What is life like where you live ????

[NoNukes]

lived in the US for 45 years and Ireland for 25 years. We are freer over here. I would say the evidence backs ME up

Can you give some examples of this greater freedom?

You can have whatever political beliefs you want without being attacked for them.

Maybe that is because people in the country you live in are more politically indifferent and their society is not so politically polarised as in the US. But again, Ireland is too small to compare it with the US as a whole.

That does not change how things are in the US. Or which country you have more freedom. Also here sensitive political issues such as abortion are voted on by the people and we get to speak out by voting. The will of the people becomes law.

 

[forkup]

lived in the US for 45 years and Ireland for 25 years. We are freer over here. I would say the evidence backs ME up

Can you give some examples of this greater freedom?

I can't speak for Nonukes but I'm Belgian (my wife's American) and some of those freedoms include in my case. The ability to send my kid to any school I like (no school districts). The freedom to have access to high-quality healthcare regardless of my financial situation. The freedom to send my kid to college without them taking on crippling debt, or me having to save for it my entire life. In general, I have found that I have access to services that would require an American to be very wealthy indeed in order for them to afford it. And because they're available to almost the entire population it gives us freedom of financial constraints for those services.

The price of these freedoms is a tax rate that would make you blanch.

I see. Regarding the freedom to have universal healthcare and education, there are two opposing points of view.

One of them is to have these things 'free' being financed by the state at the cost of taxpayers.

Another one is to have these things being paid by people themselves directly or through various funds (insurance companies, as in the case with healthcare).

What is better? Who knows. The both ways have pros and cons.

I don't think determining what is best is all that complicated. Either you go by what is cheaper, you go by what makes it the most available, or you go by what gives you the highest quality. I don't see any but those 3 options.

In the case of healthcare, I can say without any reservation that Belgium beats the US handily in terms of cost and availability, and we do better in regards to overal health outcomes in most catagories. Stating as only possible exeption maybe when it comes to very rare conditions. The US is very good when it comes to clinical trials.

In regards to education, Belgium spends about 2 percent per student per capita more than the US, has better results in overal outcomes, ( better average education levels) and as I said gives universal access without financial constraints.


What I always find interesting when I have these discussions though is how Americans always have this idea that paying taxes somehow makes the services "free". They are not free, I pay for them by paying taxes.

I don't think that it is fair to compare Belgium with the US overall in this regard. The US are too big and diverse. Something tells me there are states which outperform Belgium and the ones which trail behind it.

And I don't understand who can consider services you get as free. Of course they are not free per se, you pay for them with your taxes. That is the main point. What is better to have high taxes and get 'free' healthcare and education or low taxes but pay directly (or through various funds) for the services you get? I can't give an unambiguous answer on that.

I can

lived in the US for 45 years and Ireland for 25 years. We are freer over here. I would say the evidence backs ME up

Can you give some examples of this greater freedom?

I can't speak for Nonukes but I'm Belgian (my wife's American) and some of those freedoms include in my case. The ability to send my kid to any school I like (no school districts). The freedom to have access to high-quality healthcare regardless of my financial situation. The freedom to send my kid to college without them taking on crippling debt, or me having to save for it my entire life. In general, I have found that I have access to services that would require an American to be very wealthy indeed in order for them to afford it. And because they're available to almost the entire population it gives us freedom of financial constraints for those services.

The price of these freedoms is a tax rate that would make you blanch.

I see. Regarding the freedom to have universal healthcare and education, there are two opposing points of view.

One of them is to have these things 'free' being financed by the state at the cost of taxpayers.

Another one is to have these things being paid by people themselves directly or through various funds (insurance companies, as in the case with healthcare).

What is better? Who knows. The both ways have pros and cons.

I don't think determining what is best is all that complicated. Either you go by what is cheaper, you go by what makes it the most available, or you go by what gives you the highest quality. I don't see any but those 3 options.

In the case of healthcare, I can say without any reservation that Belgium beats the US handily in terms of cost and availability, and we do better in regards to overal health outcomes in most catagories. Stating as only possible exeption maybe when it comes to very rare conditions. The US is very good when it comes to clinical trials.

In regards to education, Belgium spends about 2 percent per student per capita more than the US, has better results in overal outcomes, ( better average education levels) and as I said gives universal access without financial constraints.


What I always find interesting when I have these discussions though is how Americans always have this idea that paying taxes somehow makes the services "free". They are not free, I pay for them by paying taxes.

I don't think that it is fair to compare Belgium with the US overall in this regard. The US are too big and diverse. Something tells me there are states which outperform Belgium and the ones which trail behind it.

And I don't understand who can consider services you get as free. Of course they are not free per se, you pay for them with your taxes. That is the main point. What is better to have high taxes and get 'free' healthcare and education or low taxes but pay directly (or through various funds) for the services you get? I can't give an unambiguous answer on that.

You can't give an unambiguous answer to what is better paying for services like healthcare and education by taxes or directly? Can I ask what is wrong by going be which of those 2 ways gives you the best price for comparable services?

