What is your understanding of the atonement, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus Christ

[Mr.Right]

I am not scorning or ridiculing. And those are you words bearing false witness against me. Go back and read them. I said in public. You can do whatever you want in private. And, verily, yes, you need the guidance and instruction of one who is far more knowledgeable than you on matters of our Lord and Savior.

Are you going to bare false witness against me.

You said "Really, guys, you don't need Porker's or Mr. Right's nonsense stories." That seems an awful lot like ridicule to me. So how did I bear bare false witness. You then said that you would not allow me to insult God or the Bible, implying that I'm a fool about Scripture. You then claim to be the sole font of Biblical truth and that you were willing to instruct a poor fool, such as myself, in the error of his ways. You seem, to me, like a vainglorious fool.

That was not to which you were referring, and you know it.

You have shown you are foolish about scripture, and, yes, I will not let you do it.

"Sole font" is your words, so, yes, you are bearing false witness against me.

I am willing, in conversation privately, to instruct you.

If you continue with evangelical, fundamentalist, Pentecostal, or Church of Christ, or such heresy, yes, you will be corrected openly on the Board.

I am not scorning or ridiculing. And those are you words bearing false witness against me. Go back and read them. I said in public. You can do whatever you want in private. And, verily, yes, you need the guidance and instruction of one who is far more knowledgeable than you on matters of our Lord and Savior.

Are you going to bare false witness against me.

You said "Really, guys, you don't need Porker's or Mr. Right's nonsense stories." That seems an awful lot like ridicule to me. So how did I bear bare false witness. You then said that you would not allow me to insult God or the Bible, implying that I'm a fool about Scripture. You then claim to be the sole font of Biblical truth and that you were willing to instruct a poor fool, such as myself, in the error of his ways. You seem, to me, like a vainglorious fool.

That was not to which you were referring, and you know it.

You have shown you are foolish about scripture, and, yes, I will not let you do it.

"Sole font" is your words, so, yes, you are bearing false witness against me.

I am willing, in conversation privately, to instruct you.

If you continue with evangelical, fundamentalist, Pentecostal, or Church of Christ, or such heresy, yes, you will be corrected openly on the Board.

whatever. as I said earlier, I have the Bible and the Holy Spirit. that's all I need.you claim to have superior knowledge of Scripture. that's your opinion. I'm willing to learn and be instructed. but all you want to do is lecture me.in private, no less.

 

[Immanuel]

A return to the Word of God as opposed to what we have today which would be more accurately described as a free for all. We have too much "human interpretation" of what God said that I am afraid we no longer know what God said. My comment was no more a condemnation of today's Catholic Church as it is of my own denomination "Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod" and myself.

Now it seems so easy to condemn the Catholic Church of Luther's time. Indulgences and the likes, but it seems to me that we have lost our ways. So many "interpretations" of every verse of the Bible these days. So many different interpretations and explanations of what God really meant when he said... How do we filter out the false interpretations from what God really said?

Well that's the million dollar question isn't it? It would be great if everyone could read Hebrew and Greek and had access to Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus, etc. If everyone was well educated in ancient history and ancient cultures in order to put scripture into proper perspective. I began to immerse myself in hard, deep study when I was 10 or 11...so about 33 years ago or so and I feel that I have barely scratched the surface. I think one of the things that became liberating for me was when I finally got to the point where, in regard to certain principles, I said to myself, "I don't know, scholars don't know, priests and pastors don't know, we will probably never know....and that's perfectly fine."

As far as filtering out the misinterpretations and mistranslations....I think the best one can do is to read as much on a given topic as they can, listen to all sides of an argument, think about it, meditate upon it, open ourselves to spiritual guidance, and reach the best conclusion we can...or sometimes even, just learn to be content with the idea that there is no conclusion to be reached. That has been my method. It has worked for me. I am certainly open to better ideas though.

I have recently read several articles about what we as Christians actually know about the Bible and much of what Christians know of the Bible and surprisingly Christians did worse than atheists. Here is one of the articles:

Christians Failed the Religious Knowledge Test - The Gospel.com Blog

Did God really say, that the Earth was created in seven days? Or was it seven periods of time? Did God start from nothing or did a "big bang" caused by God start things in motion? Does it really matter? What would Jesus Do? or my favorite WWJD--Why would Jesus die?

