Zone1 What Is All This "Christian Nation" Stuff?

I enjoy your history lessons so please enjoy mine too.
Have you been to the battlefields? I was in VA at the first battle called Bull Run by the North. It was one hell of a fight and the Confederates sent Lincoln's troops fleeing like they were on fire back to DC.

You do what the north loves to do, send us packing to Ft. Sumter. Abe had already came to office after the North had abandoned many forts it held. Ft Sumter was a joke of a battle. Why one asks me? Because the South had toys for cannons to hit that fort. It was hardly damaged. The range of the South Cannons was pitiful. This the north never tells you.

The South for a fact did operations similar to Washington who took up arms against their then legal government. He spent 8 years trying to defeat the then lawful government of England. Why the defenders of Lincoln don't notice the sameness of the pair or wars amazes me.
"Ft Sumter was a joke of a battle."

So you agree that it was a battle?

And "On April 5, Lincoln dispatched a fleet of supply ships with the proviso that was relayed to Jefferson Davis: the vessels would be unarmed, with the only cargo "food for hungry men."


Looks like the initiation of a war to me.


BTW.....I'm just a lil' ol' Southern gal.






Seoul, South Korea
 
People are always welcome to attend Christian church services as long as they don't bring heresies and idolatry with them. Most traditional denominations are pretty strict with their beliefs and doctrines, however there are unassociated liberal 'ministries' that welcome all sorts of goofy beliefs.
Sooooo......what are the questions they ask at the door before they let worshippers in?
 
Her evidence was posted extensively in the OP, genius.

I happen not to care for a description of our nation as being “Christian,” but only because it is a slightly ambiguous phrase which can cause confusion.

It is obviously true that we, as a nation, have Christian roots.

Nevertheless, we also took pains to carefully insure that faith was not a necessary component of living here or working in and for our government. So, I don’t believe that the U.S. “is” a “Christian” nation.
But it seems very likely that many (most) of our people identify today as Christians.
Thank you BA, but I should mention that I never claimed our nation is a Christian nation, nor do I believe it is

The OP stated conditions at the founding.


I'm sure we both agree on how important growing the nation was to the Founders, hence birthright citizenship, so there never was nor will be a religious requirement.
 
If a "nation" is defined by its people, and most are Christian, then it follows that we are a Christian nation regardless of pleas to the contrary. All the Constitutions really says is that the State shall not impose or require a religious belief for citizenship.

It is noteworthy that historically some Muslim countries have allowed other religions, but those nations still remain "Islamic" nations.
You are really holding on by your fingernails.

"Watch out below!!!!"
 
Her evidence was posted extensively in the OP, genius.

I happen not to care for a description of our nation as being “Christian,” but only because it is a slightly ambiguous phrase which can cause confusion.

It is obviously true that we, as a nation, have Christian roots.

Nevertheless, we also took pains to carefully insure that faith was not a necessary component of living here or working in and for our government. So, I don’t believe that the U.S. “is” a “Christian” nation.
But it seems very likely that many (most) of our people identify today as Christians.
"It is obviously true that we, as a nation, have Christian roots."


Just an aside, and to be historically accurate, our Founders believed that they, our nation, had Hebrew roots. They pictured themselves as the Hebrews escaping Egypt via the Red Sea, as they escaped England.



“The Founders of this country had a reason for favoring the Jewish people, due to their attachment to the Bible, and because the Founders saw themselves as descendants of the People of the Book.

“Rather than just tolerate the Jews as another religious minority, America’s Founding Fathers were profoundly inspired by Jewish ideas, …. understanding liberty not as an individual license for each of us to pursue his or her bliss but as a collective commitment to a greater good under the watchful eyes of God.” In American Jewish History, a Key to Future Greatness




“Benjamin Franklin’s proposals for a Great Seal featuring not an eagle but Moses and the Israelites crossing the Red Sea.”
1637870738043.png










First Committee's Design for America's Great Seal - 1776
 
5. On April 5, Lincoln dispatched a fleet of supply ships with the proviso that was relayed to Jefferson Davis: the vessels would be unarmed, with the only cargo "food for hungry men."
We won't understand this thinking that in those days it was like today where a telephone would do as you said. They had no instant communications and Jefferson Davis was many miles away in Alabama. I don't see how he had any role at all.
1. How did secession and the outbreak of civil war affect enslaved people and their southern owners?
After Lincoln’s election and the secession of the southern states, small numbers of enslaved people began showing up at Union forts in the hopes of taking refuge. But Union commanders were not charged with protecting slaves and promptly returned them to their masters. One such slave—a teenager—made his way across Charleston Harbor to Fort Sumter in March of 1861 to appeal to Major Anderson, but was turned over to marshals in Charleston.

