What the Palestinian Authority Thinks Concerning a Palestinians State in the WB

[Hossfly]

I sure wish Tinnie could tell us all the names of the kings of this magical country of Palestine along with other facts, such as their laws and their monetary system. By the way, I guess Tinnie is calling Winston Churchill and the British officials who were stationed in the area liars when they said that the Arabs came in droves from their impoverished countries when the Jews had jobs for them. It is the same thing we see happening today. I guess Tinnie closes his eyes to all the Muslims leaving their poor countries to go to civilized countries where they can have a better life. Meanwhile, I wonder how many of Tinnie's relatives and friends will heed the call of that Egyptian official who said that Gazans should go home to Egypt. Maybe if there wasn't trouble in Egypt, busloads of them would go back to the country of their roots. I wonder if Tinnie can pull up some document which will show us that this magical country of Palestine was held in trust for Tinnie's people.

I sure wish Tinnie could tell us all the names of the kings of this magical country of Palestine along with other facts, such as their laws and their monetary system.

Irrelevant. An independent state is the realization of the right to self determination, not a prerequisite.

Is that a fact? I can post information about any country in the world with a lineage of presidents, emperors, kings,prime ministers, secretaries of state, poet laureates, surgeons general, and court jesters. Save me the trouble and post your list of Palestinian notables. Please.

P.S., Tinmore, you never did get back to me with your take on Haniyeh's speech about armed uprising against Israel. Plus that business about the Nazi flag. Ashamed to admit it or is it another pack of Zionist lies?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Irrelevant. An independent state is the realization of the right to self determination, not a prerequisite.

Is that a fact? I can post information about any country in the world with a lineage of presidents, emperors, kings,prime ministers, secretaries of state, poet laureates, surgeons general, and court jesters. Save me the trouble and post your list of Palestinian notables. Please.

P.S., Tinmore, you never did get back to me with your take on Haniyeh's speech about armed uprising against Israel. Plus that business about the Nazi flag. Ashamed to admit it or is it another pack of Zionist lies?

I did. Sorry you missed it.

 

[Hossfly]

Is that a fact? I can post information about any country in the world with a lineage of presidents, emperors, kings,prime ministers, secretaries of state, poet laureates, surgeons general, and court jesters. Save me the trouble and post your list of Palestinian notables. Please.

P.S., Tinmore, you never did get back to me with your take on Haniyeh's speech about armed uprising against Israel. Plus that business about the Nazi flag. Ashamed to admit it or is it another pack of Zionist lies?

I did. Sorry you missed it.

Tinmore, I just checked every post in this thread and nowhere did you address in any manner the speech by Haniyeh or the flying of the Nazi flag. Not by any means . Now why don't you be a good Junge and stopt crying, whining and blubbering and stand up like a man and answer the questions.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P.S., Tinmore, you never did get back to me with your take on Haniyeh's speech about armed uprising against Israel. Plus that business about the Nazi flag. Ashamed to admit it or is it another pack of Zionist lies?

I did. Sorry you missed it.

Tinmore, I just checked every post in this thread and nowhere did you address in any manner the speech by Haniyeh

The Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.

or the flying of the Nazi flag. Not by any means .

That is a prodect of Israel's aggression.

Now why don't you be a good Junge and stopt crying, whining and blubbering and stand up like a man and answer the questions.

 

[toastman]

I did. Sorry you missed it.

Tinmore, I just checked every post in this thread and nowhere did you address in any manner the speech by Haniyeh

The Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.
Give me two examples of Palestinians defending themselves in the last 10 years

or the flying of the Nazi flag. Not by any means .

That is a prodect of Israel's aggression.

Typical 'blame Israel for everything' BS. In 65 years , where has blaming Israel gotten the Palestinians ?

Now why don't you be a good Junge and stopt crying, whining and blubbering and stand up like a man and answer the questions.

Product of Israeli aggression?? Typical blame Israel for everything BS

As far as Haniyes comments, you say it is the Palestinians defending themselves (I almost spat out my coffee when I read that lol)

So, you agree with his comments ?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, you have part of it correct.

That is correct. Palestinian land was never up for grabs.

(COMMENT)

Agreed.

Neither the LoN, the mandate, nor the UN ever annexed that land. It was merely held in trust. None of them had the authority to transfer any of that land to Israel and none of them did.