Luther's Reformation was a rejection of man's organized religion. It is what we need today. A rejection of our biblical inaccuracies and a return to faith in God.

I understand what you are saying. I think it depends on the individual. You seem to be a person who does not require a church to find your path. Some people do and that does not make them inferior or stupid or anything like that. They simply have different needs. I completely get what you are saying though

I love my church, but lately I have been feeling other burdens that are pushing me away. I'm thinking it is time for a new view, a new pastor. My current pastor tells me "how it is" and is not open to learning by discussion. Rather, he lectures... I don't like to be lectured. I want to ask honest questions and to get honest replies. I do not learn from lectures. I learn from asking and answering questions, researching and making mistakes.

I too am perfectly fine with never knowing or better yet, waiting for an answer to be revealed at a later date. The answers are out there. Revelation of the answers just takes time and patience.

 

[Immanuel]

As Christians, we are told to search the Scriptures. Do not depend on what others say about the Bible. Accept any instruction that is offered, but also verify it against Scripture. above all else, pray and ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Yet today, we have renowned Bible interpreters such as Fred Phelps that tell us "God Hates Fags" and many believed him. /sarcasm off

But really, would God approve of any discrimination in the name of "Religious Freedom"?

I don't think so. It seems to me to be an incredible contradiction for Christians to reject homosexuals in the manner in which many do. But here's the problem. Religion is a topic wherein people get so entrenched in their beliefs that it can be impossible to drag them out or get them to think in a different manner. I have been posting on these boards for a couple years on and off and, while I would never suggest I am a great scholar or anything like that, I would be comfortable stating that I know more than the average guy and can present a good argument. Want to know how many people have changed their minds on these boards because of an argument I have made? Zero. Not one. Nada, zilch, zip, nichts, cero, not a sausage. How do you argue with someone who is not willing to listen?

There have been discussions I have been in recently with other posters where I could have continued the discussion, but why? They were not interested in a discussion. They were interested in proclaiming their truth. Why waste the energy?

Hehe, that is exactly why I was gone for so long and am doubtful that this return will last long.

The quality of discussion on this board has shrunk to little more than name calling. No one will discuss a topic beyond, "you are wrong" followed by name calling.

But for the record, my mind has been changed in several areas on message boards. I have come to respect many of the people that I disagreed with in the past on message boards and even if I do not change my mind, given an honest discussion, I do in fact, open my mind to the points of views of others.

 

[JakeStarkey]

In what way would you support another Reformation? In regards to the Catholic Church, I do not embrace their views but I respect their beliefs. They are far from the corrupt institution that they were in the Middle Ages. They still have their problems of course. All religions do but they have come a very long way. I am actually quite impressed by Pope Francis, in fact.

A return to the Word of God as opposed to what we have today which would be more accurately described as a free for all. We have too much "human interpretation" of what God said that I am afraid we no longer know what God said. My comment was no more a condemnation of today's Catholic Church as it is of my own denomination "Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod" and myself.

Now it seems so easy to condemn the Catholic Church of Luther's time. Indulgences and the likes, but it seems to me that we have lost our ways. So many "interpretations" of every verse of the Bible these days. So many different interpretations and explanations of what God really meant when he said... How do we filter out the false interpretations from what God really said?

I have recently read several articles about what we as Christians actually know about the Bible and much of what Christians know of the Bible and surprisingly Christians did worse than atheists. Here is one of the articles:

Christians Failed the Religious Knowledge Test - The Gospel.com Blog

Did God really say, that the Earth was created in seven days? Or was it seven periods of time? Did God start from nothing or did a "big bang" caused by God start things in motion? Does it really matter? What would Jesus Do? or my favorite WWJD--Why would Jesus die?

Luther's Reformation was a rejection of man's organized religion. It is what we need today. A rejection of our biblical inaccuracies and a return to faith in God.

As Christians, we are told to search the Scriptures. Do not depend on what others say about the Bible. Accept any instruction that is offered, but also verify it against Scripture. above all else, pray and ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the Word, not the scriptures. Seek wisdom in prayer, friend.

 

[BluePhantom]

I love my church, but lately I have been feeling other burdens that are pushing me away. I'm thinking it is time for a new view, a new pastor. My current pastor tells me "how it is" and is not open to learning by discussion. Rather, he lectures... I don't like to be lectured. I want to ask honest questions and to get honest replies. I do not learn from lectures. I learn from asking and answering questions, researching and making mistakes.

