What is your background/interest in the Middle East?

[P F Tinmore]

Actually, the history of what people inhabited which parts of the Holy Land is much more complex than it is made out to be here. Everybody seems to forget that before the age of modern nationalism (barely a hundred years old in the Middle East) most people were identified according to their religion, not according to their ethnic background.

Yes, exactly! I totally agree.

I find all of this obsession with Canaanites, Phoenicians and Philistines entirely irrelevent, and almost never discussed by people who are actually involved in this debate.

It's largely a red herring, and what happened 3,000 years ago nowhere near as crucial to any final settlement as what has happened in the 20th century.

I think, quite innocently, a lot of posters have got totally sidetracked by what happened in 0 Ad, and are totally cluesless as to the absolotely crucial events which took place 1899 - 1901 and 1926 - 1934.

Sure, a lot of people have come and gone over time, However, there is a core population who had stayed and put down roots. They are the ones who built the cities, towns, and villages. They developed the agricultural land. They built the factories and shops.

These are the people who were the normal inhabitants within the borders that were defined in 1922. They are the ones who have the universally recognized right to self determination without foreign intervention.

That is the basis of my beliefs. How can anyone disagree with that?

Well, I got a neg rep from Artevelde for this post. Anyone else want to chime in?

 

[Saigon]

Well, I got a neg rep from Artevelde for this post. Anyone else want to chime in?

I think Artevede is an excellent poster - he's intelligent, literate and fairly moderate.

But he seems to be having an off day today - first apparently claiming that Israel must be the legal government of the West Bank because they conquered it, and then claiming many countries construct buildings outside their recognised borders....and using the South Pole as an example.

Odd.

 

[Hossfly]

Yes, exactly! I totally agree.

I find all of this obsession with Canaanites, Phoenicians and Philistines entirely irrelevent, and almost never discussed by people who are actually involved in this debate.

It's largely a red herring, and what happened 3,000 years ago nowhere near as crucial to any final settlement as what has happened in the 20th century.

I think, quite innocently, a lot of posters have got totally sidetracked by what happened in 0 Ad, and are totally cluesless as to the absolotely crucial events which took place 1899 - 1901 and 1926 - 1934.

Sure, a lot of people have come and gone over time, However, there is a core population who had stayed and put down roots. They are the ones who built the cities, towns, and villages. They developed the agricultural land. They built the factories and shops.

These are the people who were the normal inhabitants within the borders that were defined in 1922. They are the ones who have the universally recognized right to self determination without foreign intervention.

That is the basis of my beliefs. How can anyone disagree with that?

Well, I got a neg rep from Artevelde for this post. Anyone else want to chime in?

One time I ate a dead frog.

 

[Artevelde]

Well, I got a neg rep from Artevelde for this post. Anyone else want to chime in?

I think Artevede is an excellent poster - he's intelligent, literate and fairly moderate.

But he seems to be having an off day today - first apparently claiming that Israel must be the legal government of the West Bank because they conquered it, and then claiming many countries construct buildings outside their recognised borders....and using the South Pole as an example.

Odd.

First of all, I never claimed Israel was the "legal government" of the West Bank. I stated a fact: that Israel currently exercises sovereign control over the West Bank and that the West Bank is not part of any other sovereign state. You really need to use words and terms more carefully.

Second, I did demonstrate (and not onlmy with the South Pole) that States do indeed construct all sort of infrastructure outside their territorial boundaries. It's a fact you have not been able to dispute.

You are also very naive to take at face value the lies of a pathological anti-Semite and racist like Tinmore.

 

[Artevelde]

Yes, exactly! I totally agree.

I find all of this obsession with Canaanites, Phoenicians and Philistines entirely irrelevent, and almost never discussed by people who are actually involved in this debate.

It's largely a red herring, and what happened 3,000 years ago nowhere near as crucial to any final settlement as what has happened in the 20th century.

I think, quite innocently, a lot of posters have got totally sidetracked by what happened in 0 Ad, and are totally cluesless as to the absolotely crucial events which took place 1899 - 1901 and 1926 - 1934.

Sure, a lot of people have come and gone over time, However, there is a core population who had stayed and put down roots. They are the ones who built the cities, towns, and villages. They developed the agricultural land. They built the factories and shops.

These are the people who were the normal inhabitants within the borders that were defined in 1922. They are the ones who have the universally recognized right to self determination without foreign intervention.

That is the basis of my beliefs. How can anyone disagree with that?

Well, I got a neg rep from Artevelde for this post. Anyone else want to chime in?

No, most people have given up on you as the hopeless racist liar that you are.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Sure, a lot of people have come and gone over time, However, there is a core population who had stayed and put down roots. They are the ones who built the cities, towns, and villages. They developed the agricultural land. They built the factories and shops.

These are the people who were the normal inhabitants within the borders that were defined in 1922. They are the ones who have the universally recognized right to self determination without foreign intervention.

That is the basis of my beliefs. How can anyone disagree with that?

Well, I got a neg rep from Artevelde for this post. Anyone else want to chime in?

No, most people have given up on you as the hopeless racist liar that you are.

Gee, what did I ever say that was racist?

 

[Hossfly]

Well, I got a neg rep from Artevelde for this post. Anyone else want to chime in?

No, most people have given up on you as the hopeless racist liar that you are.

Gee, what did I ever say that was racist?

In a recent thread you implied 'We are all Palestinians now.' Yes you did. Boy, was that ever a low blow.

 

[P F Tinmore]

No, most people have given up on you as the hopeless racist liar that you are.