(COMMENT)

Partly correct. True - annexation (formal act whereby a state proclaims its sovereignty over territory) was not part of the Treaty of Sevres. But the Treaty did hand the Allied Powers territorial control (all rights and title which she could claim on any ground over or concerning any territories outside Europe) to the Allied Powers pursuant to Articles 97 and 132 of the Treaty.

ARTICLE 132.

Outside her frontiers as fixed by the present Treaty Turkey hereby renounces in favour of the Principal Allied Powers all rights and title which she could claim on any ground over or concerning any territories outside Europe which are not otherwise disposed of by the present Treaty.

Turkey undertakes to recognise and conform to the measures which may be taken now or in the future by the Principal Allied Powers, in agreement where necessary with third Powers, in order to carry the above stipulation into effect.

SOURCE: SECTION XIII. GENERAL PROVISIONS.

This, of course, included the rights and title which she could claim on any ground over or concerning any territories covered in Section VII, over Syria, Mesopotamia, and Palestine, to be provisionally recognised as independent States subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone.

It is NOT correct to say that the Allied Powers "none of them had the authority to transfer any of that land to Israel." The Treaty included a clause for the establishment in Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, of a national home for the Jewish people (not further specified). The determination of which independent states were created and when they were able to stand alone, was left to the discretion of the Allied Powers.

And, contrary to popular opinion, Israel did not win any land in the 1948 war.

(COMMENT)

Again, only partly true. The UN offered the opportunity for the Jewish People to establish an independent state under the authority of UN General Assembly Resolution 181(II); which the Jewish Agency accepted. Within hours of the Jewish Agency exercising their right of self-determination, in accordance with the UN offer, and the intent of the treaty, the newly formed State of Israel had to defend itself against the hostile external influences (five Arab Armies); which it did so successfully. At the very least, the State of Israel won its independence under the terms of the agreement and secured the allotted territory. Israel actually, as a result of military successes against Arab Aggressors, acquired additional territorial control.

The phrase "win any land in the 1948 war" is paradoxical. Israel successfully defended its independence. The phrase is more applicable to the Arab League aggressors in the reverse context: The "Arab League intervention resulted in a lost of Arab controlled territory."

Foreigners declared Israel on Palestinian land and to this date Israel has never legally acquired any land.

(COMMENT)

Palestine was never acquired by the Arab Palestinians until 1988.

It is not as confusing as you try to make it.

(COMMENT)

It is not. I contend that it is you that attempt to make it confusing. If anything, the reverse is true: The enemy population (Arabs) never declared properly exercised self-determination on Mandate Territory controlled by treaty.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[pbel]

He did not say the Palestinians don't or didn't have land rights

I'm sure Rocco can speak for himself, however the implication of Sovereignty as he stated is that the land was up for grabs.

Why don't you give us a break, Phillip? You have nothing to say about the killing of innocent people by the Muslims because you are just using the Arabs as pawns in your hatred against the Jews. I think most of the viewers are smart enough to figure you out. I can see how some posters can't stand to see Rocco come up with the facts about Israel and the Palestinians. He is the most knowledgeable poster on this particular forum.

When you have nothing to add after a few pops of white lightening from dem hills you start of thinking about your hero from W. Virgingi good 'ol KKK member Sen. Byrd...How many times did ya y'all vote for him?

 

[pbel]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, you have part of it correct.

That is correct. Palestinian land was never up for grabs.

(COMMENT)

Agreed.

Neither the LoN, the mandate, nor the UN ever annexed that land. It was merely held in trust. None of them had the authority to transfer any of that land to Israel and none of them did.

(COMMENT)

Partly correct. True - annexation (formal act whereby a state proclaims its sovereignty over territory) was not part of the Treaty of Sevres. But the Treaty did hand the Allied Powers territorial control (all rights and title which she could claim on any ground over or concerning any territories outside Europe) to the Allied Powers pursuant to Articles 97 and 132 of the Treaty.



This, of course, included the rights and title which she could claim on any ground over or concerning any territories covered in Section VII, over Syria, Mesopotamia, and Palestine, to be provisionally recognised as independent States subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone.

It is NOT correct to say that the Allied Powers "none of them had the authority to transfer any of that land to Israel." The Treaty included a clause for the establishment in Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, of a national home for the Jewish people (not further specified). The determination of which independent states were created and when they were able to stand alone, was left to the discretion of the Allied Powers.