I too am perfectly fine with never knowing or better yet, waiting for an answer to be revealed at a later date. The answers are out there. Revelation of the answers just takes time and patience.

If you don't mind me saying so, just from what you are posting...if I might make a suggestion. Recently I have been posting a lot about James Fowler's Stages of Faith. I don't know why...it is just central in my mind right now for some reason. If you are not familiar with it here is a link that will give you a quick summary. Chart of James Fowler s Stages of Faith psychologycharts.com A Google search will provide a lot more information. It's quite intriguing and I encourage you to study it a bit. It may just be that you are transitioning from one stage to the next stage and when that happens (especially between stage three and stage four) it can be a pretty bumpy ride. I am not meaning to imply what stage you may be in, just that the sudden generation of a lot of questions can often be a hint that you are simply transitioning to a higher level of faith. I remember my "stage four turmoil", as it is coming to be known, and let me tell you....that was not a pleasant experience.

 

[BluePhantom]

Hehe, that is exactly why I was gone for so long and am doubtful that this return will last long.

The quality of discussion on this board has shrunk to little more than name calling. No one will discuss a topic beyond, "you are wrong" followed by name calling.

But for the record, my mind has been changed in several areas on message boards. I have come to respect many of the people that I disagreed with in the past on message boards and even if I do not change my mind, given an honest discussion, I do in fact, open my mind to the points of views of others.

Yeah I hear you. But you know there are several people who post that I think have a lot to offer. Jake Starkey, I believe, has some great insights on several things (although he is in a bit of a pissing match right now ). You and I have talked before and I always felt you had good contributions. Delta4Embassy, while not a person of faith, asks some questions that I think are extraordinary sometimes in their depth, complexity, and thought provoking nature. I had a delightful conversation with Pogo the other day wherein we had a very constructive exchange of ideas....so you know....there are some good posters out there that have a lot to offer. Yeah there are some numb skulls, and I won't name them because we all know who they are, but I think good conversation can still be found at USMB if you look for it.

 

[Immanuel]

I love my church, but lately I have been feeling other burdens that are pushing me away. I'm thinking it is time for a new view, a new pastor. My current pastor tells me "how it is" and is not open to learning by discussion. Rather, he lectures... I don't like to be lectured. I want to ask honest questions and to get honest replies. I do not learn from lectures. I learn from asking and answering questions, researching and making mistakes.

I too am perfectly fine with never knowing or better yet, waiting for an answer to be revealed at a later date. The answers are out there. Revelation of the answers just takes time and patience.

If you don't mind me saying so, just from what you are posting...if I might make a suggestion. Recently I have been posting a lot about James Fowler's Stages of Faith. I don't know why...it is just central in my mind right now for some reason. If you are not familiar with it here is a link that will give you a quick summary. Chart of James Fowler s Stages of Faith psychologycharts.com A Google search will provide a lot more information. It's quite intriguing and I encourage you to study it a bit. It may just be that you are transitioning from one stage to the next stage and when that happens (especially between stage three and stage four) it can be a pretty bumpy ride. I am not meaning to imply what stage you may be in, just that the sudden generation of a lot of questions can often be a hint that you are simply transitioning to a higher level of faith. I remember my "stage four turmoil", as it is coming to be known, and let me tell you....that was not a pleasant experience.

Thanks for the information. Just briefly reviewing that, I would have to say that, I may very well be making the jump from stage 3 to stage 4. I have been struggling with my beliefs especially my belief in what my faith teaches. In fact, I fear I must admit that there has been a significant amount of "doubt" when I look at the teachings of many of today's so called religious leaders and reconciling those teachings with my faith. The thought that I might be "backsliding" has indeed entered my mind. I read about the debates that are going on in today's society and I cannot reconcile the hatred I see from people of faith (people who are renowned and respected in the community) for others. They would not call it hatred, but I would.

I plan on examining this further as I am not at all pleased with where I am today.

 

[Immanuel]

Hehe, that is exactly why I was gone for so long and am doubtful that this return will last long.

The quality of discussion on this board has shrunk to little more than name calling. No one will discuss a topic beyond, "you are wrong" followed by name calling.

