What is the truth about Ukraine?

[TheGreatGatsby]

Seriously....I would like for posters to post real thoughts and analysis that hopefully goes beyond Obama this and Putin that fray. Frankly, I think the USA and Russia don't have good intentions and they have at least some significant part in all this. But I'm wondering what exactly is going on in Ukraine for it to have degenerated as it has. I also am interested in knowing what their prospects are going forward. Is a dictator trying to take-over? Are the people fighting for their own democracy? Etc.... I really haven't come across anything in depth besides shallow stories of Obama and Putin playing Texas Hold Em and who'll blink first. My feeling is that's nothing but sensationalist journalism in play...and I'd like to know the truth since that is what shall really set people free (that's just not cliche after all).

 

[Katzndogz]

The truth is Putin won. He gets Crimea, no sanctions, no freezing assets. Nothing. Total capitulation. But we should have always known it was going to end this way. Maybe obama finally realized that his supply of caviar was threatened.

With few exceptions Ukranians think of themselves as Russian. That's why they elected a pro Russian president. Not only do they think of themselves as Russian but they don't want closer ties to the EU and be forced to endure EU style social policies. It's not freedom to them just someone else's tyranny.

No matter what the west did it was never going to force these people to give up their culture and religion. It was always a non starter.

I am sure that Democrats will spin this as a resounding obama victory. He kept Ukraine safe by securing Putin's agreement not to advance beyond Crimea. As if even that had a smidgen of truth.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

I have a hard time believing that Ukraine would have made their own country in the first place if they were so caught up on identifying as Russian. And they don't have to give-up their autonomy to get out of the EU.

Why is the west allegedly trying to make Ukraine give up their culture and religion? They simply don't have that much power to do so.

 

[TheOldSchool]

The truth is Putin won. He gets Crimea, no sanctions, no freezing assets. Nothing. Total capitulation. But we should have always known it was going to end this way. Maybe obama finally realized that his supply of caviar was threatened.

With few exceptions Ukranians think of themselves as Russian. That's why they elected a pro Russian president. Not only do they think of themselves as Russian but they don't want closer ties to the EU and be forced to endure EU style social policies. It's not freedom to them just someone else's tyranny.

No matter what the west did it was never going to force these people to give up their culture and religion. It was always a non starter.

I am sure that Democrats will spin this as a resounding obama victory. He kept Ukraine safe by securing Putin's agreement not to advance beyond Crimea. As if even that had a smidgen of truth.

So you're saying what exactly? We should have attacked?

 

[JoeB131]

The bottom line of this is that when the USSR broke up, the Ukraine was ill-prepared for independence.

Half the population is ethnically Russian, but the borders of the Ukraine were based no on ethnicity, but on adminstrative divisions.

Now, the European Union tried to entice the Ukraine into it, because clearly, the EU has done such a bang-up job managing the economies of its member nations... You know. Like Greece.

Putin made Ukraine a better offer, and the legitimately elected leader of the Ukraine accepted it. Then protestors got upset he took a better deal. So he agreed to early elections and other concessions, but they smelled weakness and chased him out of town.

We should not be getting involved.

 

[Geaux4it]

The Ukraine is a bellwether relative to the resurgence of the old Soviet empire. Ukraine is like Canada relative to proximity so even Captain Obvious can see that western presence so close to its border is not good. I see this unfolding as follows

Putin annexed Crimea
Elections concur
Putin moves into Eastern Ukraine
Obama threatens sanctions
Putin continues to move into all areas of the Ukraine and the rest is history

It would be fine with me if Obama just lets Putin have Ukraine. But I'm afraid it doesn't stop here. Putin moves into Poland and it has become the precision approach to the end mean

-Geaux

 

[JoeB131]

Most of you wingnuts couldn't have found Ukraine on a map two months ago...

But today it adds fuel to your ever burning "I hate Obama" fire.

 

[Decus]

What are the drivers behind Putin's gambit in Ukraine?

Russian economy, society and the Putin solution:

Russia cannot compete globally. Besides military hardware the vast majority of Russia's exports are petroleum related products and raw materials.

OEC: Russia (RUS) Profile of Exports, Imports and Trade Partners

Petroleum products and raw materials are the major source of revenues for Russia but all these sectors are controlled by extremely wealthy oligarchs.

