What is the goal of capitalism?

[Mexicano]

nothing semantic about it,,

property rights are inherent and its the governments job to protect it not grant it,, just like other rights stated in the constitution,,

if you have regulations thats not free market thats government controlled capitalism,,, theres a difference,,

I have tried to address each of your points directly,, you have ignored every point I have made and just repeat the same garbage,,

Nothing is inherent. All rights, including those stated in the Constitution, are man-made constructs.
That includes voting, which for most of US history banned women from voting.

I have not ignored them , we simply have a different framework.
For some reason you think property rights are inherent. Why? What's so special about them?
I could equally argue that access to water and food should be inherent rights, even more so. You can leave without any property, but without food and water you are dead.

 

[Mexicano]

That is a problem of weak governance, NOT capitalism or any other economic model.




No, it requires effective and efficient regulation, but NOT protection.




Because it is by far the productive economic model in the history of mankind. It produces far more wealth and rises the standard of living in so many ways. Over the past 200 years or so, mankind has made enormous advances in every possible way to the betterment of everyone around the world, and by far the primary reason or cause for that is capitalism.

There are many variations of capitalism, not all of them are successful.
For example, Haiti is fully capitalist and the poorest country of the Americas.
Then we have the case of China, a dictatorship by western standards ( although they have local elections from a single party) , where 40% of the economy is run by the State. The case can be made that it has been the most successful economy in human history.

 

[progressive hunter]

Nothing is inherent. All rights, including those stated in the Constitution, are man-made constructs.
That includes voting, which for most of US history banned women from voting.

I have not ignored them , we simply have a different framework.
For some reason you think property rights are inherent. Why? What's so special about them?
I could equally argue that access to water and food should be inherent rights, even more so. You can leave without any property, but without food and water you are dead.

voting isnt a right,, thats why we have laws to allow it,,

anytime you see voting as a right like with women or blacks is to make sure everyone is equal as stated by "ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL" thats the right being protected not voting,,

its obvious you are a person that doesnt understand or respect rights and individual liberty nor understand the differences in capitalism and what they mean,,,

 

[progressive hunter]

There are many variations of capitalism, not all of them are successful.
For example, Haiti is fully capitalist and the poorest country of the Americas.
Then we have the case of China, a dictatorship by western standards ( although they have local elections from a single party) , where 40% of the economy is run by the State. The case can be made that it has been the most successful economy in human history.

free market is the one thats stood the test of time,,

all others end with the governments that tried top control them,,

 

[Mexicano]

voting isnt a right,, thats why we have laws to allow it,,

anytime you see voting as a right like with women or blacks is to make sure everyone is equal as stated by "ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL" thats the right being protected not voting,,

its obvious you are a person that doesnt understand or respect rights and individual liberty nor understand the differences in capitalism and what they mean,,,

That is not a right, that would be a principle
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator"
Principle: a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.
After the principle is stated, the "unalienable Rights" are enumerated:
"... with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

Notice the absence of property rights.
... and the quagmire that the "pursuit of happiness" implies. Can you be happy if you are starving or lack the minimum amount of water? I am sure there are drugs that can pull the trick ( starving but happy).
And a very special right:
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government.

 

[progressive hunter]

That is not a right, that would be a principle
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator"
Principle: a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.
After the principle is stated, the "unalienable Rights" are enumerated:
"... with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

Notice the absence of property rights.
... and the quagmire that the "pursuit of happiness" implies. Can you be happy if you are starving or lack the minimum amount of water? I am sure there are drugs that can pull the trick ( starving but happy).
And a very special right:
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government.

you left out the 14th amendment that codifies the phrase,,

equal treatment under the law is a human right,,, not voting,,

voting is also creation of government through necessity,,

 

[task0778]

There are many variations of capitalism, not all of them are successful.
For example, Haiti is fully capitalist and the poorest country of the Americas.
Then we have the case of China, a dictatorship by western standards ( although they have local elections from a single party) , where 40% of the economy is run by the State. The case can be made that it has been the most successful economy in human history.

Haiti's economic problems have nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with piss-poor government that is rife with corruption. And if anyone believes that China is the most successful economy in human history then they are sadly and greatly mistaken.

 

[themirrorthief]

This is just a philosophical question. Is there a goal for capitalism at all? Is it to maximize personal liberty or production? or is it to maximize well being?

it is to put food on the table instead of begging for it

 

[BackAgain]

I don’t know that capitalism has to have any “goal.” It is a philosophically premised economic political theory. But in its purest philosophical state, it need not have a goal beyond being the method by which people can elevate their lot in life in a most logical manner — to their benefit and to the benefit of society.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Yeah, I have a post graduate degree and retired at age 57 on the Safety Retirement. Did you retire on the sales of drugs, and it was me and those who I supervised arrested you and now is in prison or on parole?

Me sell drugs?
No way in hell would I sell drugs,I found out early on that making money and paying for your own weed was far less stressful.
I did get a DUI when I was 23 but thats the extent of my criminal career.
For someone with a Postgraduate degree you'd think you'd be able to spell postgraduate.....Just sayin.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

prove it??

He cant even spell postgraduate so it leaves one to wonder.....