But for the record, my mind has been changed in several areas on message boards. I have come to respect many of the people that I disagreed with in the past on message boards and even if I do not change my mind, given an honest discussion, I do in fact, open my mind to the points of views of others.

Yeah I hear you. But you know there are several people who post that I think have a lot to offer. Jake Starkey, I believe, has some great insights on several things (although he is in a bit of a pissing match right now ). You and I have talked before and I always felt you had good contributions. Delta4Embassy, while not a person of faith, asks some questions that I think are extraordinary sometimes in their depth, complexity, and thought provoking nature. I had a delightful conversation with Pogo the other day wherein we had a very constructive exchange of ideas....so you know....there are some good posters out there that have a lot to offer. Yeah there are some numb skulls, and I won't name them because we all know who they are, but I think good conversation can still be found at USMB if you look for it.

I have had some great conversations with each of those individuals as well as others. I have fought with some others only to find the respect afterwards enhanced. Yet right now, it seems impossible to weave through all of the BS.

 

[BluePhantom]

Thanks for the information. Just briefly reviewing that, I would have to say that, I may very well be making the jump from stage 3 to stage 4. I have been struggling with my beliefs especially my belief in what my faith teaches. In fact, I fear I must admit that there has been a significant amount of "doubt" when I look at the teachings of many of today's so called religious leaders and reconciling those teachings with my faith. The thought that I might be "backsliding" has indeed entered my mind. I read about the debates that are going on in today's society and I cannot reconcile the hatred I see from people of faith (people who are renowned and respected in the community) for others. They would not call it hatred, but I would.

I plan on examining this further as I am not at all pleased with where I am today.

That stage 3 to stage 4 transition is by far the hardest. Sometimes it can downright violent. Lots of people's faith don't survive it. Stage three is really indicative of black and white, all or nothing, thinking and when you transition to stage four and start doubting all the things you have been taught, it is so common to be tempted to throw the baby out with the bathwater and just turn your back on the whole thing. My wife recently went through her stage four turmoil and I am so glad I had already gone through it so I could guide her. She transitioned a bit later in life so it was harder for her than those who make that jump at an earlier age. She damn near said "**** it all" and turned to atheism.

Here's the great news, Immanuel. Despite how turbulent it feels, despite how confused and angry it makes you, what you are experiencing is a blessing. According to how I view it, it is God telling you that you are ready for more. If your faith can survive the transition, you will emerge with a far more powerful faith that is much more personal in nature with God, and much better equipped to help you deal with the challenges of what can be a harsh world. You will find a new relationship with scripture and begin to find totally new applications in your life for what scripture offers us. Those applications will be more than just "surface applications". That is to say, they will be applications that are specific and personally spiritual and are given authority by your own personal relationship with God instead of an external authority. I am telling you...if you can get through this time, your faith and relationship with God will become totally different, but it will be all yours instead of what has been thrust upon you. I am actually so excited for you because you are going to LOVE what comes next if you can get through it.

And please forgive me if I sound condescending. That's not my intent. I just know what is coming for you and I am seriously pumped up because it is going to be fantastic.

 

[BluePhantom]

Hehe, that is exactly why I was gone for so long and am doubtful that this return will last long.

The quality of discussion on this board has shrunk to little more than name calling. No one will discuss a topic beyond, "you are wrong" followed by name calling.

But for the record, my mind has been changed in several areas on message boards. I have come to respect many of the people that I disagreed with in the past on message boards and even if I do not change my mind, given an honest discussion, I do in fact, open my mind to the points of views of others.

Yeah I hear you. But you know there are several people who post that I think have a lot to offer. Jake Starkey, I believe, has some great insights on several things (although he is in a bit of a pissing match right now ). You and I have talked before and I always felt you had good contributions. Delta4Embassy, while not a person of faith, asks some questions that I think are extraordinary sometimes in their depth, complexity, and thought provoking nature. I had a delightful conversation with Pogo the other day wherein we had a very constructive exchange of ideas....so you know....there are some good posters out there that have a lot to offer. Yeah there are some numb skulls, and I won't name them because we all know who they are, but I think good conversation can still be found at USMB if you look for it.

I have had some great conversations with each of those individuals as well as others. I have fought with some others only to find the respect afterwards enhanced. Yet right now, it seems impossible to weave through all of the BS.

