What is China up to?

[Munin]

What is China up to?

This week China increased its military budget again.

China keeps increasing military budget with double digits:
...
2007: World Politics Review | China's Latest Military Spending Increase Garners Anxious Reactions
2008 (Navy): Chinese submarine fleet is growing, analysts say - International Herald Tribune
2008: BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | China to raise military spending
2008: (recent navy changes)[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27ArAiB3GIg]YouTube - U.S. vs China[/ame]

The huge submarine fleet that China now has developed, is now the largest submarine fleet in Asia.
What could be the purpose? Look back at the reasons why nations used submarines in the latest wars:
- Germany: a blockade of Britain, wich nearly succeeded at some point in the war.
- Japan: Carrier attacks (destroyed at least one carrier), intelligence gathering, attacking supply convoys
- US: intelligence gathering, attacking supply convoys, used in decisive naval battles.
What re the advantages for China?
* Unlocks Taiwan Blockade option (another advantage is that submarines re cheap compared to other naval ships)
* Unlocks the option to get nukes undetected within range of US mainland
* Very useful against the biggest weakness of the US fleet in the pacific: the immense area the US has to cover to protect all its islands and trade & supply lanes.
* Cheap submarines allow the production of a large number of them, making the area they can cover immense. Allowing the wolfpack doctrine for submarines (submarines operating in large groups or "wolfpacks")

Also keep in mind: "analysts say real figure is much higher" (since China doesn't publish the real numbers)

China's naval tests of the US naval fleet:
Washington Times - China sub stalked U.S. fleet
China's submarine testing:
(Okt 2008) Submarines: Chinese Boats Stalk George Washington

China's spy service:
China hacks into Pentagon | Metro.co.uk (US military)
Inside the Chinese Hack Attack - TIME (US military)
Lawmakers Say China Hacks Their Computers - Headline Watch (US Congress & House Foreign Affairs Committee)
CNN.com - Sources: Chinese board U.S. spy plane, remove equipment - April 3, 2001 (A Big Thank You to the US military for the state of the art technology)
Defense Tech: China Hacks White House Email? (US white house)
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MzXk-1dWPc]YouTube - China Hacks Whitehouse![/ame] (US white house)
French reveal China hacks | Australian IT (France)
China hacks Germany… « The 411… (Germany)
Belgium reports Chinese cyber attack | Information Age (Belgium)
Information Warfare: China Hacks Tibet (Tibet War is still going on)


Comparison of China's with US: World Military Strength Comparison


China keeps buying US debt at an alarming rate:

http://www.treas.gov/tic/mfh.txt
China is the biggest stakeholder of US treasure debt and has since recently surpassed the Japanese in being largest stakeholder in US debt. Why is this important?

"Suez Crisis
Main article: Suez Crisis

After the United Kingdom and the United States withdrew their pledge to support the construction of the Aswan Dam due to Egyptian overtures towards the Soviet Union, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser nationalised the canal in 1956, intending to finance the dam project using revenue from the canal, while at the same time closing the Gulf of Aqaba to all Israeli shipping by closure of the Straits of Tiran. This provoked the Suez Crisis, in which the UK, France and Israel colluded to invade Egypt. The intention was for Israel to invade on the ground, and for the Anglo-French partnership to give air and other support, later to intervene to resolve the crisis and control the canal.

To stop the war from spreading and to save the British from what he thought was a disastrous action, Canadian Secretary of State for External Affairs, Lester B. Pearson, proposed the creation of the very first United Nations peacekeeping force to ensure access to the canal for all and an Israeli withdrawal from the Sinai. On 4 November 1956, a majority of nations at the United Nations voted for Pearson's peacekeeping resolution, which mandated the UN peacekeepers to stay in the Sinai Peninsula unless both Egypt and Israel agreed to their withdrawal. The United States backed this proposal BY PUTTING FINANCIAL PRESSURE ON THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT, which then agreed to withdraw its troops. Pearson was later awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. As a result of damage and ships intentionally sunk under orders from Nasser[30] the canal was closed until April 1957, when it was cleared with UN assistance. A UN force (UNEF) was established to maintain the neutrality of the canal and the Sinai Peninsula."

"BY PUTTING FINANCIAL PRESSURE ON THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT"
The US actually forced the British by using the debt the British had towards the Americans (The British were firmly opposed to this "solution"), so what if China just takes Taiwan and uses US debt as an "insurance": if the US would have to interfere they d have to lend the money from china to do it (because of US national debt).




