What should U.S. policy be towards the Ukraine conflict?

[Markle]

So we declare Russian victory and award them all captured territory while stripping Ukraines ability to fight back.

Of what strategic importance is Ukraine to the United States?

What is our exit strategy today?

How much more should we send to Ukraine? What's the limit here even you say enough is enough or do we just go forever?

 

[rightwinger]

Of what strategic importance is Ukraine to the United States?

What is our exit strategy today?

How much more should we send to Ukraine? What's the limit here even you say enough is enough or do we just go forever?

Ukraine is a future NATO partner

You can thank Putin for that

 

[Donald H]

Nobody here is “advocating the ongoing slaughter of the Ukrainian people.” That is unworthy defeatist pro-Putin propaganda. Most everybody wants this terrible war to end. But how? With what result?

America won't allow the war to end Tom.

I feared the situation was drifting toward disaster since the “Maidan Revolution” — which was enthusiastically welcomed in the West and hated by “Great Russian nationalists” and Russian oligarchs who feared they were losing their power over Ukraine. As popular as it was in Kiev and most — but not all — of the country, it doomed the possibility that Ukraine could be a successful binational neutral state — something rightwingers here who hate “multiculturalism” normally say is unworkable in the U.S. or anywhere.

Putin’s response to the Maidan Revolution, especially his invasion of 2022, made it clear to all Ukrainian nationalists, including many or most Russian native speakers (Zelensky is one such!) that Russia’s aggression had to be defeated once and for all. Putin in 2022 decided to destroy Ukraine as an independent nation with a democratic pro-Western government.

That was then. The U.S. and Europe has not been wrong in helping the Ukrainian gov’t resist Putin’s bloody invasion. A decisive victory of one side or the other, however, is not inevitable. If the war remains deadlocked for long near the present front lines, then negotiations will become possible, the fighting could die down, missile attacks can slow, and a temporary cease fire be implemented.

Ukrainian optimism about its ability to regain all lands taken by Russia in 2022, let alone Crimea, is faltering. So is confidence in the West. Russia almost saw Putin overthrown, and there is no certainty Russia will even remain a unified state, let alone conquer much more of Ukraine.

All talk about sending U.S. or NATO troops into battle should be opposed, as should talk about stopping all assistance to Ukraine. But as opportunities arise, Ukraine, NATO & Russia will probably all need to agree to trade “land for peace.”

The US started the war Tom and at least half the world's countries are aware and believing that. The facts just can't be ignored.

You can choose to try to ignore.

 

[Donald H]

If that is what they choose for their country, so be it. It looks like they will take a heck of a lot of Russians with them if the Russian keep trying to take over the country. Russia should just go home, the way they did, when they wanted to take over Afghanistan.

Off topic but.............. America went home defeated after trying to save the little girls, I've heard.

 

[Concerned American]

America won't allow the war to end Tom.

The US started the war Tom and at least half the world's countries are aware and believing that. The facts just can't be ignored.

You can choose to try to ignore.

Linkie, duck.

 

[gipper]

This is not only not “clear” but outright wrong. The U.S. did not want Putin to invade, and the U.S. afterwards did not even expect the Ukrainians to succeed in holding onto Kiev.

The Ukrainians proved competent and determined to fight, stabilized their control in Kiev, and then took back Kharkiv, the Russians too reorganized their occupation forces in the South and Donbass. Now that Putin’s 3-day police action has become a bloody regular war of aggression, the U.S. wants the Ukrainians to win … but is aware that it may not be able to retake all its territory.

The USG put Putin in a position where he had to invade, which is exactly what they wanted. When your government is controlled by the MIC, your politicians gladly do all they can to enrich the MIC.

 

[rightwinger]

The USG put Putin in a position where he had to invade, which is exactly what they wanted. When your government is controlled by the MIC, your politicians gladly do all they can to enrich the MIC.

Putin underestimated the resolve of the Ukrainians and the willingness of the Western Allies to support them

His two week invasion turned into a quagmire

 

[gipper]

Putin underestimated the resolve of the Ukrainians and the willingness of the Western Allies to support them

His two week invasion turned into a quagmire

Lol. The war is over. Ukraine lost. You’ll never know it because you consume propaganda from state run media.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

America won't allow the war to end Tom.
The US started the war Tom and at least half the world's countries are aware and believing that. The facts just can't be ignored.
You can choose to try to ignore.

“America’s” wars always end. Every one of them. But neither “America” nor the U.S. nor NATO is invading or occupying Ukraine … or Russia.