“Running the biggest raw-material companies in Russia requires political influence, and the oligarchs have less clout than before. The Russian government also wants to lessen the country’s dependence on oil, gas, and metals, which last year accounted for the vast majority of Russia’s exports.”

Russia's Oligarchs Ditch Oil and Gold to Pile Up Cash - Businessweek

Lessening dependence export of petroleum products and raw materials is not possible at present because Russian manufacturing simply cannot compete:

“The equipment of companies also leaves much to be desired, the production fund is outdated and does not allow to work at full capacity. Seventy million rubles will be allocated for the purchase of new machines. Patriotism and merits of old Soviet times is not enough to become a leader.”

Can Russia beat Chinese consumer goods? - English pravda.ru

Corruption at every level will make it difficult or even impossible for Russia to advance and to improve their competitiveness.

“In a nice paired comparison, the World Bank estimates that it costs three to six times more to build a road on the Russian side of the border than on the Finnish side despite the similarities in climate. Many argue that given this pervasiveness of bribery, Russia has developed a culture of corruption that has made bribe-giving and bribe-taking broadly accepted.”

The culture of corruption: Russians pay, but they don?t like it

“Corruption results in the “hidden sector” taking an increasing share of the overall economy, which means reduced tax collections and budgetary problems (which, in turn, cause social problems.) Corruption also leads to less efficient competition: the enterprises that succeed are not necessarily those that are the most effective, but those that have agreements with officials (based on bribes or personal influence) and thereby gain certain favors and advantages.”

Corruption in Russia as a Business

Putin's solution to Russia's economic woes and geopolitical ambitions was to create a Eurasian Economic Union.

“At a summit in Moscow on Christmas Eve, members of the founding troika reaffirmed their intention to create a Eurasian Economic Union by 2015. The new body will mimic the EU’s mantra of integration, as well as copying the outlines of its institutional architecture.”

“But closer integration is not a sure path to modernisation. Authoritarian regimes are not interested in transparency or the rule of law, the essential prerequisites of economic progress. Nor does it serve the Kremlin’s purposes – which are primarily geopolitical, rather than economic – to insist on such reforms.”

“Indeed, Mr Putin’s plan would not have come this far had it not been underwritten by the financial might of the Russian state. According to some analysts, support for the Lukashenko regime costs Russia between $7bn and $12bn annually. Periodic threats from the Belarusian president to withdraw from the Eurasian project are usually met with further Russian largesse.”

“President Almazbek Atambayev of Kyrgyzstan has also proved willing to use blackmail, demanding a $200m loan from Moscow in addition to trade and economic preferences. When he did not get what he wanted, Mr Atambayev postponed his country’s entry into the Eurasian Union.”

“The Eurasian project is a mirage of a post-Soviet archipelago in which authoritarian leaders use each other to preserve their power. It may last a little longer. But before long, the sun will set on Mr Putin’s imperial ambitions.”

Putin?s attempt to recreate the Soviet empire is futile - FT.com

 

[Decus]

Why did Putin invade Crimea?

Speaking of Putin's ambition:

“His project for his third term as President is to gather in as many of his neighbors as he can to form a new Eurasian Union. Ukraine is the key to that project. And Crimea is the key to Ukraine.”

Opinion: Putin's real endgame and what the West can't do - CNN.com

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[Decus]

The Eurasian Union could have been used to punish western Ukraine. This was back in December 2013:

"Russian and Ukrainian government officials are preparing to sign a series of far-reaching economic agreements on December 17, including lifting all bans on the import of Ukrainian foodstuffs and agricultural products into Russia. The Moscow diplomatic rumour mill has it that there is a caveat: Produce from Ukraine's five western regions – the hotbed of Ukrainian nationalism spearheading the protests – will be denied access to the Russian market."