Oh some of my best friendships on these boards actually started as adversarial. Actually, and I might be wrong here, but if I recall correctly, Jake Starkey was one of the first people I encountered after I created my profile and he absolutely torched me. I mean he offered no quarter for the new kid on the street and chewed me up one side and down the other for some reason. I don't remember why exactly, but I love the guy now. I think it was Jake. It could have been someone else. Whoever it was he made me earn my stripes I can assure you of that.

I have to laugh a lot because I am a Republican but the majority of the posters whom I consider "friends" are actually Democrats with whom I battled at one point. There are a few Republicans with whom I have a "USMB friendship", however that is defined, but strangely enough most of them are liberals. We bust each other's balls but we have mad respect for each other. That's the way it ought to be though, don't you think?

 

[JakeStarkey]

We all can learn from each other, both lessons good and bad.

Phantom probably dissed me for me being wrong: unforgivable! Yeah, I am one of those guys who ask grace for my sins but too often demand good works from others for theirs.

My apologies to all. Thanks, BP, for being a good one and reminding me in a good way.

For the atheists and the hard core socons and all the rest, especially me let's try for 24 hours to treat others with grace.

 

[BluePhantom]

I would have to say that, I may very well be making the jump from stage 3 to stage 4....The thought that I might be "backsliding" has indeed entered my mind.

Forgive me for beating the dead horse but this comment just struck me and I wanted to comment on it. That stage 3 to stage 4 transition is a really big step. Stage 2 to stage 3 or stage 4 to stage 5 is nothing in comparison. Feeling that you are backsliding in your faith from 3 to 4 is VERY common. In fact, most stage 3 people believe that a person transitioning into stage 4 is actually regressing in faith when in reality they are advancing. Furthermore, churches and external religious authority figures have a tendency to discourage advancement into stage 4 because at stage 4 you become your own authority about religious belief instead of relying on the church or the community of faith to give you authority.

That quote you made about "backsliding" just really struck true when I read it over again and I just wanted to give you reassurance that it is a natural feeling and you are not regressing, you are advancing and it just feels alien to you right now.

 

[BluePhantom]

We all can learn from each other, both lessons good and bad.

Phantom probably dissed me for me being wrong: unforgivable! Yeah, I am one of those guys who ask grace for my sins but too often demand good works from others for theirs.

My apologies to all. Thanks, BP, for being a good one and reminding me in a good way.

For the atheists and the hard core socons and all the rest, especially me let's try for 24 hours to treat others with grace.

It was something about my professional credentials. I remember I had posted something in my 'hello USMB' message about myself...just introducing myself and outlining who I was, my background, my education, and some of the things I had accomplished. I intended it innocently enough. I sincerely thought I was just introducing myself and saying "hi this is me and this is my background." I think it was Syrenn that had started talking to me first and then this guy, I really think it was you Jake but I could be wrong, just took whatever it was that I claimed in my 'hello USMB' post and just beat me like a drum for it because I could not prove that what I claimed about myself was true. BTW...if it was you...it WAS true. I know because I remember thinking 'how can I prove I am telling the truth without revealing stuff about who I am that I don't want floating freely on the internet'? I didn't trust USMB...I had only been there for like 3 hours and suddenly there was this maniac on my ass. I had no idea what to think, but Syrenn, bless her heart, told you, or whoever it was to back off and with tail between legs I entered the community suddenly realizing that I had a lot to learn about USMB.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You are smart to be distrustful of some on the Board. Shoot, I still get threatened. My apologies again, if it was me.

 

[BluePhantom]

You are smart to be distrustful of some on the Board. Shoot, I still get threatened. My apologies again, if it was me.

Shit that was years ago. I only recount the story because I find it so funny now in hindsight. The truth is, according to USMB culture, I was totally out of line by making a claim and not providing evidence to support it and then realizing that in order to prove the claim I would have to make revelations about myself I was not willing to make. It's all good. I learned quickly.

I know what you mean though about adversaries on the boards. There is one poster, and I won't mention who she is but anyone knowing the history would know immediately, with whom I have such a vitriolic relationship that there seems to be an unwritten rule between us that whoever posts first on a thread has effectively banned the other from posting on it. Whenever we get into a conversation one of us ends up getting suspended from USMB (usually her...cough, cough....). Now recently we actually posted on the same thread (she violated the unwritten rule) and we actually acknowledged each other's presence. And not only did we not immediately attempt to stab each other to death and dance about on the defeated corpse singing Hallelujah, we actually agreed on a point and then quickly and wisely departed each other's loathsome company. So perhaps there is hope for all of humanity.