The painful irony is that we indirectly paid for their military expansion, because of investment from the West in the Chinese economy since 1979. And if China would one day decide to use its military against the US, it would have be even more painful knowing that the Western Nations were responsible for indirectly expanding Chinese military into the state it will be then.


Also the statement of China that "the expansion of the military is purely for defensive reasons", shouldn't make you feel more comfortable. Knowing that this statement has been used time and time again in the history of war and knowing that about every Nation in history that expanded his military always did it with the purpose to use it (not to "defend").



Interesting links:
Birth Of A Superpower - TIME
India-China Relations: A Military Perspective - V R Raghavan (China - India relations)
U.S. National Debt Clock (US current Dept)
the nuclear information project: Chinese Nuclear Sub Cave (Chinese submarine-cave)
Top-secret Chinese sub surfaces on internet maps - Technology - smh.com.au (China's latest "new" sub)
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/default.asp (List of types of China's subs with specifications by NATO/OTAN)

 

[editec]

They can afford this sort of military build up thanks to millions of Americans giving up their jobs to jumpstart their economy.

Wonder when China is planning on pullin g the rug out from under those folks who believed that trading with China such that we got poor while they got rich wouldn't matter?

God! ~ our leaders are either the dumbest fucking leaders in human history or the most venal.

Either way they ought to be horsewhipped and sent to work in some of America's famous FOR PROFIT prisons.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Are the subs diesel or nuclear? Diesel means they are still not a blue water navy. How many are able to carry nukes? I suspect the US navy would go a tad balistic if China were building a large submarine force of nuclear launch capable.

Diesel subs though are a problem around Taiwan. Harder to detect in most cases. And as far as I know we still haven't replaced the P3 Orion.

China will most likely go for Taiwan in the next 10 years. Or try to convince Taiwan they can do it. Our navy is the ONLY reason Taiwan is not red now.

 

[Munin]

Are the subs diesel or nuclear? Diesel means they are still not a blue water navy. How many are able to carry nukes? I suspect the US navy would go a tad balistic if China were building a large submarine force of nuclear launch capable.

Diesel subs though are a problem around Taiwan. Harder to detect in most cases. And as far as I know we still haven't replaced the P3 Orion.

China will most likely go for Taiwan in the next 10 years. Or try to convince Taiwan they can do it. Our navy is the ONLY reason Taiwan is not red now.

The majority of them re diesel, but as you said they have their advantages.

But they have nuclear-powered ones as well: Submarines - SinoDefence.com (keep in mind that these re the estimated figures, the real number of subs might be much higher)

I don't know how many of their subs re able to carry nuclear missiles, that s the problem: we don't even know how many subs China even really has.

They ve been working on all kind of subs lately:
Top-secret Chinese sub surfaces on internet maps - Technology - smh.com.au

And them having these kind of underground sub-bases makes it harder for US intelligence to spot them: http://www.nukestrat.com/china/subcave.htm

 

[eots]

What is China up to?

they are trying to decide if they should call us on our bad debt..and come and take the collateral...or just wait and buy the country for penny's on the dollar when it all crashes into bankruptcy

 

[we_ourselves]

Maybe they just want to hold our own when enemy nations like the U.S., Japan, Taiwan, and south Korea have forces all over China's backyard, including nuclear-armed warships in Chinese territorial waters.

 

[YWN666]

They're going to slowly take over the world by putting lead in all of the toys they produce.

 

[chloe]

China is up to No Good and should be treated like the extortionist country it is.

 

[Xenophon]

It appears to be poetic justice, as for centuries all they wanted was to be left alone and the west took them over.

Now the shoe is on the other foot.

The fates have a sense of humor.

 

[random3434]

They're going to slowly take over the world by putting lead in all of the toys they produce.

Then WalMart will sell them.

 

[chloe]

What is China up to?

they are trying to decide if they should call us on our bad debt..and come and take the collateral...or just wait and buy the country for penny's on the dollar when it all crashes into bankruptcy

what are we gonna do about it eots....your devotee waiting for the next secret

 

[DavidS]

Are the subs diesel or nuclear? Diesel means they are still not a blue water navy. How many are able to carry nukes? I suspect the US navy would go a tad balistic if China were building a large submarine force of nuclear launch capable.

Diesel subs though are a problem around Taiwan. Harder to detect in most cases. And as far as I know we still haven't replaced the P3 Orion.

