What Promises Were Made For Obamacare - Which Have Materialized/Not Materialized ?

[Sun Devil 92]

How many years are we going to harp on the same point? Of what value is this?

The ACA had a grandfather clause; any plan anyone had when it passed was grandfathered in. No, Obama was not clear that if you subsequently ditched your grandfathered plan and got a non-grandfathered plan, you couldn't necessarily keep that new one when the new rules kicked in. The speechwriters and the policy people didn't do a good job of connecting on that one. The White House's communication about policy under the ACA has been exceedingly unimpressive all along.

But the law did have a grandfather clause to protect pre-ACA plans, the intent (and the outcome) was to allow those existing plans to continue. This wasn't some grand caper to pretend that policy was in the law when it wasn't--that provision does exist.

Because some of us care when we are sold a bill of goods with lies.

Obama was not clear ? How about he lied. You and about three other people on this board would be the only ones who said he didn't.

You don't know it wasn't some grand caper ? Or do you have access to information you'd like to share.

That grandfather plan you speak about didn't warrent the implied unconditional ability to keep a plan.l

PERIOD.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

But the law did have a grandfather clause to protect pre-ACA plans, the intent (and the outcome) was to allow those existing plans to continue. This wasn't some grand caper to pretend that policy was in the law when it wasn't--that provision does exist.

Horsecrap.

Nobody used the term "Junk Plan" until after the ACA started damaging people.

There was not one mention of it prior.

That ACA took away plans many were expecting to keep.

Hence my skepticism at your "expertise".

You appear to be nothing but a schill.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

And all you need do is type in "you can keep your plan" on Youtube and you'll see this time and time again.

Love how Hillary was following the same story line.

When conservatives (not the right) asked how that math worked....all you got was the same repeated lie over and over again.

This one didn't materialize.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

What constitutes a "promise"? And by whom?

Are we talking about campaign speeches by political candidates, projections and modeling from the CBO or CMS, aspirations laid out by health economists and policy analysts, what? What exactly are you looking for?

OMFG!!! He's on some automatic system that brings him out of Cass's office to post here

What's the budget for, what do you call it, Awareness (aka: paying people to post about ObamaCare on the Internet)

Yes, that's Greenbeard

 

[CrusaderFrank]

What constitutes a "promise"? And by whom?

Are we talking about campaign speeches by political candidates, projections and modeling from the CBO or CMS, aspirations laid out by health economists and policy analysts, what? What exactly are you looking for?

[VIDEO]Lie of the Year: 'If you like your health care plan, you can keep it'

 

[Arianrhod]

Threads like this serve a very important function by showcasing both sides of the health insurance discussion - the rational, factual one, and the "ZOMG, I CAN HAZ PHOTOSHOP!1111!" one.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

What constitutes a "promise"? And by whom?

Are we talking about campaign speeches by political candidates, projections and modeling from the CBO or CMS, aspirations laid out by health economists and policy analysts, what? What exactly are you looking for?

^ "In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality was tacitly denied by their philosophy."

Orwell was a cockeyed optimist vastly underestimating how truly fucking Evil our Progressives would become

 

[Arianrhod]

What constitutes a "promise"? And by whom?

Are we talking about campaign speeches by political candidates, projections and modeling from the CBO or CMS, aspirations laid out by health economists and policy analysts, what? What exactly are you looking for?

^ "In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality was tacitly denied by their philosophy."

Orwell was a cockeyed optimist vastly underestimating how truly fucking Evil our Progressives would become

Nice admission that you're inadequate to respond to Greenbeard's post.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Threads like this serve a very important function by showcasing both sides of the health insurance discussion - the rational, factual one, and the "ZOMG, I CAN HAZ PHOTOSHOP!1111!" one.

It sucks that you lost your media monopoly and can't make Obama's promises vanish down the memory hole

 

[Greenbeard]

Because some of us care when we are sold a bill of goods with lies.

I get it, you don't think the grandfather clause was adequately explained to you. That's a very good argument for learning how things work yourself instead of waiting for a politician to explain them to you. I've already said Obama botched it--and he's been publicly spanked for it quite a bit. As a policy matter, his subsequent attempt to extend grandfathered status to post ACA plans was foolish and damaging to markets in those states that took up the option.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

What constitutes a "promise"? And by whom?

Are we talking about campaign speeches by political candidates, projections and modeling from the CBO or CMS, aspirations laid out by health economists and policy analysts, what? What exactly are you looking for?

^ "In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality was tacitly denied by their philosophy."

Orwell was a cockeyed optimist vastly underestimating how truly fucking Evil our Progressives would become

Nice admission that you're inadequate to respond to Greenbeard's post.

We decimated Greenbeard flaccid attempt at defending Obama lies

 

[Greenbeard]

Hence my skepticism at your "expertise".

I don't believe I've invoked a claim of "expertise" to support a point in lieu of facts. So I'm not sure what this is in response to or what you're quoting.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Because some of us care when we are sold a bill of goods with lies.

I get it, you don't think the grandfather clause was adequately explained to you. That's a very good argument for learning how things work yourself instead of waiting for a politician to explain them to you. I've already said Obama botched it--and he's been publicly spanked for it quite a bit. As a policy matter, his subsequent attempt to extend grandfathered status to post ACA plans was foolish and damaging to markets in those states that took up the option.