Russia’s long-term strongman dictator started this war — because he and closely allied Ukrainian local oligarchs, political vassals, as well as traditional “Great Russian nationalism” could not tolerate the idea that the people of Ukraine preferred economic & political alignment with democratic and more developed Western Europe. This is the simplest but also the deepest explanation for what happened.

Of course there was lots of U.S. and European money flowing into “democracy building NGOs” in Ukraine before Maidan. But all the way back in 2004-5 there had already been a genuine “Orange Revolution” that stopped a ballot steal by Russian political forces in Ukraine, and after the popular mobilization on the streets a fair rerun election was allowed and pro-Western parties won the Presidency. This history is deeper than most understand.

The “NATO” and “security question” — however poorly handled in the past by the West — doesn’t change the fact that even with Russia’s huge natural resources and abundant oil, an alliance with Putin and his corrupt cronies seemed to offer little other than poverty and oppression to the mass of politically awakened Ukrainians. Most people, at least during the Orange Revolution, saw the Russians and pro-Russian parties as dangerous and wanted out from under their boot heel, but they certainly didn’t want war. Few imagined Russia would invade then. But Putin got more imperial and out of touch with reality over his decades in power, and built up his army and decided to use in 2022.

Most “third world” countries have witnessed abusive and unnecessary U.S. invasions & occupations & sanctions in the Middle East and elsewhere in recent decades. They know the U.S. usually leaves a mess where it intervenes militarily abroad, with little regard for who suffers collateral damage. It is hardly surprising that few are enthusiastic about the Ukrainians standing up to Russia with American military assistance, raising the price of grain and oil in world markets. This is not seen as their fight. Putin’s invasion has indeed become very much a Western “proxy war” against increasingly reactionary Russia, but it is more than that from the point of view of Ukrainian nationalism. For them it is an existential struggle for survival.

Domestic opponents of U.S. foreign adventures should remember this is not a war where our troops are occupiers as in Vietnam and Iraq, nor is it like the old U.S.-initiated “proxy war” in Afghanistan against the Soviets or in Libya against Qaddafi. There is a genuine Ukrainian national liberation aspect of the struggle here. Few in “the Global South” are completely oblivious to this fact, and fewer still endorse Russia’s actions.

But U.S. rightwing radicals (and many of the few remaining leftist radicals too) are by now so suspicious of their own government that they treat this war as if it were like every other case of U.S. imperialism invading and occupying third world countries. It is not.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Lol. The war is over. Ukraine lost. You’ll never know it because you consume propaganda from state run media.

You rejoice at every “victory” of Russian reaction and Putin’s army? This war — unfortunately — is by no means over.

 

[gipper]

You rejoice at every “victory” of Russian reaction and Putin’s army? This war — unfortunately — is by no means over.

You’re confused. There is no rejoicing war particularly one purposely instigated and easily avoided.

Ukraine has lost the war. There likely are few Ukrainian men left to fight. They’ve all been sacrificed for the financial benefit of the MIC and US uniparty.

 

[alang1216]

Do you mean 20 years, as in Vietnam and Afghanistan?

Or, until we run out of money?

I can't imagine either country will last 20 years but if they do, I'll still support Ukraine so long as there are no American boots on the ground. Ukraine aid is a tiny part of the US budget so we'll never 'run out of money'. Since an expansionist Russia is a big threat to peace, spending our defense dollars there is a great bargain for us.

 

[rightwinger]

Lol. The war is over. Ukraine lost. You’ll never know it because you consume propaganda from state run media.

It is a conflict Russia can’t maintain either militarily or economically

Their military is on the verge of revolt

 

[rightwinger]

I can't imagine either country will last 20 years but if they do, I'll still support Ukraine so long as there are no American boots on the ground. Ukraine aid is a tiny part of the US budget so we'll never 'run out of money'. Since an expansionist Russia is a big threat to peace, spending our defense dollars there is a great bargain for us.

I am amazed at Conservatives who are outraged over the money we spend to support Ukraine while they were perfectly fine with spending trillions in Afghanistan and Iraq

 

[gipper]

I am amazed at Conservatives who are outraged over the money we spend to support Ukraine while they were perfectly fine with spending trillions in Afghanistan and Iraq

You should be outraged over the mass murder and destruction your nation is responsible for these past few decades, but you’re not.

 

[gipper]

I am amazed at Conservatives who are outraged over the money we spend to support Ukraine while they were perfectly fine with spending trillions in Afghanistan and Iraq

Plus you don’t care about this…
Shocking scenes in LA as homeless and drug use grows

 

[Oddball]

You’re confused. There is no rejoicing war particularly one purposely instigated and easily avoided.