(COMMENT)

Again, only partly true. The UN offered the opportunity for the Jewish People to establish an independent state under the authority of UN General Assembly Resolution 181(II); which the Jewish Agency accepted. Within hours of the Jewish Agency exercising their right of self-determination, in accordance with the UN offer, and the intent of the treaty, the newly formed State of Israel had to defend itself against the hostile external influences (five Arab Armies); which it did so successfully. At the very least, the State of Israel won its independence under the terms of the agreement and secured the allotted territory. Israel actually, as a result of military successes against Arab Aggressors, acquired additional territorial control.

The phrase "win any land in the 1948 war" is paradoxical. Israel successfully defended its independence. The phrase is more applicable to the Arab League aggressors in the reverse context: The "Arab League intervention resulted in a lost of Arab controlled territory."

Foreigners declared Israel on Palestinian land and to this date Israel has never legally acquired any land.

(COMMENT)

Palestine was never acquired by the Arab Palestinians until 1988.

It is not as confusing as you try to make it.

(COMMENT)

It is not. I contend that it is you that attempt to make it confusing. If anything, the reverse is true: The enemy population (Arabs) never declared properly exercised self-determination on Mandate Territory controlled by treaty.

Most Respectfully,
R

Tell us why the Palestinians had to declare anything since they lived there happily for centuries under various Islamic rulers?

 

[RoccoR]

pbel; et al,

A fair question.

Tell us why the Palestinians had to declare anything since they lived there happily for centuries under various Islamic rulers?

(COMMENT)

For more than a millennium, the indigenous populations had lived under a sovereign power, not their own. In this case, the Ottomans defeated The Mamluk Sultanate in 1517, The Mamluks having ruled the territory since 1250. After the collapse of the Mamluk Sultanate, the Ottomans maintained rule over the greater Levant for the next four hundred years -- until late 1918.

The Muslim Ruler - the Sultan -, of the Ottoman Empire --- was the protectors of both the Islamic faith and the Jewish citizenry, in the region. However, that ended with the fall of the Empire to the Allied Powers and the Treaty of Sevres. YOU ARE RIGHT! The Palestinians did not have to declare anything! They could have remained under Mandate to the UN Palestine Commission and continued on peacefully. They chose not to --- and opted for war.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[pbel]

pbel; et al,

A fair question.

Tell us why the Palestinians had to declare anything since they lived there happily for centuries under various Islamic rulers?

(COMMENT)

For more than a millennium, the indigenous populations had lived under a sovereign power, not their own. In this case, the Ottomans defeated The Mamluk Sultanate in 1517, The Mamluks having ruled the territory since 1250. After the collapse of the Mamluk Sultanate, the Ottomans maintained rule over the greater Levant for the next four hundred years -- until late 1918.

The Muslim Ruler - the Sultan -, of the Ottoman Empire --- was the protectors of both the Islamic faith and the Jewish citizenry, in the region. However, that ended with the fall of the Empire to the Allied Powers and the Treaty of Sevres. YOU ARE RIGHT! The Palestinians did not have to declare anything! They could have remained under Mandate to the UN Palestine Commission and continued on peacefully. They chose not to --- and opted for war.

Most Respectfully,
R

What do you mean they opted for war, defending themselves? The treaty of Severs did not give Israel the lands.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I sure wish Tinnie could tell us all the names of the kings of this magical country of Palestine along with other facts, such as their laws and their monetary system. By the way, I guess Tinnie is calling Winston Churchill and the British officials who were stationed in the area liars when they said that the Arabs came in droves from their impoverished countries when the Jews had jobs for them. It is the same thing we see happening today. I guess Tinnie closes his eyes to all the Muslims leaving their poor countries to go to civilized countries where they can have a better life. Meanwhile, I wonder how many of Tinnie's relatives and friends will heed the call of that Egyptian official who said that Gazans should go home to Egypt. Maybe if there wasn't trouble in Egypt, busloads of them would go back to the country of their roots. I wonder if Tinnie can pull up some document which will show us that this magical country of Palestine was held in trust for Tinnie's people.

I sure wish Tinnie could tell us all the names of the kings of this magical country of Palestine along with other facts, such as their laws and their monetary system.

Irrelevant. An independent state is the realization of the right to self determination, not a prerequisite.

Is that a fact? I can post information about any country in the world with a lineage of presidents, emperors, kings,prime ministers, secretaries of state, poet laureates, surgeons general, and court jesters. Save me the trouble and post your list of Palestinian notables. Please.

It is.

Criteria for the right to self-determination

A people can be said to have realised its right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state; (2) freely associated with another state or (3) integrated with another state after freely having expressed their will to do so . The definition of realisation of self-determination was confirmed in the Declaration of Friendly Relations .