With Union troops in their midst, white residents of Charleston were increasingly concerned about runaway slaves. Of even greater worry, however, was the possibility of a slave uprising. Mary Chestnut, wife of prominent Charleston politician and Confederate colonel James Chestnut, started keeping a diary in February 1861. As events unfolded across Charleston Harbor on April 12, she wondered how the action at Fort Sumter would impact the future.

Not by one word or look can we detect any change in the demeanor of these negro servants. Lawrence sits at our door, sleepy and respectful, and profoundly indifferent. So are they all, but they carry it too far. You could not tell that they even heard the awful roar going on in the bay, though it has been dinning in their ears night and day. People talk before them as if they were chairs and tables. They make no sign. Are they stolidly stupid? or wiser than we are; silent and strong, biding their time?

With the start of the Civil War, desperate refugees from slavery began to flood Union camps in earnest, but the government in Washington still had no consistent policy regarding fugitives. Often their fate was in the hands of the individual commanders. Finally, on August 6, 1861, the North declared fugitive slaves to be "contraband of war" if their labor had been used to aid the Confederacy. Contrabands were considered free and were protected by the Union army.

As the reality of war sunk in, slaveholders in the South hoped that their slaves would remain loyal to them. Some did, and the slave uprising that Mary Chestnut feared never came. But the exodus of enslaved people who crossed Union lines and made their way to freedom steadily increased after guns were fired at Fort Sumter. By 1863, approximately 10,000 former slaves flooded Washington. By the end of the Civil War, as many as 40,000 fugitives had made their way to the Union capital.
 
5. On April 5, Lincoln dispatched a fleet of supply ships with the proviso that was relayed to Jefferson Davis: the vessels would be unarmed, with the only cargo "food for hungry men."
We won't understand this thinking that in those days it was like today where a telephone would do as you said. They had no instant communications and Jefferson Davis was many miles away in Alabama. I don't see how he had any role at all.
1. How did secession and the outbreak of civil war affect enslaved people and their southern owners?
After Lincoln’s election and the secession of the southern states, small numbers of enslaved people began showing up at Union forts in the hopes of taking refuge. But Union commanders were not charged with protecting slaves and promptly returned them to their masters. One such slave—a teenager—made his way across Charleston Harbor to Fort Sumter in March of 1861 to appeal to Major Anderson, but was turned over to marshals in Charleston.

With Union troops in their midst, white residents of Charleston were increasingly concerned about runaway slaves. Of even greater worry, however, was the possibility of a slave uprising. Mary Chestnut, wife of prominent Charleston politician and Confederate colonel James Chestnut, started keeping a diary in February 1861. As events unfolded across Charleston Harbor on April 12, she wondered how the action at Fort Sumter would impact the future.

Not by one word or look can we detect any change in the demeanor of these negro servants. Lawrence sits at our door, sleepy and respectful, and profoundly indifferent. So are they all, but they carry it too far. You could not tell that they even heard the awful roar going on in the bay, though it has been dinning in their ears night and day. People talk before them as if they were chairs and tables. They make no sign. Are they stolidly stupid? or wiser than we are; silent and strong, biding their time?

With the start of the Civil War, desperate refugees from slavery began to flood Union camps in earnest, but the government in Washington still had no consistent policy regarding fugitives. Often their fate was in the hands of the individual commanders. Finally, on August 6, 1861, the North declared fugitive slaves to be "contraband of war" if their labor had been used to aid the Confederacy. Contrabands were considered free and were protected by the Union army.

As the reality of war sunk in, slaveholders in the South hoped that their slaves would remain loyal to them. Some did, and the slave uprising that Mary Chestnut feared never came. But the exodus of enslaved people who crossed Union lines and made their way to freedom steadily increased after guns were fired at Fort Sumter. By 1863, approximately 10,000 former slaves flooded Washington. By the end of the Civil War, as many as 40,000 fugitives had made their way to the Union capital.
"They had no instant communications and Jefferson Davis was many miles away in Alabama. I don't see how he had any role at all."


What if Democrat Jefferson Davis was aware, but wanted to underscore how ready he was for war?

What if I am correct about his belief that England would ally with the South?


They had a clear argument that Britain needed their cotton, and losing it would mean financial ruin for the Island Empire.



Senator James Henry Hammond, in what became known as the "Cotton is King" speech:

" Without firing a gun, without drawing a sword, should they make war on us we could bring the whole world to our feet.

