What Offense Did the Ukrainian People Commit That Caused Them to Be Bombed into Oblivion by The Russian Military at the Command of Putin?

[AntonToo]

Yes something you don't have when talking about Russians.

What specifically don't I have? Wtf are you talking about?

Can you coherently, rationaly express yourself?



And even if I don't, then all that would mean is problems with my arguments, not reasonable support for your wild claims that America is lying about no-deployment of combat troops in Ukraine.

 

[Deadstick]

What specifically don't I have? Wtf are you talking about?

Can you coherently, rationaly express yourself?



And even if I don't, then all that would mean is problems with my arguments, not reasonable support for your wild claims that America is lying about no-deployment of combat troops in Ukraine.

All of it arsehole from Russia fighting with shovels to running out of missiles two years ago and kidnapping children, that's enough to be going on with.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

We have an agreement with Ukraine to help their defence if they get attackled and thats what we are doing.

When did we make that agreement?

 

[MisterBeale]

In thinking about why Israel is destroying Gaza and killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians, it caused me, in comparison, to wonder why Putin began bombing Ukraine. I honestly could not remember why this all began.

I'm sure we all agree that retaliating for having been attacked and having your citizens abducted and killed is more than reason enough to go after the perpetrators, even if we do not necessarily agree with how they are going about carrying this out. But what I'm struck with at the moment is how Putin was NOT defending Russia, or retaliating for an attack against the country and its people. This wholesale slaughter of innocent people seems to be based on ideology?

IN the days and hours before Russia invaded, Ukraine had an army of around 150,000 troops massing and preparing to invade the Donbas.

This is why Russia went into Ukraine with significantly less forces than the whole of the Ukrainaian armed forces. Most folks know, that the invader usually require a 3 to one numbers advantage.

The only numbers Russia was worried about, originally, were those that were already mobilized in Ukraine. They did a feint toward Kiev to make them withdraw. . . temporarily obviously.



Now. . . if the west and the U.S. had forced Zelinsky to keep to the Minsk treaty? None of this would have happened. But the goal of NATO and the west was to provoke Russia to war.

John (RIP) explains it better than I.

I don't know if you know who John Pilger is. . . but he is a real liberal, not like all these neo-con and neo-liberal fascists most folks in Europe and America keep posting and listening to.

February 18, 2022

War in Europe and the Rise of Raw Propaganda​

by John Pilger

War in Europe and the Rise of Raw Propaganda

Marshall McLuhan’s prophecy that “the successor to politics will be propaganda” has happened. Raw propaganda is now the rule in Western democracies, especially the US and Britain On matters of war and peace, ministerial deceit is reported as news. Inconvenient facts are censored, demons are...

www.counterpunch.org

". . . The no-evidence rule also applies in London. The British Foreign Secretary, Liz Truss, who spent £500,000 of public money flying to Australia in a private plane to warn the Canberra government that both Russia and China were about to pounce, offered no evidence. Antipodean heads nodded; the “narrative” is unchallenged there. One rare exception, former prime minister Paul Keating, called Truss’s warmongering “demented”.

Truss has blithely confused the countries of the Baltic and Black Sea. In Moscow, she told the Russian foreign minister that Britain would never accept Russian sovereignty over Rostov and Voronezh – until it was pointed out to her that these places were not part of Ukraine but in Russia. Read the Russian press about the buffoonery of this pretender to 10 Downing Street and cringe.

This entire farce, recently starring Boris Johnson in Moscow playing a clownish version of his hero, Churchill, might be enjoyed as satire were it not for its wilful abuse of facts and historical understanding and the real danger of war.

Vladimir Putin refers to the “genocide” in the eastern Donbas region of Ukraine. Following the coup in Ukraine in 2014 – orchestrated by Barack Obama’s “point person” in Kyiv, Victoria Nuland – the coup regime, infested with neo-Nazis, launched a campaign of terror against Russian-speaking Donbas, which accounts for a third of Ukraine’s population.