Ukraine has lost the war. There likely are few Ukrainian men left to fight. They’ve all been sacrificed for the financial benefit of the MIC and US uniparty.

....and Moloch.

 

[rightwinger]

Plus you don’t care about this…
Shocking scenes in LA as homeless and drug use grows

I have to laugh at the recent concern of Conservatives over our homeless population

How can we send billions of dollars to Ukraine while people are homeless?

We have an $850 billion a year budget for our military.
How much of that are Conservatives willing to spend for the homeless?

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Plus you don’t care about this…
Shocking scenes in LA as homeless and drug use grows

There is no rejoicing [at a] war particularly one purposely instigated and easily avoided.

You said at first this war was “clearly wanted by the U.S. government,” and you backed down when I showed how untrue that Russian propaganda was and is.

Now you argue this war was “purposely instigated and easily avoided” by the U.S. — which is more or less the exact same propaganda line, once removed. You think everything is “clear” but in reality you are often … completely wrong.

For example: It is not at all “clear” that the U.S. and Europe was wrong to have allowed Poland to join NATO in 1999, or allow Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia to voluntarily join in 2004 in the largest wave of enlargement in NATO history. Should they have all been flatly refused? And if so, would Russia — whose backward political culture and decaying economy almost inevitably led to the creation of a mafia / security state after the USSR collapsed — have not long ago used the same arguments Putin uses about Russian minorities being oppressed to invade at least the Baltic countries?

You don’t understand history. You only know how to posture politically — and ridiculously — as a “Libertarian / Anarchist.” As if libertarian anarchism could solve the problems of the homeless drug users in L.A.! Actually those miserable communities are a terrible example of what “libertarian anarchism” leads to in the real world. The number of people living on the streets would be multiplied by a thousand times if we tore down capitalist society and government and tried to institute your precious “libertarian anarchism.”

Your criticisms are meant to make you feel good and let you escape hard decisions, blaming the “Establishment” or capitalism for everything, while in fact giving backhanded support to nihilistic views gaining popularity with utterly opportunist Trumpster authoritarians and Putin-loving reactionaries.

In short, while there are plenty of problems with American-style finance capitalism and U.S. foreign policy, plenty of corruption in our society in the “Good Old U.S.A” — your brand of “let’s take care of our own folks at home first” is just a fraud … or a fantasy.

In reality, you are running interference for TRUMPISM, simple-minded MAGA sloganeering, and mimicking old Republican memes about how “small government” is always best. Tell that to Putin and XiJinping. Tell that to the Ukrainians now, who know they need the backing of a great power if they are even to survive as a medium-sized democratic nation.

 

[gipper]

You said at first this war was “clearly wanted by the U.S. government,” and you backed down when I showed how untrue that Russian propaganda was and is.

Now you argue this war was “purposely instigated and easily avoided” by the U.S. — which is more or less the exact same propaganda line, once removed. You think everything is “clear” but in reality you are often … completely wrong.

For example: It is not at all “clear” that the U.S. and Europe was wrong to have allowed Poland to join NATO in 1999, or allow Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia to voluntarily join in 2004 in the largest wave of enlargement in NATO history. Should they have all been flatly refused? And if so, would Russia — whose backward political culture and decaying economy almost inevitably led to the creation of a mafia / security state after the USSR collapsed — have not long ago used the same arguments Putin uses about Russian minorities being oppressed to invade at least the Baltic countries?

You don’t understand history. You only know how to posture politically — and ridiculously — as a “Libertarian / Anarchist.” As if libertarian anarchism could solve the problems of the homeless drug users in L.A.! Actually those miserable communities are a terrible example of what “libertarian anarchism” leads to in the real world. The number of people living on the streets would be multiplied by a thousand times if we tore down capitalist society and government and tried to institute your precious “libertarian anarchism.”

Your criticisms are meant to make you feel good and let you escape hard decisions, blaming the “Establishment” or capitalism for everything, while in fact giving backhanded support to nihilistic views gaining popularity with utterly opportunist Trumpster authoritarians and Putin-loving reactionaries.

In short, while there are plenty of problems with American-style finance capitalism and U.S. foreign policy, plenty of corruption in our society in the “Good Old U.S.A” — your brand of “let’s take care of our own folks at home first” is just a fraud … or a fantasy.

In reality, you are running interference for TRUMPISM, simple-minded MAGA sloganeering, and mimicking old Republican memes about how “small government” is always best. Tell that to Putin and XiJinping. Tell that to the Ukrainians now, who know they need the backing of a great power if they are even to survive as a medium-sized democratic nation.

I stand by my comments and I didn’t back down.