Not adequately explained to me.

Did you see the Stewart Clip ?

When John Stewart goes after Obama, there is a problem.

PERIOD. That was explanation enough.

There was no explanation prior. Hence it was a lie. PERIOD.

 

[Arianrhod]

Because some of us care when we are sold a bill of goods with lies.

I get it, you don't think the grandfather clause was adequately explained to you. That's a very good argument for learning how things work yourself instead of waiting for a politician to explain them to you. I've already said Obama botched it--and he's been publicly spanked for it quite a bit. As a policy matter, his subsequent attempt to extend grandfathered status to post ACA plans was foolish and damaging to markets in those states that took up the option.

Not adequately explained to me.

Did you see the Stewart Clip ?

When John Stewart goes after Obama, there is a problem.

PERIOD. That was explanation enough.

There was no explanation prior. Hence it was a lie. PERIOD.

So a comedian's riff is more "factual" to you than the facts. Fascinating...

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Hence my skepticism at your "expertise".

I don't believe I've invoked a claim of "expertise" to support a point in lieu of facts. So I'm not sure what this is in response to or what you're quoting.

You are correct

Hence my skepticism at your "expertise".

I don't believe I've invoked a claim of "expertise" to support a point in lieu of facts. So I'm not sure what this is in response to or what you're quoting.

You are correct...this is a shot at LoneLaugher

Obamacare.......the good stuff. | Page 7 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Because some of us care when we are sold a bill of goods with lies.

I get it, you don't think the grandfather clause was adequately explained to you. That's a very good argument for learning how things work yourself instead of waiting for a politician to explain them to you. I've already said Obama botched it--and he's been publicly spanked for it quite a bit. As a policy matter, his subsequent attempt to extend grandfathered status to post ACA plans was foolish and damaging to markets in those states that took up the option.

Not adequately explained to me.

Did you see the Stewart Clip ?

When John Stewart goes after Obama, there is a problem.

PERIOD. That was explanation enough.

There was no explanation prior. Hence it was a lie. PERIOD.

So a comedian's riff is more "factual" to you than the facts. Fascinating...

Good grief !

It was given the lie of the year.

I am sure they don't qualify either.

Do me a favor...don't respond to my posts. You are an ass.

Stewart only shows clips of Obama's statements made by Obama. Then points out that the backpeddling is B.S.

 

[Greenbeard]

Not adequately explained to me.

Yes. You should seem very confused by something that we were openly discussing on this forum five years ago. (At the time we were discussing it as a policy question and not an exercise in critiquing political rhetoric so obviously it was a different era.)

Granted, you're not alone in that. And certainly that's a huge failing of Obama and his communications team. Their work conveying what the ACA does and how it does it these past five years has been almost uniformly abysmal.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Looking at: Obamacare will lower premiums 2,500 per year.


While this one seems like an easy call, it is hard to imagine that such a claim could not be qualified. At least there was not the emphatic “period” that has caused so much grief in discussing the “you can keep your health care plan”.


Keeping your health care plan is either a yes or a no. You either kept it or you didn’t.


What has to be kept in mind is that premiums have been going up for many years.


So what this a statement that meant an absolute reduction in premiums or a relative reduction (meaning that if your premium was going up by 2,500 and you were saved 2,500, you’d see no increase) ?


This is less clear to me.


If you google this, you get all kinds of hits from the usual cast of characters:


From RedState:


2016 RedState Gathering


where they claim that prices have gone up by $3,000 (again, was Obama saying they would have gone up $5,500 if not for Obamacare ?).


Politifact rated this: A promise broken


Cut the cost of a typical family's health insurance premium by up to $2,500 a year


But in reading the analysis, I think the following are worth quoting. They describe the issues with such a complex piece of legislation:


The 2008 New York Times article explains how Cutler and his colleagues calculated the $2,500 figure, a round number based on back-of-the-envelope arithmetic.


"That number is much simpler than the world of insurance actually is,” said Deborah Chollet, a health economist for Mathematica Policy Research, a nonpartisan policy analysis group.


Chollet is then quoted as saying:


Chollet said even when the law get fully implemented, health care researchers will have trouble teasing out the effects of the health care law vs. external factors such as the economy.


Which is what I struggled with all along.


Prior to it’s implemention and now…..all kinds of claims are made for and against it in terms of it’s impact.


Should President Obama have known this: It seems he should have.


One of the issues with health care (and one that would seem true) is that people were not very good buyers of healthcare products and services. Selling a program like this on a significant number of know untruths/can’t deliver seems like a bad way to change consumer behavior.


Just go to YouTube and you can get all kinds of quotes on this.


Again, not so clear to me.

 

[Greenbeard]

You are correct...this is a shot at LoneLaugher

Obamacare.......the good stuff. | Page 7 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Which you brought up why?

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Not adequately explained to me.

Yes. You should seem very confused by something that we were openly discussing on this forum five years ago. (At the time we were discussing it as a policy question and not an exercise in critiquing political rhetoric so obviously it was a different era.)

Granted, you're not alone in that. And certainly that's a huge failing of Obama and his communications team. Their work conveying what the ACA does and how it does it these past five years has been almost uniformly abysmal.

I was discussing it back then too.

And like many could not get much information for all the yelling and screaming that was going on.

You don't launch a program like this without better information and there is some thought that they know.

This constitutes a bald faced lie.