 

[Immanuel]

You are smart to be distrustful of some on the Board. Shoot, I still get threatened. My apologies again, if it was me.

Shit that was years ago. I only recount the story because I find it so funny now in hindsight. The truth is, according to USMB culture, I was totally out of line by making a claim and not providing evidence to support it and then realizing that in order to prove the claim I would have to make revelations about myself I was not willing to make. It's all good. I learned quickly.

I know what you mean though about adversaries on the boards. There is one poster, and I won't mention who she is but anyone knowing the history would know immediately, with whom I have such a vitriolic relationship that there seems to be an unwritten rule between us that whoever posts first on a thread has effectively banned the other from posting on it. Whenever we get into a conversation one of us ends up getting suspended from USMB (usually her...cough, cough....). Now recently we actually posted on the same thread (she violated the unwritten rule) and we actually acknowledged each other's presence. And not only did we not immediately attempt to stab each other to death and dance about on the defeated corpse singing Hallelujah, we actually agreed on a point and then quickly and wisely departed each other's loathsome company. So perhaps there is hope for all of humanity.

First, thanks for all the information given in the posts over the last couple of days. Things have been difficult recently because so much of what is going on in the world involving the religious community have seemed so contradictory to the faith. When your faith teaches love and forgiveness and then you listen to the people who are supposedly authorities of your faith and they give such contradictory messages, well it does cause a crisis of faith.

As for your claim and providing evidence to support it, I find that funny as trying to get proof from anyone on this site is extremely difficult to say the least.

The histories of relationships on the board might make for a fabulous thread!

 

[onefour1]

I never got what I considered a reasonable explanation for all that brutality, suffering and then resurrection of the physical body of Jesus. If you can provide one, then please do. Happy Easter.

I can only share with you my own understanding. I am LDS and will give you my thoughts and feelings on the subject based on my faith.
First, I think it is important to understand that God, in his eternal kingdom, is a God of law and order. His kingdom is ruled by a celestial law that must be followed by the inhabitants. If the inhabitants are incapable of living this higher law, then perhaps they should be in another kingdom having a lesser law.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:22
22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

Those who are to inherit the kingdom of heaven should be required to live according to the law of that kingdom. If the kingdom of heaven were inhabited by thieves, liars, adulterers, etc., it would not be heaven at all. So in order to maintain the law God has said,

Doctrine and Covenants 132:8
8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.

Moses 6:57
57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.

God has made it so that those of like characters will be able to live together. Those who are not of like character, will be separated into differing kingdoms. Those who love God and seek to be like him will inherit the kingdom of God where they all obey a celestial law. So laws have been set to maintain the various kingdoms in the hereafter. The laws must be enforced or these kingdoms could not be maintained. But because there is a division God must be a just God in denying some entrance into his kingdom and allowing others. He must rule and reign according to justice in the laws he sets.

Another key ingredient in my understanding of the atonement is free will. God rules by giving his creations free will. All things follow and obey God because of the type of being God is. He is a God who loves his creations and seeks to bring to them the greatest amount of joy and happiness. He is also a God of justice and will mete out to all in fairness and honesty.
God is a being of complete free will. But he is a being of goodness as well. Nobody makes God do good. He does it of his own free will. It is his character that makes him choose good continually. And all creation knows this and follows him because they trust him and know that he will only seek after their happiness and welfare.

God wants his children to be like him. He wants them to learn to always choose the right. To choose goodness in and of themselves. You cannot force people to be like God because God is a being of free will. Those who are to become like him must also learn to choose good in and of themselves. If you were to force them to do good, they would not really be like him. Free will is essential to joy and happiness as well as learning to be more like God.

LDS believe that God does not create things ex nihilo or out of nothing. We believe he creates things out of eternally existent material. We also believe that God is a self-existent being and that his children too have an element of self-existence within them. Thus we believe that a part of man, the part that makes up man's intelligence and free will, is self-existent and was not created or made and neither indeed can be. For this reason God could not make man to be perfect but could only create man from already existing intelligence and matter. So in order to help man to increase in obtaining the attributes of God, it was necessary for God to teach man and to instruct him. This earth life became a school for man to learn right from wrong and to learn to choose good over evil.