The South is perfectly competent to go on, one, two, or three years without planting a seed of cotton. I believe that if she was to plant but half her cotton, for three years to come, it would be an immense advantage to her. I am not so sure but that after three years' entire abstinence she would come out stronger than ever she was before, and better prepared to enter afresh upon her great career of enterprise.

What would happen if no cotton was furnished for three years? I will not stop to depict what every one can imagine, but this is certain: England would topple headlong and carry the whole civilized world with her, save the South.No, you dare not make war on cotton. No power on earth dares to make war upon it. Cotton is king." James Henry Hammond Cotton is King




That was 1858. The Southern elite already thought they had an ace up their sleeve with which to coax Britain.

. Senator Hammond's South Carolina was the first state to respond to Lincoln's election (Novermber 6, 1860): it called a convention on whether to secede....the vote was announced on December 20, 1860: 169-0 to secede.

London Times: "there is nothing in all the dark caves of human passion so cruel and deadly as the hatred the South Carolinians profess for the Yankees."
May 28, 1861
 
"Ft Sumter was a joke of a battle."

So you agree that it was a battle?

And "On April 5, Lincoln dispatched a fleet of supply ships with the proviso that was relayed to Jefferson Davis: the vessels would be unarmed, with the only cargo "food for hungry men."


Looks like the initiation of a war to me.


BTW.....I'm just a lil' ol' Southern gal.






Seoul, South Korea
I said one thing wrong. Jefferson who was in Alabama did order Beauregard to attack the fort. Notice in the records there was a pretty large time span between acts and events later. As I found by research years ago, the cannons used by the South were more like toys. Some rounds could set fires and fort did get fires set inside. But no troops were harmed on either side. It was a joke of a Battle.
 
I said one thing wrong. Jefferson who was in Alabama did order Beauregard to attack the fort. Notice in the records there was a pretty large time span between acts and events later. As I found by research years ago, the cannons used by the South were more like toys. Some rounds could set fires and fort did get fires set inside. But no troops were harmed on either side. It was a joke of a Battle.
I have family in Virginia.....one of the sons has this big tattoo....

1740441755843.webp
 
I said one thing wrong. Jefferson who was in Alabama did order Beauregard to attack the fort. Notice in the records there was a pretty large time span between acts and events later. As I found by research years ago, the cannons used by the South were more like toys. Some rounds could set fires and fort did get fires set inside. But no troops were harmed on either side. It was a joke of a Battle.
  • Despite no deaths during the engagement itself, the attack on Fort Sumter is widely considered the opening event of the American Civil War.
    Google

  • Soooo.....no attack, no start of the war (at that point).
 
"They had no instant communications and Jefferson Davis was many miles away in Alabama. I don't see how he had any role at all."


What if Democrat Jefferson Davis was aware, but wanted to underscore how ready he was for war?

What if I am correct about his belief that England would ally with the South?


They had a clear argument that Britain needed their cotton, and losing it would mean financial ruin for the Island Empire.



Senator James Henry Hammond, in what became known as the "Cotton is King" speech:

" Without firing a gun, without drawing a sword, should they make war on us we could bring the whole world to our feet.

The South is perfectly competent to go on, one, two, or three years without planting a seed of cotton. I believe that if she was to plant but half her cotton, for three years to come, it would be an immense advantage to her. I am not so sure but that after three years' entire abstinence she would come out stronger than ever she was before, and better prepared to enter afresh upon her great career of enterprise.

What would happen if no cotton was furnished for three years? I will not stop to depict what every one can imagine, but this is certain: England would topple headlong and carry the whole civilized world with her, save the South.No, you dare not make war on cotton. No power on earth dares to make war upon it. Cotton is king." James Henry Hammond Cotton is King




That was 1858. The Southern elite already thought they had an ace up their sleeve with which to coax Britain.

. Senator Hammond's South Carolina was the first state to respond to Lincoln's election (Novermber 6, 1860): it called a convention on whether to secede....the vote was announced on December 20, 1860: 169-0 to secede.

London Times: "there is nothing in all the dark caves of human passion so cruel and deadly as the hatred the South Carolinians profess for the Yankees."
May 28, 1861
This is fun. I recently corrected the statement about Jefferson Davis who ordered the attack against Ft. Sumpter apparently days earlier than the cannons fired.
This boils down to what is war?

Since when Lincoln invaded the South at Bull Run in VA, a rather tiny creek the time I was there, His forces came from all sides. They had cannons, they had rifles and they had thousands actually trying to take over VA. That to me is war. But hitting the walls of a heavy fortress and nobody gets injured as I see it is not yet war. It is a military operation as Putin likes to say.

On the cotton issue, I tend to doubt that Lincoln or Davis or Beauregard was thinking about that when the Confederates opened up with weak cannons at Ft. Sumter.
 