China will most likely go for Taiwan in the next 10 years. Or try to convince Taiwan they can do it. Our navy is the ONLY reason Taiwan is not red now.

Do you think China will do it before the US launches its next aircraft carrier class?

 

[Zoomie1980]

What is China up to?

This week China increased its military budget again.

China keeps increasing military budget with double digits:
...
2007: World Politics Review | China's Latest Military Spending Increase Garners Anxious Reactions
2008 (Navy): Chinese submarine fleet is growing, analysts say - International Herald Tribune
2008: BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | China to raise military spending
2008: (recent navy changes)YouTube - U.S. vs China

The huge submarine fleet that China now has developed, is now the largest submarine fleet in Asia.
What could be the purpose? Look back at the reasons why nations used submarines in the latest wars:
- Germany: a blockade of Britain, wich nearly succeeded at some point in the war.
- Japan: Carrier attacks (destroyed at least one carrier), intelligence gathering, attacking supply convoys
- US: intelligence gathering, attacking supply convoys, used in decisive naval battles.
What re the advantages for China?
* Unlocks Taiwan Blockade option (another advantage is that submarines re cheap compared to other naval ships)
* Unlocks the option to get nukes undetected within range of US mainland
* Very useful against the biggest weakness of the US fleet in the pacific: the immense area the US has to cover to protect all its islands and trade & supply lanes.
* Cheap submarines allow the production of a large number of them, making the area they can cover immense. Allowing the wolfpack doctrine for submarines (submarines operating in large groups or "wolfpacks")

Also keep in mind: "analysts say real figure is much higher" (since China doesn't publish the real numbers)

China's naval tests of the US naval fleet:
Washington Times - China sub stalked U.S. fleet
China's submarine testing:
(Okt 2008) Submarines: Chinese Boats Stalk George Washington

China's spy service:
China hacks into Pentagon | Metro.co.uk (US military)
Inside the Chinese Hack Attack - TIME (US military)
Lawmakers Say China Hacks Their Computers - Headline Watch (US Congress & House Foreign Affairs Committee)
CNN.com - Sources: Chinese board U.S. spy plane, remove equipment - April 3, 2001 (A Big Thank You to the US military for the state of the art technology)
Defense Tech: China Hacks White House Email? (US white house)
YouTube - China Hacks Whitehouse! (US white house)
French reveal China hacks | Australian IT (France)
China hacks Germany… « The 411… (Germany)
Belgium reports Chinese cyber attack | Information Age (Belgium)
Information Warfare: China Hacks Tibet (Tibet War is still going on)


Comparison of China's with US: World Military Strength Comparison


China keeps buying US debt at an alarming rate:

http://www.treas.gov/tic/mfh.txt
China is the biggest stakeholder of US treasure debt and has since recently surpassed the Japanese in being largest stakeholder in US debt. Why is this important?

"Suez Crisis
Main article: Suez Crisis

After the United Kingdom and the United States withdrew their pledge to support the construction of the Aswan Dam due to Egyptian overtures towards the Soviet Union, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser nationalised the canal in 1956, intending to finance the dam project using revenue from the canal, while at the same time closing the Gulf of Aqaba to all Israeli shipping by closure of the Straits of Tiran. This provoked the Suez Crisis, in which the UK, France and Israel colluded to invade Egypt. The intention was for Israel to invade on the ground, and for the Anglo-French partnership to give air and other support, later to intervene to resolve the crisis and control the canal.

To stop the war from spreading and to save the British from what he thought was a disastrous action, Canadian Secretary of State for External Affairs, Lester B. Pearson, proposed the creation of the very first United Nations peacekeeping force to ensure access to the canal for all and an Israeli withdrawal from the Sinai. On 4 November 1956, a majority of nations at the United Nations voted for Pearson's peacekeeping resolution, which mandated the UN peacekeepers to stay in the Sinai Peninsula unless both Egypt and Israel agreed to their withdrawal. The United States backed this proposal BY PUTTING FINANCIAL PRESSURE ON THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT, which then agreed to withdraw its troops. Pearson was later awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. As a result of damage and ships intentionally sunk under orders from Nasser[30] the canal was closed until April 1957, when it was cleared with UN assistance. A UN force (UNEF) was established to maintain the neutrality of the canal and the Sinai Peninsula."