How far will Russia go to get Ukraine in its Eurasian Union | Russia & India Report

.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Seriously....I would like for posters to post real thoughts and analysis that hopefully goes beyond Obama this and Putin that fray. Frankly, I think the USA and Russia don't have good intentions and they have at least some significant part in all this. But I'm wondering what exactly is going on in Ukraine for it to have degenerated as it has. I also am interested in knowing what their prospects are going forward. Is a dictator trying to take-over? Are the people fighting for their own democracy? Etc.... I really haven't come across anything in depth besides shallow stories of Obama and Putin playing Texas Hold Em and who'll blink first. My feeling is that's nothing but sensationalist journalism in play...and I'd like to know the truth since that is what shall really set people free (that's just not cliche after all).

After the Iraq 'WMD' bullshit leading up to the war, I tend to discount anything US news reports about impending foreign threats. I'd sooner trust Al-Jazeera English at this point. So long as US news just relays whatever the current administration said, it isn't useful for accurate intelligence. And if we have to wait until years after things have settled down for the truth, looking for it before isn't likely to be fruitful.

Thus, my current opinion of Ukraine is 'they used to be part of the Soviet Union. if Russia wants to reform some kind of USSR let them.' Isn't our business unless we'd welcome Russia intervening in our foreign affairs. Not like Ukraine is considering becomming the 51st US state. If anything it's an EU problem.

 

[SteadyMercury]

With few exceptions Ukranians think of themselves as Russian. That's why they elected a pro Russian president. Not only do they think of themselves as Russian but they don't want closer ties to the EU and be forced to endure EU style social policies.

Your now legendary ability to make up whatever you want and decide it is a fact continues to amaze. "Few exceptions" as evidenced by the nonstop sea or protesters in Kiev when they tried to lead towards Russia?

 

[Decus]

From November 2013:

""The Eurasian Union is a very important project for Putin. Without Ukraine, he will lose all enthusiasm for it," said Gleb Pavlovsky, a former Kremlin spin doctor who has also worked in Ukraine. "Without Ukraine, Putin's project is impossible.""

Why aren't all countries rushing to the Eurasian Union? Eurasian Union is a good deal for Russia but not other members:

“The five former Soviet republics in Central Asia have increased trade with China, despite Moscow's attempts to build relations in the region. A World Bank report last year concluded that Russia had gained more from the customs union than Belarus and Kazakhstan because the tie-up had involved these countries accepting higher Russian import tariffs.”

Ukraine holds key to Putin's dream of a new union | Reuters

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[MisterBeale]

I thought this was a pretty good summation. On top of that, this guy encourages you to follow up, check his sources and his links. I had heard much of what he had referred to, and the rumored phone calls that were recorded, but I couldn't find them. It was refreshing to hear them here and to understand, that YES, the US is at fault for trying to once again meddle in things that are none of our business.

If the dollar tanks and WWIII breaks out, at least I know we have no one to blame but our own out of control psychopathic elites. This is not partisan, they are all arrogant, greedy, meddlesome pricks, on the left, and on the right. It makes no difference. They are all the same.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWkfpGCAAuw#t=606]Ukraine Crisis - What You're Not Being Told - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Decus]

Forget the Russian propaganda, Putin is fighting for his life:

"Seen in this light, recent events in Ukraine look like a manifestation of Russia’s weakness, rather than of its strength. Mr Yanukovych’s repressive, corrupt government is drifting ever closer to Mr Putin’s, which it increasingly resembles; but many Ukrainians do not want to go any farther down that road. That is one of the reasons why Ukraine matters so much to Mr Putin. It is not just that without it, his vaunted Eurasian Union—a sort of Soviet Union-lite—would lose its point: it is also that, if Ukrainians succeed in rejecting the Putin-Yanukovych model, and set their country back on a democratic European path, they might inspire Russians to do the same."

Russia and the world: The triumph of Vladimir Putin | The Economist

.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Most of you wingnuts couldn't have found Ukraine on a map two months ago...

But today it adds fuel to your ever burning "I hate Obama" fire.

You realize that nobody even was going off on Obama at any point in this thread when you wrote this? I think you should take your hackery somewhere else.

 

[Steinlight]

Looks like the Krauts were right all those years ago. Once we beat them in WW2, they said Soviet victory over the West was inevitable. The Soviet Union may have collapsed, but the Russian Federation has risen in it's place and is on pace to overrun the declining and weakening West(USA and EU). Crimea will be the first of many places that Russia establishes it's supremacy.