Overseen by CIA director John Brennan in Kyiv, “special security units” coordinated savage attacks on the people of Donbas, who opposed the coup. Video and eyewitness reports show bussed fascist thugs burning the trade union headquarters in the city of Odessa, killing 41 people trapped inside. The police are standing by. Obama congratulated the “duly elected” coup regime for its “remarkable restraint”.

In the US media the Odessa atrocity was played down as “murky” and a “tragedy” in which “nationalists” (neo-Nazis) attacked “separatists” (people collecting signatures for a referendum on a federal Ukraine). Rupert Murdoch’s Wall Street Journal damned the victims – “Deadly Ukraine Fire Likely Sparked by Rebels, Government Says”.

Professor Stephen Cohen, acclaimed as America’s leading authority on Russia, wrote, “The pogrom-like burning to death of ethnic Russians and others in Odessa reawakened memories of Nazi extermination squads in Ukraine during world war two. [Today] storm-like assaults on gays, Jews, elderly ethnic Russians, and other ‘impure’ citizens are widespread throughout Kyiv-ruled Ukraine, along with torchlight marches reminiscent of those that eventually inflamed Germany in the late 1920s and 1930s …"

<snip>

". . . Russian-speaking Ukrainians, under economic blockade by Kyiv for seven years, are fighting for their survival. The “massing” army we seldom hear about are the thirteen Ukrainian army brigades laying siege to Donbas: an estimated 150,000 troops. If they attack, the provocation to Russia will almost certainly mean war.

In 2015, brokered by the Germans and French, the presidents of Russia, Ukraine, Germany and France met in Minsk and signed an interim peace deal. Ukraine agreed to offer autonomy to Donbas, now the self declared republics of Donetsk and Luhansk.

The Minsk agreement has never been given a chance. In Britain, the line, amplified by Boris Johnson, is that Ukraine is being “dictated to” by world leaders. For its part, Britain is arming Ukraine and training its army.. . . "

Here is a phone call between Russia and France, literally HOURS before the invasion, with Putin pleading with the west to abide by the terms of the Minsk Treaty.

Macron and Putin negotiated about Ukraine a while ago​

Leaked phone call reveals fiery exchange between Putin, Macron days before Ukraine war

French President Emmanuel Macron and his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin had an intense argument over the phone about Ukraine just four days before Moscow’s forces invaded the country.

nypost.com

". . Putin then took issue with Zelensky’s apparent refusal to negotiate with pro-Kremlin Ukrainian separatists, which infuriated the French president and prompted him to exclaim in audible frustration: “I don’t know where your lawyer learned law!”

Un Président, l'Europe et la guerre

Le 1er janvier 2022, la France prend la présidence du Conseil de l'Union européenne. En entamant son mandat le président français entend pousser de nombreuses réformes auprès de ses partenaires. Mais la guerre en Ukraine bouleverse ses plans. L'Europe, stupéfaite, doit alors affronter sur son...

www.france.tv

 

[MisterBeale]

The people of Donbas have full citizenship rights and voting rights with representation in the Ukrainian government. It’s a little different for the people of Gaza.

If the Jewish population outnumbered the Palestinian population three to one, like the Western Ukrainians out number the folks in Donbas, then yeah, Gazans would have the right to vote in the Jewish state as well.

The Israeli government allows Arabs into their politics and society, but ensures they are the numerical minority.

 

[ESay]

Sold everything and it wasn't much of anything in $ terms.

Any more personal questions in absense of on-topic substance?

Yeah, this is the same as it was with my next door neighbours who also migrated there.

Don't you think that America can go through the same turbulent period as your former homeland?

 

[AntonToo]

When did we make that agreement?

In 1994 when America was pressuring Ukraine to give up it's nuclear weapons.

Memorandum on security assurances in connection with Ukraine’s accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons

UNTC

treaties.un.org

 

[AntonToo]

Yeah, this is the same as it was with my next door neighbours who also migrated there.

Don't you think that America can go through the same turbulent period as your former homeland?