The problem arises because there is an issue between justice and the love of God in raising imperfect souls to perfection. On the one hand, according to justice, no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom. Once man sins, he has broken the law and fallen short of the glory. According to the law of justice those who break the law cannot be allowed to be part of a kingdom where that law is held inviolate. If God were to ignore the law, then God would cease to be a God of justice and all his creations who honor him, would know that. Perhaps not being just would be a violation of God's own law and God would not be worthy of his own kingdom. So God, of a necessity, must be a just God.

So God, in his infinite wisdom and love devised a way for him to allow only the truly repentant sinners to be able to find entrance into his kingdom. He couldn't accomplish this of his own doing but needed an accomplice to carry out the plan of mercy. So he brought his plan to his firstborn son, who, upon hearing of it freely chose to take part in it. It was a plan brought about because God and his Son so loved his other children that they were, of their own free will, willing to make it happen. The plan was to send the Great Creator of all things to this earth to set the example for all by living a perfectly sinless life. Living a sinless life was absolutely critical to this plan. While on the earth Jesus would suffer pain to the extent of all sins of every person. This pain is described in scripture as follows:

Doctrine and covenants 19:16-19

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

It was essential that Jesus was a sinless sacrifice, a lamb without blemish. You see, a great injustice was created when Jesus, who did no sin, suffered and died. And the Father, being a just God would of necessity need to recompense Jesus for the suffering he unjustly suffered. He would also need to recompense Jesus to the extent of his suffering. Jesus' recompense was that he could forgive the sins. You see it still would be unjust to allow the unrepentant to enter his kingdom. But when all of God's creations witnessed what their creator was willing to do and the love he manifested for his fellow brethren, they were moved with compassion and the law of mercy was sustained throughout all God's creations. God was just in recompensing Jesus, and bringing about the law of mercy through his son Jesus Christ. Without this great sacrifice, justice would have kept the sinner out of the kingdom. It was not unjust to allow those who changed from sinning to not sinning into the kingdom because God needed to justly recompense the Christ and by giving him power to forgive the repentant sinner was the way to satisfy this demand of justice.

In this great act of love, God was able to be a God of love and mercy, and still be a God of justice, equity and truth. God loves us more than we know.

 

[MarathonMike]

I never got what I considered a reasonable explanation for all that brutality, suffering and then resurrection of the physical body of Jesus. If you can provide one, then please do. Happy Easter.

I can only share with you my own understanding. I am LDS and will give you my thoughts and feelings on the subject based on my faith.
First, I think it is important to understand that God, in his eternal kingdom, is a God of law and order. His kingdom is ruled by a celestial law that must be followed by the inhabitants. If the inhabitants are incapable of living this higher law, then perhaps they should be in another kingdom having a lesser law.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:22
22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

Those who are to inherit the kingdom of heaven should be required to live according to the law of that kingdom. If the kingdom of heaven were inhabited by thieves, liars, adulterers, etc., it would not be heaven at all. So in order to maintain the law God has said,

Doctrine and Covenants 132:8
8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.

Moses 6:57
57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.

God has made it so that those of like characters will be able to live together. Those who are not of like character, will be separated into differing kingdoms. Those who love God and seek to be like him will inherit the kingdom of God where they all obey a celestial law. So laws have been set to maintain the various kingdoms in the hereafter. The laws must be enforced or these kingdoms could not be maintained. But because there is a division God must be a just God in denying some entrance into his kingdom and allowing others. He must rule and reign according to justice in the laws he sets.

Another key ingredient in my understanding of the atonement is free will. God rules by giving his creations free will. All things follow and obey God because of the type of being God is. He is a God who loves his creations and seeks to bring to them the greatest amount of joy and happiness. He is also a God of justice and will mete out to all in fairness and honesty.
God is a being of complete free will. But he is a being of goodness as well. Nobody makes God do good. He does it of his own free will. It is his character that makes him choose good continually. And all creation knows this and follows him because they trust him and know that he will only seek after their happiness and welfare.

God wants his children to be like him. He wants them to learn to always choose the right. To choose goodness in and of themselves. You cannot force people to be like God because God is a being of free will. Those who are to become like him must also learn to choose good in and of themselves. If you were to force them to do good, they would not really be like him. Free will is essential to joy and happiness as well as learning to be more like God.

