons is a dead link now. If I can find a working link I will be sure to post it.
I truly believe we could see a war with Mexico as they believe this land was stolen from them. Never mind the fact that it was bought and paid for a long time ago. I don't however believe it would be your average, hard working Mexican who is just trying to feed their families.
I can see the gangs like MS13 and all the drug gangs getting into the fight. Pretty sad we already have to avoid areas due to Mexico's drug violence.
Just wonder how many shots going across the boarder counts as a war?
I've been at war with Mexico for a long time, so has most of Arizona.
Is this true? Do you know any specific details? What can you tell us is happening in Texas and surrounding areas?
Ohhhh yeah. Los Zetas are firmly planted all the way up in the Dallas/Ft. Worth metroplex.
The Zetas are considered the worst drug cartel operating in Mexico and the US. They make MS13 look like kindergarteners. Highly organized and BRUTAL.
When you see on the news about a mass grave found on some ranch in Mexico or Texas with all the heads cut off? Los Zetas.
And now they're operating in the US. They arrested a couple of guys in Dallas.
Actually, the Zetas were at one time a part of the Mexican military. When Mexico decided to bring their military into the drug war, we sent some special forces soldiers to go down there and give them all kinds of training in things that we learned in Columbia hunting down Pablo Escobar. Eventually, they decided they could make more money on the other side and became a drug cartel themselves. So they became a drug cartel with a military style command and control structure with connections into the corrupt Mexican army through which they could (and did) obtain military grade weapons. And, yes...they are extremely brutal.
The area between interstate 8 and the Mexico border has been posted as off limits to all citizens due to violence from drug cartels and illegal immigrants. And Pres Bammy has stopped construction of the border fence.
When we try to defend the border our own government comes after us. We shoot someone smuggling drugs or guns or people into the state from Mexico no matter what else they did we are the ones in the wrong. We try to defend our own border and land we are arrested. No this will not be solved until we are allowed to uphold the laws already on the books. And that goes for Texas and Arizona.
If the feds would stay the hell out of it this would be fixed real quick.
I lived about ten miles north of the border for several years. They are NOT "just over the border". They are HERE. I have had several incidents on my own property with the Narcos including one with a Ak and some with ARs OR a real M-4. I have heard full auto on many nights. We have things going on down here that you never hear on the nightly news. I had to move.
Most Americans of Hispanic descent are good hard working people. The last county I lived in was over 90 percent. They have lived on this land for generations just like me. They don't want this either. Some also have left the area like me due to the violence and lack of jobs for their kids. Most just want to be left alone. The Narcos and Coyotes won't let them.
Land owners are sitting on their porches at night with guns just to try to protect what is theirs. And this is not new folks. This has been going on for years.
It is the silent war here on our own soil and the fed, with their wonderful leader will not do anything about it, even to the point of restricting US citizens from protecting their property and families. As well as instructing border patrol agents to stay out of the area.
Much of what happens here no one ever knows about because the MSM will not report on it, and many here have ideas why. Very few people know about the two raids on weapons catches along the Arizona Mexico border that had local sheriff offices, BATF, DEA and other groups involved.
These were not over the counter weapons. M-16s, M-4s, AKs, RPGs, claymores and hand gernades and large amounts of ammunition much of which was loaded in mags, were all found in both raides. This along with cell phones, military gear, and vehicles were included.
This was not reported by MSM and any reports that did get out were quickly hushed.
Along the border between Mexico and Arizona, and Texas there is gun fire every night. Fishermen have been shot on the Rio Grande river.
So for those who do not think there is a war going on, or think if anything were to happen it would be over in a few hours, come on down. Would be happy to take you down on the border so you can get a first hand education which our illustrious government ignores.
I'm sure this is more than any of us Northerners ever suspected was going on within our borders. It certainly goes a long way towards explaining the unreasonably high murder rates in the South, though, doesn't it?
The bottom line is that Americans near the border ARE heavily armed. They are not being allowed to use their arms. Our government has made the decision to run up the white flag along the border, to allow drugs and criminals into our country.
And why? When law-abiding citizens are armed and ready to form active militia to combat the problem, why does our government intervene in favor of the drug cartels and illegal traffic across the border? Why are these citizens being prevented from defending their land and our nation?
I think maybe you've given us an answer:
I don't doubt you: I've seen the news reports, too.
The reason the southern border area is such a mess right now is, quite simply, that America is a nation governed by a bunch of coke-heads who need to keep the supply of their drug flowing.
(Bold italics mine, added for clarity)
-- Paravani