 

[MisterBeale]

USA declares war on democracy

In Ukraine, Venezuela, and Thailand, the US is spending billions of dollars to unconstitutionally eject democratically-elected governments. In Palestine, the US has been trying to overthrow the democratically-elected Hamas government ever since it came to power. In Egypt, the US – under Zionist pressure – recently overthrew the only genuinely democratic government in 5,000 years of recorded history. In Syria, the US insists that the people must not be given the opportunity to re-elect Assad, no matter how many international observers and safeguards ensure honest elections. And in Turkey, the US is undermining the democratically-elected Prime Minister Erdogan in favor of CIA puppet Fethullah Gulen.

Taking the long view, the US is working patiently to destroy democracy in Iran, Russia, and Latin America.

Why does the US government hate democracy?

Because the international bankers who own the US government and run the US empire cannot always buy enough votes to impose their will on every country. So democracy is fine – as long as voters elect the New World Order candidate. But if they vote for a candidate who doesn't suit the oligarchs, get ready for a coup!

The banksters will overthrow any government that stands up to them – even in the USA. The “termination with extreme prejudice” of the presidency of John F. Kennedy sent a message to all future US presidents.

Mayer Rothschild famously said “Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes its laws." But that was an exaggeration. The New World Order banksters seek to overthrow democratically-elected governments all over the world precisely because they DO care who makes and enforces the laws.

The NWO banksters are destroying Ukraine as a geostrategic move against Russia, where Putin has reined in the Russian-Zionist oligarchs and put a major roadblock in the path of the banksters' world government project. Yes, Ukrainian President Yanukovich won a free and fair democratic election. But democracy means nothing to the psychopathic pharaohs of finance and their Neocon hired guns.

http://presstv.com/detail/2014/02/26/352353/usa-declares-war-on-democracy/

 

[auditor0007]

The truth is Putin won. He gets Crimea, no sanctions, no freezing assets. Nothing. Total capitulation. But we should have always known it was going to end this way. Maybe obama finally realized that his supply of caviar was threatened.

With few exceptions Ukranians think of themselves as Russian. That's why they elected a pro Russian president. Not only do they think of themselves as Russian but they don't want closer ties to the EU and be forced to endure EU style social policies. It's not freedom to them just someone else's tyranny.

No matter what the west did it was never going to force these people to give up their culture and religion. It was always a non starter.

I am sure that Democrats will spin this as a resounding obama victory. He kept Ukraine safe by securing Putin's agreement not to advance beyond Crimea. As if even that had a smidgen of truth.

You are a bit misinformed. The Ukraine is split almost evenly between Russian speaking people and non-Russian speaking people. Those who speak Russian have closer ties and allegiances to Russia while the rest do not. The problem with Putin trying to take over is that his excuse is just that, and excuse. At no point were Russian speaking Ukrainians threatened, nor was Russia's military base at risk. Putin just used this as an excuse to take back land he feels belongs to the "empire".

While I in no way support going into Ukraine to start another war, something that seems to be suggested by a number of people, I do believe we should begin to establish military basis in other former Soviet bloc countries that wish us to do so. I would start with Poland. This would be a slap in the face to Putin and there is nothing he could do about it. Yes, it would escalate tensions, but the real pressure would then lie in Putin's court. I'm not so certain Russians want another cold war. The definitely cannot afford one.

 

[auditor0007]

The Ukraine is a bellwether relative to the resurgence of the old Soviet empire. Ukraine is like Canada relative to proximity so even Captain Obvious can see that western presence so close to its border is not good. I see this unfolding as follows

Putin annexed Crimea
Elections concur
Putin moves into Eastern Ukraine
Obama threatens sanctions
Putin continues to move into all areas of the Ukraine and the rest is history

It would be fine with me if Obama just lets Putin have Ukraine. But I'm afraid it doesn't stop here. Putin moves into Poland and it has become the precision approach to the end mean

-Geaux

That is why our next move should be to offer military bases to Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary, and any other former Soviet bloc countries that so wish our support. Obviously we cannot just place military bases within these countries if they do not want us to, but I do believe we can sell many of them on the idea that Putin is now a true threat to their sovereignty, and having us there might be beneficial to them in the long run. I'm not sure Obama has it in him to follow this path, but to me it does make the most sense.