"BY PUTTING FINANCIAL PRESSURE ON THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT"
The US actually forced the British by using the debt the British had towards the Americans (The British were firmly opposed to this "solution"), so what if China just takes Taiwan and uses US debt as an "insurance": if the US would have to interfere they d have to lend the money from china to do it (because of US national debt).




The painful irony is that we indirectly paid for their military expansion, because of investment from the West in the Chinese economy since 1979. And if China would one day decide to use its military against the US, it would have be even more painful knowing that the Western Nations were responsible for indirectly expanding Chinese military into the state it will be then.


Also the statement of China that "the expansion of the military is purely for defensive reasons", shouldn't make you feel more comfortable. Knowing that this statement has been used time and time again in the history of war and knowing that about every Nation in history that expanded his military always did it with the purpose to use it (not to "defend").



Interesting links:
Birth Of A Superpower - TIME
India-China Relations: A Military Perspective - V R Raghavan (China - India relations)
U.S. National Debt Clock (US current Dept)
the nuclear information project: Chinese Nuclear Sub Cave (Chinese submarine-cave)
Top-secret Chinese sub surfaces on internet maps - Technology - smh.com.au (China's latest "new" sub)
Submarines - SinoDefence.com (List of types of China's subs with specifications by NATO/OTAN)

China cannot, nor will not possess a "force projection" military in your lifetime. The neither possess the desire or the technology to do such. Their subs are all defensive in nature, not even possessing SSM's. They possess virtually no amphibious vessels. And no aircraft carriers and none on the drawing board.

China is NOT an imperial culture. Never have been, never will be. Taiwan will NEVER be invaded and conquered. They simply lack the force to do so. A single American carrier battle group could completely destroy any invasion force the Chinese could muster.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Yeah, well, the US still spends more on their military than the rest of the world combined.

What are YOU up to?

 

[Harry Dresden]

Yeah, well, the US still spends more on their military than the rest of the world combined.

What are YOU up to?

wouldn't you like to know.....

 

[William Joyce]

they are trying to decide if they should call us on our bad debt..and come and take the collateral...or just wait and buy the country for penny's on the dollar when it all crashes into bankruptcy

Yes, China need not stock nukes to make trouble. Just do as eots says or stop exporting their crap, and we'll howl.

Our policy is terrible. We don't make anything anymore, have massive debt, and have an economy otherwise based on flipping burgers and suing each other.

I mean, are there ANY clothes or consumer electronics made in America anymore?

 

[carpe deus]

China is very obviously a threat. Does no one recall the statement of Chinese General Zuh Chenghu? "If the Americans draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to the target zone on China's territory, I think we will have to respond with nuclear weapons."

Can any sane person regard this as an expression of peaceful intentions?

 

[Epsilon Delta]

China is very obviously a threat. Does no one recall the statement of Chinese General Zuh Chenghu? "If the Americans draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to the target zone on China's territory, I think we will have to respond with nuclear weapons."

Can any sane person regard this as an expression of peaceful intentions?

Are you saying that "If the Chinese draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to the target zone on America's territory", the Americans wouldn't respond with nuclear weapons??



Sorry that I keep flipping the question, but it's interesting to see Americans basically say "The Chinese are doing what we do! ... FUCK!"

 

[Munin]

China cannot, nor will not possess a "force projection" military in your lifetime. (1)The neither possess the desire or the technology to do such. Their subs are all defensive in nature, not even possessing SSM's. They possess virtually no amphibious vessels. (2)And no aircraft carriers and none on the drawing board.

(3)China is NOT an imperial culture. Never have been, never will be. Taiwan will NEVER be invaded and conquered. They simply lack the force to do so. A single American carrier battle group could completely destroy any invasion force the Chinese could muster.

1 Why do they feel the need to keep stealing military technology then? And how come their subs have come to the point that they outmatch the US navy? (referring to the incident where a sub surfaced in the middle of a US battle group, surprising the carrier and all escort ships: wich means that the sub could have sunk anyone of those ships if there was a war going on)

2 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/18/world/asia/18china.html , I m not so sure of that: many Chinese officials claim it is on the drawing board and that is is being developed as we speak.

3 It doesn't have an imperialistic culture, but it has an imperialistic government: remember Tibet? Or should we call it Xīzàng now?
And why China feels the need to have thousands of military missiles along the coast with Taiwan if it only has peaceful intentions towards Taiwan? They don't lack the force to do so, they already exceeded that force a long time ago.

 

[Mr. President]

Munin, the Chinese Navy is far from being able to outmatch the US Navy.