There are of course always ambiguities when comparing something as complex as healthcare or education systems. That doesn't mean you can't draw general conclusions.

As to your size and diversity excuse for the US not being able to offer the same results ( yes it is an excuse).

My country is indeed smaller than the US. But if you want to point to that as a reason, one would expect larger countries have worse results accross the board. Yet Germany 5 times larger than Belgium, has comparable or even slightly better healthcare results. So does Japan wich has over 10 times our population.

As to diversity. My country has 2 very distinct cultures. 3 different national languages to the point that half the population wouldn't be able to communicate if they would speak only 1 language. 11 percent can trace their background to another ethnic group entirely within the last 3 generations. I'm not entirely sure diversity is something you want to compare here.

 

[TNHarley]

lived in the US for 45 years and Ireland for 25 years. We are freer over here. I would say the evidence backs ME up

Can you give some examples of this greater freedom?

I can't speak for Nonukes but I'm Belgian (my wife's American) and some of those freedoms include in my case. The ability to send my kid to any school I like (no school districts). The freedom to have access to high-quality healthcare regardless of my financial situation. The freedom to send my kid to college without them taking on crippling debt, or me having to save for it my entire life. In general, I have found that I have access to services that would require an American to be very wealthy indeed in order for them to afford it. And because they're available to almost the entire population it gives us freedom of financial constraints for those services.

The price of these freedoms is a tax rate that would make you blanch.

The tax rates in belgium are extremely high. That isnt "freedom" thats "freedumb"

 

[ESay]

lived in the US for 45 years and Ireland for 25 years. We are freer over here. I would say the evidence backs ME up

Can you give some examples of this greater freedom?

You can have whatever political beliefs you want without being attacked for them.

Maybe that is because people in the country you live in are more politically indifferent and their society is not so politically polarised as in the US. But again, Ireland is too small to compare it with the US as a whole.

That does not change how things are in the US. Or which country you have more freedom. Also here sensitive political issues such as abortion are voted on by the people and we get to speak out by voting. The will of the people becomes law.

Well, of course it is possible to compare these things only after living a significant period of time in those places. From my, a limited point of view in this regard, I can't grasp why one chooses to get behind the pond rather than choosing some small liberal state (say Maine) as a place of living. Maybe Ireland overall is much cheaper and less overcrowded than these states.

Hardly regular referendums on important matters can be a breaking point in it.

 

[forkup]

lived in the US for 45 years and Ireland for 25 years. We are freer over here. I would say the evidence backs ME up

Can you give some examples of this greater freedom?

I can't speak for Nonukes but I'm Belgian (my wife's American) and some of those freedoms include in my case. The ability to send my kid to any school I like (no school districts). The freedom to have access to high-quality healthcare regardless of my financial situation. The freedom to send my kid to college without them taking on crippling debt, or me having to save for it my entire life. In general, I have found that I have access to services that would require an American to be very wealthy indeed in order for them to afford it. And because they're available to almost the entire population it gives us freedom of financial constraints for those services.

The price of these freedoms is a tax rate that would make you blanch.

The tax rates in belgium are extremely high. That isnt "freedom" thats "freedumb"

What is dumb is to have a significant portion of your population not being able to afford anything beyond basic healthcare and considering that "freedom"

 

[TNHarley]

lived in the US for 45 years and Ireland for 25 years. We are freer over here. I would say the evidence backs ME up

Can you give some examples of this greater freedom?

I can't speak for Nonukes but I'm Belgian (my wife's American) and some of those freedoms include in my case. The ability to send my kid to any school I like (no school districts). The freedom to have access to high-quality healthcare regardless of my financial situation. The freedom to send my kid to college without them taking on crippling debt, or me having to save for it my entire life. In general, I have found that I have access to services that would require an American to be very wealthy indeed in order for them to afford it. And because they're available to almost the entire population it gives us freedom of financial constraints for those services.

The price of these freedoms is a tax rate that would make you blanch.

The tax rates in belgium are extremely high. That isnt "freedom" thats "freedumb"

What is dumb is to have a significant portion of your population not being able to afford anything beyond basic healthcare and considering that "freedom"

If i made in belgium what i make now, I wouldnt be able to afford anything. Jesus Christ man. Tax rates that high should fall under slavery laws.

 

[forkup]

lived in the US for 45 years and Ireland for 25 years. We are freer over here. I would say the evidence backs ME up

Can you give some examples of this greater freedom?

I can't speak for Nonukes but I'm Belgian (my wife's American) and some of those freedoms include in my case. The ability to send my kid to any school I like (no school districts). The freedom to have access to high-quality healthcare regardless of my financial situation. The freedom to send my kid to college without them taking on crippling debt, or me having to save for it my entire life. In general, I have found that I have access to services that would require an American to be very wealthy indeed in order for them to afford it. And because they're available to almost the entire population it gives us freedom of financial constraints for those services.

The price of these freedoms is a tax rate that would make you blanch.