No, I don't think America is going to suddenly turn into underdeveloped, corrupt, repressive state like Russia.

 

[AntonToo]

All of it arsehole from Russia fighting with shovels to running out of missiles two years ago and kidnapping children, that's enough to be going on with.

Quote me bullshit peddler.

I've never claimed any of it

Kidnapping of chidren is true however, which is a war crime charge against Putin by the International Court. There is an arrest warrant on him, which is why he doesn't visit IC signatory countries.

 

[ESay]

No, I don't think America is going to suddenly turn into underdeveloped, corrupt, repressive state like Russia.

Ask your parents, I hope they are still around and well, what they thought about the Soviet Union in the 1960-70s.

 

[AntonToo]

Ask your parents, I hope they are still around and well, what they thought about the Soviet Union in the 1960-70s.

They are alive and well, spending their winters in sunny Florida.

Represive, underdeveloped, corrupt-at-every-level country...but hey, they were young - thats what they think of their USSR days.

 

[Deadstick]

Quote me bullshit peddler.

I've never claimed any of it

Kidnapping of chidren is true however, which is a war crime charge against Putin by the International Court. There is an arrest warrant on him, which is why he doesn't visit IC signatory countries.

An arrest warrant issued by a court your Country didn't sign up to, in fact your Country threatened any official from that court going to the US to investigate your war crimes would be arrested, then you have the Hague invasion act that says you can invade the the Netherlands if the ICC puts your people on trial, and first time i have heard evacuating Children away from fighting and attack is Kidnapping, in WW2 one of my aunties and an Uncle were evacuated from Manchester because the City was bombed every night by the Germans, they were not kidnapped you moron.

 

[Deadstick]

Represive socialist shithole, thats what they thought of it.

Don't tell me you are Russian.

 

[AntonToo]

Don't tell me you are Russian.

I'm an American citizen of Russian ethnicity.

 

[AntonToo]

An arrest warrant issued by a court your Country didn't sign up to, in fact your Country threatened any official from that court going to the US to investigate your war crimes would be arrested, then you have the Hague invasion act that says you can invade the the Netherlands if the ICC puts your people on trial, and first time i have heard evacuating Children away from fighting and attack is Kidnapping, in WW2 one of my aunties and an Uncle were evacuated from Manchester because the City was bombed every night by the Germans, they were not kidnapped you moron.

NOT THE POINT bullshit peddler.

The point was that I never claimed any of it and the rest is your deflection from the fact that you've never seen me say it....from yet another deflection of you being unable to support with any sort of evidence that American government is supposedly lying about not having any combat troops in Ukraine.

Bullshit on top of deflection on top of bullshit about a deflection. Aren't you even SLIGHTLY embarrassed for the quality of your posts?

 

[ESay]

They are alive and well, spending their winters in sunny Florida.

Represive, underdeveloped, corrupt-at-every-level country...but hey, they were young - thats what they think of their USSR days.

I don't think you are honest here. But that doesn't matter.

 

[AntonToo]

I don't think you are honest here. But that doesn't matter.

I don't think you've got a clue.

You seriously think people leave countries they are happy in to start from zero in foreign country with completely different language and a way of life?

 

[ESay]

I don't think you've got a clue.

You seriously think people leave countries they are happy in to start from zero in foreign country with completely different language and a way of life?

Of course not. But your parents didn't leave the represive Soviets, they left 'democratic' Russia.

 

[AntonToo]

Of course not. But your parents didn't leave the represive Soviets, they left 'democratic' Russia.

They left when they've got a chance.

There was never a democratic Russia, that term suggests a level of competetive politics and lawfulness that never existed in Russia, even if it got closer to something like that in the 90's, a period marked by deteriorated economy as the country was transitioning from socialism.

 

[ESay]

I don't think you've got a clue.

You seriously think people leave countries they are happy in to start from zero in foreign country with completely different language and a way of life?

BTW, I don't think they started 'from zero'. Being based on my former neighbours' experience, they got a legal status, social housing, medical insurance, food stamps, living allowance etc.