Gee, what did I ever say that was racist?

In a recent thread you implied 'We are all Palestinians now.' Yes you did. Boy, was that ever a low blow.

Do you have a link to that?

 

[Hossfly]

Gee, what did I ever say that was racist?

In a recent thread you implied 'We are all Palestinians now.' Yes you did. Boy, was that ever a low blow.

Do you have a link to that?

Of course not. Use your Googler and sense of humor.

 

[P F Tinmore]

In a recent thread you implied 'We are all Palestinians now.' Yes you did. Boy, was that ever a low blow.

Do you have a link to that?

Of course not. Use your Googler and sense of humor.

Of course not.

 

[Roudy]

Well, I got a neg rep from Artevelde for this post. Anyone else want to chime in?

No, most people have given up on you as the hopeless racist liar that you are.

Gee, what did I ever say that was racist?

What have you said that was not either an outright lie or racist?

 

[P F Tinmore]

No, most people have given up on you as the hopeless racist liar that you are.

Gee, what did I ever say that was racist?

What have you said that was not either an outright lie or racist?

Nice dodge.

 

[Roudy]

No, most people have given up on you as the hopeless racist liar that you are.

Gee, what did I ever say that was racist?

In a recent thread you implied 'We are all Palestinians now.' Yes you did. Boy, was that ever a low blow.

Just imagine how low on the totem pole it is that Arabs look down upon the Palestinans as trouble making criminal "trash" that none of them want any part of.

Definitely an insult.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Gee, what did I ever say that was racist?

In a recent thread you implied 'We are all Palestinians now.' Yes you did. Boy, was that ever a low blow.

Just imagine how low on the totem pole it is that Arabs look down upon the Palestinans as trouble making criminal "trash" that none of them want any part of.

Definitely an insult.

Still no link?

 

[Roudy]

In a recent thread you implied 'We are all Palestinians now.' Yes you did. Boy, was that ever a low blow.

Just imagine how low on the totem pole it is that Arabs look down upon the Palestinans as trouble making criminal "trash" that none of them want any part of.

Definitely an insult.

Still no link?

Link for what? Non of the Arab countries will issue long term visas to Palestinians or take them in. That is a fact. Palestinians sided with Sadam Hussein when he invaded Kuwait, which caused the Kuwaitis the kick their treasonous asses out when it was recaptured. Palestinians helped the slaughter of Christian Lebanese. The Iranian govt has in seceral instances including the 1979 portests, imported Palestinian thugs to brutalize, kill, and torture it's own cities and protesters and citizens. And the Iranian govt and Palestinians are currently helping the Syrians kill and torture it's own people. Palestine = Terror central.

Nobody wants these trouble making terrorists. Not even their own Arab brothers. Which begs the question, why should Israel?

 

[RoccoR]

Roudy, et al,

Who said anything about "hating Jews."

Yeah, remember the Liberty but not 9-11, the marine barracks, the Cole bombing, Pan Am flight 103. Another obsessed Jew hater.

(COMMENT)

The USS Liberty was a direct assault by the Israelis on a US Naval Vessel. That is completely different from:

• New York attack by Al-Qaeda on 911.
• A splinter group of Hezbollah carried out the attack against the Marine Barracks in 1983. It was in retaliation for America's support for Israel, and who many Palestinians believed allowed Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia to massacre civilians in the refuge camps of Sabra and Shatila.
• The Pan Am Flight 103 bombing was orchestrated by Abdel Baset Ali al-Megrahi (Tripoli).

I suppose that anyone that is not in love with the Israelis is automatically a"Jew Hater." That is not the case.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

Saigon, Lipush, et al,

There is a dispute over the meaning of UNSC Res 242 requirement: "Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict." and the phrase: "termination of all claims or states of belligerency."
The Meaning of Resolution 242

There is no question that Israel belongs to the Jews. T.

I totally agree - I don't think there is any question about that either.

But I don't consider the West Bank to be a part of Israel - I consider it to belong to Palestinians as much as Israel belongs to Israelis.

(COMMENT)

The Israelis have already established settlements; something they should not have done. It is not likely that in areas where there are settlements, that the Israelis will give that up; and that will perpetuate the conflict.

At some point, Israel is going to have to Annex the Occupied Territories; if it entends to keep it. But that creates a whole new set of issues; both legal and domestic.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Saigon]

Rocco -

Good points, and might I say that it is nice to see someone posting here who has clearly studied the conflict.

I don't expect Israel to give up most settlements, but this is something I believe most Palestinians understand as well. The Wall does effectively annex land, and what it is within that will likely be the border in future.

This means Palestine will get, at most, around 88% of the West Bank, but the remaining 12% could be traded. There is land south of Jericho which Israel could swap for land around Gilo, for instance.

It is not a solution that will thrill Palestinians, but it is practical.

 

[docmauser1]

It is not a solution that will thrill Palestinians, but it is practical.

A coordinated international humaniatarian effort of resettling palistanians is the solution, of course, and a thrilling one too!

 

[docmauser1]

The Israelis have already established settlements;

Jews have to live somewhere too, not just arab settlers, of course.

something they should not have done.

How so?

It is not likely that in areas where there are settlements, that the Israelis will give that up; and that will perpetuate the conflict.

Of course! Arab settlers and squatters, ie. palistanians, will want it all intact, as they do now. No news, really.

At some point, Israel is going to have to Annex the Occupied Territories;

We like bloviating about the resolution 242 without reading it, don't we? Figures.