This is fun. I recently corrected the statement about Jefferson Davis who ordered the attack against Ft. Sumpter apparently days earlier than the cannons fired.
This boils down to what is war?

Since when Lincoln invaded the South at Bull Run in VA, a rather tiny creek the time I was there, His forces came from all sides. They had cannons, they had rifles and they had thousands actually trying to take over VA. That to me is war. But hitting the walls of a heavy fortress and nobody gets injured as I see it is not yet war. It is a military operation as Putin likes to say.

On the cotton issue, I tend to doubt that Lincoln or Davis or Beauregard was thinking about that when the Confederates opened up with weak cannons at Ft. Sumter.
The Battle of Fort Sumter was the first engagement of the American Civil War. It took place on April 12–13, 1861 in Charleston Harbor, South Carolina.


President Abraham Lincoln ordered an attack on Confederate forces at Bull Run, Virginia on July 21, 1861. This was the first major battle of the American Civil War.




BTW, what should a President do if some army fires on his troops/fort?
 
I have family in Virginia.....one of the sons has this big tattoo....

View attachment 1082919
That looks cool. I was in VA and bought a confederate battle flag there as a souvenir. I don't fly it outside ever. It was a thing to remind me I was in VA at two battle sites then and later at other battle sites around the state.

I am native of CA where there they don't really talk much at all about the events back then.
 
The Battle of Fort Sumter was the first engagement of the American Civil War. It took place on April 12–13, 1861 in Charleston Harbor, South Carolina.


President Abraham Lincoln ordered an attack on Confederate forces at Bull Run, Virginia on July 21, 1861. This was the first major battle of the American Civil War.




BTW, what should a President do if some army fires on his troops/fort?
Abe would have had more justification had he attacked back at Ft. Sumter and surrendered.

It was a hell of a problem for Abe since he told in reports he did not go to war about slavery. Abe in fact wanted to deport the blacks to some islands and the Central América countries or even back to Africa.
 
This is fun. I recently corrected the statement about Jefferson Davis who ordered the attack against Ft. Sumpter apparently days earlier than the cannons fired.
This boils down to what is war?

Since when Lincoln invaded the South at Bull Run in VA, a rather tiny creek the time I was there, His forces came from all sides. They had cannons, they had rifles and they had thousands actually trying to take over VA. That to me is war. But hitting the walls of a heavy fortress and nobody gets injured as I see it is not yet war. It is a military operation as Putin likes to say.

On the cotton issue, I tend to doubt that Lincoln or Davis or Beauregard was thinking about that when the Confederates opened up with weak cannons at Ft. Sumter.
Everyone understood the concept, the drum beat for war.


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In his "Cotton is King" speech, Senator James Henry Hammond famously declared that the South's cotton production was so vital to the world economy that it gave the South immense power, essentially stating "No power on earth dares to make war upon it. Cotton is king.".


Hammond gave this speech to the U.S. Senate on March 4, 1858, during a heated debate about slavery and states' rights.
 
Abe would have had more justification had he attacked back at Ft. Sumter and surrendered.

It was a hell of a problem for Abe since he told in reports he did not go to war about slavery. Abe in fact wanted to deport the blacks to some islands and the Central América countries or even back to Africa.
Let's not lose the point.

The South wanted the war, believed they had the upper hand (England) and the South started the war.

I'd be happy to blame it on Buchanan and Taney.

You know there is a broad street name Taneys Avenue in Alexandria. It's not over for you guys, is it.


1740442868900.webp
 
  • Despite no deaths during the engagement itself, the attack on Fort Sumter is widely considered the opening event of the American Civil War.
    Google

  • Soooo.....no attack, no start of the war (at that point).
Here is the thing. I would get called a lost cause proponent but that is not my message at all. We all live with the history books supplied to us. Those who support the South are hated by the North and pretty well cancelled out. I found some history books willing to be honest.

To get where I am at, consider two wars. Washington's war which is commonly approved and the way Abe attacked VA which some of us do not like at all.

Today we all linger with elements of the War called civil. It was surely not civil at all. Civil wars are when two sides enter combat each wanting to take over the other side. Similar to what happened in Korea during that war.

 
Let's not lose the point.

The South wanted the war, believed they had the upper hand (England) and the South started the war.

I'd be happy to blame it on Buchanan and Taney.

You know there is a broad street name Taneys Avenue in Alexandria. It's not over for you guys, is it.


View attachment 1082934
I do not originate from the South at all. It took me a very long time to go to where it happened to study it first hand. I have books about this. I plan to open them to see what England could do. But it did nothing as you well know.
 
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