It is clearly illegal under international law to deprive a people of their right to self-determination by using forcible actions including use of violence.

The right to self-determination - IHL

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

And don't forget to read it all.

Irrelevant. An independent state is the realization of the right to self determination, not a prerequisite.

Is that a fact? I can post information about any country in the world with a lineage of presidents, emperors, kings,prime ministers, secretaries of state, poet laureates, surgeons general, and court jesters. Save me the trouble and post your list of Palestinian notables. Please.

It is.

Criteria for the right to self-determination

A people can be said to have realised its right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state; (2) freely associated with another state or (3) integrated with another state after freely having expressed their will to do so . The definition of realisation of self-determination was confirmed in the Declaration of Friendly Relations .

It is clearly illegal under international law to deprive a people of their right to self-determination by using forcible actions including use of violence.

The right to self-determination - IHL

(READING FURTHER)

On the same page:

After the 1948 war, Israel was established on a more extensive territory than recommended in the partition plan. By entering into the Armistice Agreement with Egypt in 1949, Israel, demonstrated a sufficient level of stable and effective government of the territory to be recognised as a state by other states and the UN. Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine. A state for the Palestinians living in the Mandate of Palestine was never created and this unrealised goal still constitutes one of the core issues of the conflict.

As regards the Arab Higher Committee, the following telegraphic response was received by the Secretary-General on 19 January 1948:

“ARAB HIGHER COMMITTEE IS DETERMINED PERSIST IN REJECTION PARTITION AND IN REFUSAL RECOGNIZE UNO RESOLUTION THIS RESPECT AND ANYTHING DERIVING THEREFROM. FOR THESE REASONS IT IS UNABLE ACCEPT INVITATION”​

SOURCE: A/AC.21/7 29 January 1948

SOURCE: The right to self-determination - IHL

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[pbel]

P F Tinmore, et al,

And don't forget to read it all.

Is that a fact? I can post information about any country in the world with a lineage of presidents, emperors, kings,prime ministers, secretaries of state, poet laureates, surgeons general, and court jesters. Save me the trouble and post your list of Palestinian notables. Please.

It is.

(READING FURTHER)

On the same page:

After the 1948 war, Israel was established on a more extensive territory than recommended in the partition plan. By entering into the Armistice Agreement with Egypt in 1949, Israel, demonstrated a sufficient level of stable and effective government of the territory to be recognised as a state by other states and the UN. Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine. A state for the Palestinians living in the Mandate of Palestine was never created and this unrealised goal still constitutes one of the core issues of the conflict.

As regards the Arab Higher Committee, the following telegraphic response was received by the Secretary-General on 19 January 1948:

“ARAB HIGHER COMMITTEE IS DETERMINED PERSIST IN REJECTION PARTITION AND IN REFUSAL RECOGNIZE UNO RESOLUTION THIS RESPECT AND ANYTHING DERIVING THEREFROM. FOR THESE REASONS IT IS UNABLE ACCEPT INVITATION”​

SOURCE: A/AC.21/7 29 January 1948

SOURCE: The right to self-determination - IHL

Most Respectfully,
R

All in the name of Western Imperialism and a puppet UN on third world powers, ironically the Israelis now call the powers which created her via the UN useless and nonsensical.

Sorry Rocco it all sounds like doubletalk.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

And don't forget to read it all.

Is that a fact? I can post information about any country in the world with a lineage of presidents, emperors, kings,prime ministers, secretaries of state, poet laureates, surgeons general, and court jesters. Save me the trouble and post your list of Palestinian notables. Please.

It is.

(READING FURTHER)

On the same page:

After the 1948 war, Israel was established on a more extensive territory than recommended in the partition plan. By entering into the Armistice Agreement with Egypt in 1949, Israel, demonstrated a sufficient level of stable and effective government of the territory to be recognised as a state by other states and the UN. Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine. A state for the Palestinians living in the Mandate of Palestine was never created and this unrealised goal still constitutes one of the core issues of the conflict.

As regards the Arab Higher Committee, the following telegraphic response was received by the Secretary-General on 19 January 1948:

“ARAB HIGHER COMMITTEE IS DETERMINED PERSIST IN REJECTION PARTITION AND IN REFUSAL RECOGNIZE UNO RESOLUTION THIS RESPECT AND ANYTHING DERIVING THEREFROM. FOR THESE REASONS IT IS UNABLE ACCEPT INVITATION”​

SOURCE: A/AC.21/7 29 January 1948

SOURCE: The right to self-determination - IHL

Most Respectfully,
R

Indeed, that is from the opinion section.