LDS believe that God does not create things ex nihilo or out of nothing. We believe he creates things out of eternally existent material. We also believe that God is a self-existent being and that his children too have an element of self-existence within them. Thus we believe that a part of man, the part that makes up man's intelligence and free will, is self-existent and was not created or made and neither indeed can be. For this reason God could not make man to be perfect but could only create man from already existing intelligence and matter. So in order to help man to increase in obtaining the attributes of God, it was necessary for God to teach man and to instruct him. This earth life became a school for man to learn right from wrong and to learn to choose good over evil.

The problem arises because there is an issue between justice and the love of God in raising imperfect souls to perfection. On the one hand, according to justice, no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom. Once man sins, he has broken the law and fallen short of the glory. According to the law of justice those who break the law cannot be allowed to be part of a kingdom where that law is held inviolate. If God were to ignore the law, then God would cease to be a God of justice and all his creations who honor him, would know that. Perhaps not being just would be a violation of God's own law and God would not be worthy of his own kingdom. So God, of a necessity, must be a just God.

So God, in his infinite wisdom and love devised a way for him to allow only the truly repentant sinners to be able to find entrance into his kingdom. He couldn't accomplish this of his own doing but needed an accomplice to carry out the plan of mercy. So he brought his plan to his firstborn son, who, upon hearing of it freely chose to take part in it. It was a plan brought about because God and his Son so loved his other children that they were, of their own free will, willing to make it happen. The plan was to send the Great Creator of all things to this earth to set the example for all by living a perfectly sinless life. Living a sinless life was absolutely critical to this plan. While on the earth Jesus would suffer pain to the extent of all sins of every person. This pain is described in scripture as follows:

Doctrine and covenants 19:16-19

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

It was essential that Jesus was a sinless sacrifice, a lamb without blemish. You see, a great injustice was created when Jesus, who did no sin, suffered and died. And the Father, being a just God would of necessity need to recompense Jesus for the suffering he unjustly suffered. He would also need to recompense Jesus to the extent of his suffering. Jesus' recompense was that he could forgive the sins of the repentant sinner. You see it still would be unjust to allow the unjust to enter his kingdom. But when all of God's creations witnessed what their creator was willing to do and the love he manifested for his fellow brethren, they were moved with compassion and the law of mercy was sustained throughout all God's creations.

In this great act of love, God was able to be a God of love and mercy, and still be a God of justice, equity and truth. God loves us more than we know.

Well I appreciate you taking the time to write all this. A lot to digest but I'll read it.

 

[Meriweather]

We Christians teach of the necessity of the atonement, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In your view, why was all this necessary? If God the Father is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving being, why couldn't he just forgive us if we repented? What was all the suffering for? What is the deep meaning, in your opinion, behind this great sacrifice? Why was it necessary?

I've asked myself, "What is the simplest explanation, what is the kernel?" Jesus' primary message is that sins are forgiven. We see from his acts (The Cleansing of the Temple) and words that "Sins are forgiven" was the theme of his ministry. Many Jews of that era were dirt poor, lived in poverty, while the rich grew even more wealthy. A good portion of Temple wealth centered around the practices and ceremonies for having one's sins forgiven.

Jesus was insisting sins are forgiven, repentance for the forgiveness of sins, even baptism for the forgiveness of sins--all as freely given as the air we breathe without ever having to choose between feeding one's children or having one's sins forgiven.

Imagine this idea beginning to take hold, the panic that began to build as those who made their living/gained wealth off of Temple profits saw that more and more people were willing to go along with the idea that they did not need to sacrifice to the Temple to have their sins forgiven.

Mystery novel enthusiasts will confirm that "following the money" is often holds the solution for who/why a crime was committed.

Jesus did not have unanimous backing and we hear him say a prophet is not welcome in his own country. He predicted for his message to take hold, he would first have to die. He would lay down his life for this message to be broadcast throughout the world.

I question whether Jesus had to die for our sins to be forgiven. My thought is that Jesus had to die for people to know and understand their sins are forgiven.

The Catholic Church continues to teach repentance for the forgiveness of sins, baptism for the forgiveness of sins. The Church continues to center itself around the practices of Christ where people can come (without money/without cost) to hear their and be assured their sins are forgiven.