 

[Mexicano]

you left out the 14th amendment that codifies the phrase,,

equal treatment under the law is a human right,,, not voting,,

voting is also creation of government through necessity,,

Well, that was the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.
But the distinctions stand nevertheless: "all men are created equal" is a principle
"Equal treatment under the law" is a right
Now, if you go into the Declaration of human rights you will find a lot more rights stated in the document:

Article 3 : life, liberty and security of person.
Article 4 : No one shall be held in slavery
Article 14 : Everyone has the right to freedom of movement.
Article 16 : right to marry and to found a family
Article 17 : right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
Article 22 : right to social security and is entitled to realization
Article 23 : Everyone has the right to work,
Article 24 : right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours
Article 25 : right to education
Article 27 : the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community.
As I said "rights" are a human creation based on principles both of them vary through history. They form a framework under which economic systems work. There's nothing inherent about property rights, they are just part of the framework capitalism needs to operate.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights | United Nations

A milestone document in the history of human rights, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights set out, for the first time, fundamental human rights to be universally protected. It has been translated into over 500 languages.

www.un.org

 

[progressive hunter]

Well, that was the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.
But the distinctions stand nevertheless: "all men are created equal" is a principle
"Equal treatment under the law" is a right
Now, if you go into the Declaration of human rights you will find a lot more rights stated in the document:

Article 3 : life, liberty and security of person.
Article 4 : No one shall be held in slavery
Article 14 : Everyone has the right to freedom of movement.
Article 16 : right to marry and to found a family
Article 17 : right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
Article 22 : right to social security and is entitled to realization
Article 23 : Everyone has the right to work,
Article 24 : right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours
Article 25 : right to education
Article 27 : the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community.
As I said "rights" are a human creation based on principles both of them vary through history. They form a framework under which economic systems work. There's nothing inherent about property rights, they are just part of the framework capitalism needs to operate.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights | United Nations

A milestone document in the history of human rights, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights set out, for the first time, fundamental human rights to be universally protected. It has been translated into over 500 languages.

www.un.org

the 14th amendment is in the constitution you stupid fuck,,,

those are recognized rights the government is expected to protect not grant,,,

we were born with those,,,

 

[Mexicano]

Haiti's economic problems have nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with piss-poor government that is rife with corruption. And if anyone believes that China is the most successful economy in human history then they are sadly and greatly mistaken.

Well, that's an interesting point. This means the economic system is not the most important factor that determines the economic success of a country. That also implies that, to a certain extent the Chinese government is an efficient actor ( else China would be as poor as Haiti or Brazil).

I could add to the list some other non-human factors:
- temperate weather
- adequate rainfall
- access to the sea
- plentiful natural resources ( oil, arable land, rivers)

 

[Mexicano]

the 14th amendment is in the constitution you stupid fuck,,,

those are recognized rights the government is expected to protect not grant,,,

we were born with those,,,

Oh, stop your childish behavior... insulting other members in forums is not polite.

I was stating that I was analyzing the Declaration of Independence where the principle "All men are created equal" is stated, and not the Constitution, where the principle "all men are created equal" is not mentioned at all.

Regarding those other rights, yes, you are born with the constitutional rights granted by the constitution during your lifetime.... At some point of time no man had the right to "manufacture, sale or transport" liquors within the United States... no free market, no market at all.

 

[progressive hunter]

Oh, stop your childish behavior... insulting other members in forums is not polite.

I was stating that I was analyzing the Declaration of Independence where the principle "All men are created equal" is stated, and not the Constitution, where the principle "all men are created equal" is not mentioned at all.

Regarding those other rights, yes, you are born with the constitutional rights granted by the constitution during your lifetime.... At some point of time no man had the right to "manufacture, sale or transport" liquors within the United States... no free market, no market at all.

and again you ignored where I said the 14th amendment is why voting rights were included,,,

and no the government/constitution doesnt grant rights they protect them,,,


I guess you missed this part when you read the declaration of independence,, funny since its the next words from what you read,,,

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --


not seeing where that says government/constitution grants rights,, in fact its specific we are endowed with them and the government secures those,, that means they protect them not grant them,,

why are you being such a stupid dishonest piece of shit???

 

[task0778]

This means the economic system is not the most important factor that determines the economic success of a country.

No, the economic model employed by a society could be the most important determinate to economic success, but it is not guaranteed nor is it the ONLY important factor. As we see in Haiti and other places, a capitalistic economy can still be a disaster if the governance is totally corrupt. And how does one define economic success? GDP? Standard of living? Economic freedom?

Where on Earth are there any successful economies that do not employ capitalism to some degree? I submit that the most successful economies are the ones that are capitalistic and to the highest degree do not allow the gov't to screw it up. And the least successful are the ones with very bad gov'ts that totally control everything.

That also implies that, to a certain extent the Chinese government is an efficient actor ( else China would be as poor as Haiti or Brazil).

Yes, they are efficient, gov't intervention and control is largely absent from what it was under the socialist regimes and policies some 30 years ago. They are far more capitalistic than they once were, and reforms in gov't and their society has paid dividends. But they are also a very repressive gov't that tightly controls civil liberties and rights, and I doubt their average standard of living approaches our own.

 

[Blues Man]

privately owned,, corporations are creations of government

Not really

They are governed by laws but were not "created" by government.

 

[Blues Man]

There are power imbalances imbued in capitalism.
The government is strongly influenced by lobbying groups and special interest groups.

Capitalism needs state protection to effectively exist ( just as any other economic system).
But the above is beyond the matter: why pursue the existence of a capitalist economic system?

You think a socialist government has no power imbalances?

All societies need laws to exist no matter what economic system is in place.

 

[sparky]

And if anyone believes that China is the most successful economy in human history then they are sadly and greatly mistaken.

The economic growth rate of China in 1978-2019 is the fastest in a major economy in human history. Between 1978 and 2017 China's economy expanded at an annual average 9.5% growth rate, growing in size almost 35 times.

~S~