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

And don't forget to read it all.

It is.

(READING FURTHER)

On the same page:

After the 1948 war, Israel was established on a more extensive territory than recommended in the partition plan. By entering into the Armistice Agreement with Egypt in 1949, Israel, demonstrated a sufficient level of stable and effective government of the territory to be recognised as a state by other states and the UN. Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine. A state for the Palestinians living in the Mandate of Palestine was never created and this unrealised goal still constitutes one of the core issues of the conflict.



SOURCE: The right to self-determination - IHL

Most Respectfully,
R

All in the name of Western Imperialism and a puppet UN on third world powers, ironically the Israelis now call the powers which created her via the UN useless and nonsensical.

Sorry Rocco it all sounds like doubletalk.

But that's not what it said in the link he quoted....

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

And don't forget to read it all.

It is.

(READING FURTHER)

On the same page:

After the 1948 war, Israel was established on a more extensive territory than recommended in the partition plan. By entering into the Armistice Agreement with Egypt in 1949, Israel, demonstrated a sufficient level of stable and effective government of the territory to be recognised as a state by other states and the UN. Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine. A state for the Palestinians living in the Mandate of Palestine was never created and this unrealised goal still constitutes one of the core issues of the conflict.



SOURCE: The right to self-determination - IHL

Most Respectfully,
R

Indeed, that is from the opinion section.

you just agreed with what Rocco said, which contradicts your past thought on this issue . Weird , eh?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

And don't forget to read it all.


(READING FURTHER)

On the same page:



Most Respectfully,
R

Indeed, that is from the opinion section.

you just agreed with what Rocco said, which contradicts your past thought on this issue . Weird , eh?

Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine.

From the opinion section.

Is there any documentation to prove that point?

 

[toastman]

Indeed, that is from the opinion section.

you just agreed with what Rocco said, which contradicts your past thought on this issue . Weird , eh?

Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine.

From the opinion section.

Is there any documentation to prove that point?

LOL. That is enough documentation as you need. You used the same source and link to prove your point !


You're unbelievable, you just can't stand it when you're wrong...


Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine.


Again


Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine.

One more time



Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine.

 

[P F Tinmore]

you just agreed with what Rocco said, which contradicts your past thought on this issue . Weird , eh?

Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine.

From the opinion section.

Is there any documentation to prove that point?

LOL. That is enough documentation as you need. You used the same source and link to prove your point !


You're unbelievable, you just can't stand it when you're wrong...


Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine.


Again


Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine.

One more time



Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine.

The comments I posted can be sourced to documents.

Where are the documents to back up your post?

 

[RoccoR]

pbel, et al,

Only partly correct.

What do you mean they opted for war, defending themselves? The treaty of Severs did not give Israel the lands.

(COMMENT)

They did opt for war.

They were not defending themselves; but, acting in defiance of the UN Resolution. Their language was very specific. They may frame it as "self defense" but it was in opposition to the decisions made by the trusteeship.

No one said that the Treaty of Sevres gave Israel land. What was said is that the LoN (the UN being the successor) and the Allied Powers were given trusteeship via Mandate by means of the Treaty. The indigenous population was given no authority or independence. Relative to the issue of self-determination, our friend P F Tinmore points the way:

The right to self-determination in Palestine

The right to self-determination of both peoples living in Palestine, namely the Palestinians and the Jews, was confirmed by the UN General Assembly in Resolution 181 of 29 November 1947, which included the plan to divide the British Mandate of Palestine into one Jewish and one Palestinian state. The resolution was not legally binding, but merely recommended what the GA considered to be a legitimate mode of self-determination for Palestine. Nevertheless, it did express that a majority of states were of the opinion that one Jewish and one Palestinian state should be created in the area.

After the 1948 war, Israel was established on a more extensive territory than recommended in the partition plan. By entering into the Armistice Agreement with Egypt in 1949, Israel, demonstrated a sufficient level of stable and effective government of the territory to be recognised as a state by other states and the UN. Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine. A state for the Palestinians living in the Mandate of Palestine was never created and this unrealised goal still constitutes one of the core issues of the conflict.

SOURCE: IHL in the occupied Palestinian territory » The right to self-determination

Most Respectfully,
R