The tax rates in belgium are extremely high. That isnt "freedom" thats "freedumb"

What is dumb is to have a significant portion of your population not being able to afford anything beyond basic healthcare and considering that "freedom"

If i made in belgium what i make now, I wouldnt be able to afford anything. Jesus Christ man. Tax rates that high should fall under slavery laws.

Ever considered that a lot of what you have to spend money on are expenses I pay for by my high taxes?

I'll give you my admittedly highly anecdotal example. I was able to support me, my wife and my daugther for close to a decade on my sole income as an industrial cleaner. Well enough I might add to visit my wife's family about every 2 years.

 

[TNHarley]

Ever considered that a lot of what you have to spend money on are expenses I pay for by my high taxes?

Yes, and it still doesnt add up.
Here in my state, we do free college and didnt have to raise taxes one penny. Because the people in my state actually THOUGHT about it. They didnt just raise taxes on people. Thats a regressive reaction.
I would have HALF my income stolen from the govt if I lived in your country. HALF. Half of the fruits of my labor, stolen by the govt.
What about single people with no kids that take care of themselves and dont need doctors? Half their working life gets stolen to provide for other people with 15 kids or didnt make good decisions with their lives.. Again, thats not freedom. Its literally the opposite.

 

[ESay]

You can't give an unambiguous answer to what is better paying for services like healthcare and education by taxes or directly? Can I ask what is wrong by going be which of those 2 ways gives you the best price for comparable services?

There are of course always ambiguities when comparing something as complex as healthcare or education systems. That doesn't mean you can't draw general conclusions

At this point I should clear the things up. I am not an American and don't live in the US. So, I can't have an inside look how an American system of healthcare really works.

Healthcare in the country I live in is officially funded and controlled by the state. On practice, if you don't have money you don't get treatment (only an emergency one).

My country is indeed smaller than the US. But if you want to point to that as a reason, one would expect larger countries have worse results accross the board. Yet Germany 5 times larger than Belgium, has comparable or even slightly better healthcare results. So does Japan wich has over 10 times our population

And even when compared with Japan, the US three times bigger population wise, to say nothing about the area. Yes, I think that the size matters.

I don't know what ratings you are using. So, it is hard to discuss that.

to diversity. My country has 2 very distinct cultures. 3 different national languages to the point that half the population wouldn't be able to communicate if they would speak only 1 language. 11 percent can trace their background to another ethnic group entirely within the last 3 generations. I'm not entirely sure diversity is something you want to compare here

Saying about diversity I didn't mean only national background. The States have different economic and social background depending when they were admitted to the Union and what economic basis they had. As example, industrial era of some Southern states began only in the 20th century. Except of that, there are various regulations, tax rates, state spending on social programs and so on.

 

[ESay]

Ever considered that a lot of what you have to spend money on are expenses I pay for by my high taxes?

Yes, and it still doesnt add up.
Here in my state, we do free college and didnt have to raise taxes one penny. Because the people in my state actually THOUGHT about it. They didnt just raise taxes on people. Thats a regressive reaction.
I would have HALF my income stolen from the govt if I lived in your country. HALF. Half of the fruits of my labor, stolen by the govt.
What about single people with no kids that take care of themselves and dont need doctors? Half their working life gets stolen to provide for other people with 15 kids or didnt make good decisions with their lives.. Again, thats not freedom. Its literally the opposite.

Well, the US tax rates is an interesting thing. There are places which have quite high, almost European, tax rates. NYC, as an example. But people there don't have social benefits as the West Europeans have. That is maybe more interesting question where these money go.

 

[ESay]

hat about single people with no kids that take care of themselves and dont need doctors? Half their working life gets stolen to provide for other people with 15 kids or didnt make good decisions with their lives.. Again, thats not freedom. Its literally the opposite

Well, that is a good point. But there is another point. If there won't be any support of families with kids, the birth rates will be declining. So, the state will have to fill the gap in workforce and tax payers with the help of immigration. That is the thing the conservatives in the US are do worried about.

 

[bodecea]

Let me tell you about my city of Vegas

It’s like being in a giant outpatient psych ward .

2/3 of the folks here are mentally ill
1/2 are drug addicts or alcoholics
3/4 are genetically damaged
3/4 are dead broke
1/3 - are very violent

It’s a giant sewer pipe

Now tell me about your city !!!

That's why you live there, right?

 

[bodecea]

Vegas does not have big murder problems as the city is 12 percent black only
We do have too many bad folks

Las Vegas has skyrocketed in population to 2.7 million !!!
That is not even counting the hundreds of thousands of illegals

Are you one of those who keep driving the wrong way on 15?

 

[DigitalDrifter]

I have 4 homes in Oregon. Except for one, they are all in deep blue hellholes.
Soon I'll be mooning all of you as I pack up and finish my life in Australia

 

[ESay]

I have 4 homes in Oregon. Except for one, they are all in deep blue hellholes.
Soon I'll be mooning all of you as I pack up and finish my life in Australia

Again, why Australia? There aren't conservative places in the US to live for you? Why are you sure that Australia won't turn into deep 'blue' hellhole over the time?

 

[Erinwltr]

That's a beautiful photo. Did you take that?