What Constitutes a "Right?"

[Intense]

I take your point that some people need to think a creator is watching them to make sure they stay on the straight and narrow. ?

I write to emphasize that the term "Creator" as used by Thomas Jefferson did not have religious significance:

Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson


.
Jan.1.1802.

So You are Saying that Inalienable Rights have no Religious significance too? It was used in the same sentence.

Have you ever herd the Term "Jefferson Bible"?

 

[JBeukema]

*yawn*

Once again 'rights' degenerates into its true form- religion

 

[Intense]

1. Inalienable Rights


The government of the United States is the result of a revolution in thought. It was founded on the principle that all persons have equal rights, and that government is responsible to, and derives its powers from, a free people. To Jefferson and the other Founding Fathers, these ideas were not just a passing intellectual fad, but a recognition of something inherent in the nature of man itself. The very foundation of government, therefore, rests on the inalienable rights of the people and of each individual composing their mass. The Declaration of Independence, written by Thomas Jefferson, is the fundamental statement of what government is and from what source it derives its powers. It begins with a summary of those inalienable rights that are the self-evident basis for a free society and for all the powers to protect those rights that a just government exercises.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Declaration of Independence as originally written by Thomas Jefferson, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:315
"[Our] principles [are] founded on the immovable basis of equal right and reason." --Thomas Jefferson to James Sullivan, 1797. ME 9:379

"An equal application of law to every condition of man is fundamental." --Thomas Jefferson to George Hay, 1807. ME 11:341

"The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens." --Thomas Jefferson: Note in Destutt de Tracy, "Political Economy," 1816. ME 14:465

"To unequal privileges among members of the same society the spirit of our nation is, with one accord, adverse." --Thomas Jefferson to Hugh White, 1801. ME 10:258

"In America, no other distinction between man and man had ever been known but that of persons in office exercising powers by authority of the laws, and private individuals. Among these last, the poorest laborer stood on equal ground with the wealthiest millionaire, and generally on a more favored one whenever their rights seem to jar." --Thomas Jefferson: Answers to de Meusnier Questions, 1786. ME 17:8

"Of distinction by birth or badge, [Americans] had no more idea than they had of the mode of existence in the moon or planets. They had heard only that there were such, and knew that they must be wrong." --Thomas Jefferson: Answers to de Meusnier Questions, 1786. ME 17:89

"[The] best principles [of our republic] secure to all its citizens a perfect equality of rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to the Citizens of Wilmington, 1809. ME 16:336


The Nature and Source of Our Rights
"The principles on which we engaged, of which the charter of our independence is the record, were sanctioned by the laws of our being, and we but obeyed them in pursuing undeviatingly the course they called for. It issued finally in that inestimable state of freedom which alone can ensure to man the enjoyment of his equal rights." --Thomas Jefferson to Georgetown Republicans, 1809. ME 16:349

"Man [is] a rational animal, endowed by nature with rights and with an innate sense of justice." --Thomas Jefferson to William Johnson, 1823. ME 15:441

"A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate." --Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774. ME 1:209, Papers 1:134

"Under the law of nature, all men are born free, every one comes into the world with a right to his own person, which includes the liberty of moving and using it at his own will. This is what is called personal liberty, and is given him by the Author of nature, because necessary for his own sustenance." --Thomas Jefferson: Legal Argument, 1770. FE 1:376

"What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:455, Papers 15:393

"Nothing... is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:48

"The evidence of [the] natural right [of expatriation], like that of our right to life, liberty, the use of our faculties, the pursuit of happiness, is not left to the feeble and sophistical investigations of reason, but is impressed on the sense of every man. We do not claim these under the charters of kings or legislators, but under the King of Kings." --Thomas Jefferson to John Manners, 1817. ME 15:124

"Natural rights [are] the objects for the protection of which society is formed and municipal laws established." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1797. ME 9:422

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath?" --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XVIII, 1782. ME 2:227

"Questions of natural right are triable by their conformity with the moral sense and reason of man." --Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on French Treaties, 1793. ME 3:235

"It is a principle that the right to a thing gives a right to the means without which it could not be used, that is to say, that the means follow their end." --Thomas Jefferson: --Thomas Jefferson: Report on Navigation of the Mississippi, 1792. ME 3:180

"The right to use a thing comprehends a right to the means necessary to its use, and without which it would be useless." --Thomas Jefferson to William Carmichael, 1790. ME 8:72

"The Declaration of Independence... [is the] declaratory charter of our rights, and of the rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Adams Wells, 1819. ME 15:200

"Some other natural rights... [have] not yet entered into any declaration of rights." --Thomas Jefferson to John W. Eppes, 1813. ME 13:272

"I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Danbury Baptists, 1802. ME 16:282


The Right to Life and Liberty
"The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them." --Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774. ME 1:211, Papers 1:135

"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual." --Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1819.

"That liberty [is pure] which is to go to all, and not to the few or the rich alone." --Thomas Jefferson to Horatio Gates, 1798. ME 9:441

"In a government bottomed on the will of all, the life and liberty of every individual citizen becomes interesting to all." --Thomas Jefferson: 5th Annual Message, 1805. ME 3:390

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." --Thomas Jefferson to Archibald Stuart, 1791. ME 8:276

"Being myself a warm zealot for the attainment and enjoyment by all mankind of as much liberty as each may exercise without injury to the equal liberty of his fellow citizens, I have lamented that... the endeavors to obtain this should have been attended with the effusion of so much blood." --Thomas Jefferson to Jean Nicholas Demeunier, 1795. FE 7:13


The Pursuit of Happiness
"The Giver of life gave it for happiness and not for wretchedness." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1782. ME 4:196, Papers 6:186

"If [God] has made it a law in the nature of man to pursue his own happiness, He has left him free in the choice of place as well as mode, and we may safely call on the whole body of English jurists to produce the map on which nature has traced for each individual the geographical line which she forbids him to cross in pursuit of happiness." --Thomas Jefferson to John Manners, 1817. ME 15:124

"Perfect happiness, I believe, was never intended by the Deity to be the lot of one of his creatures in this world; but that he has very much put in our power the nearness of our approaches to it, is what I as steadfastly believe." --Thomas Jefferson to John Page, 1763. ME 4:10, Papers 1:10

"The freedom and happiness of man... [are] the sole objects of all legitimate government." --Thomas Jefferson to Thaddeus Kosciusko, 1810. ME 12:369

"[It is a] great truth that industry, commerce and security are the surest roads to the happiness and prosperity of [a] people." --Thomas Jefferson to Francisco Chiappe, 1789. Papers 15:405

"The only orthodox object of the institution of government is to secure the greatest degree of happiness possible to the general mass of those associated under it." --Thomas Jefferson to M. van der Kemp, 1812. ME 13:135

"I sincerely pray that all the members of the human family may, in the time prescribed by the Father of us all, find themselves securely established in the enjoyment of life, liberty, and happiness." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Ellicot Thomas, et al., 1807. ME 16:290

Jefferson on Politics & Government: Inalienable Rights

 

[Contumacious]

I take your point that some people need to think a creator is watching them to make sure they stay on the straight and narrow. ?

I write to emphasize that the term "Creator" as used by Thomas Jefferson did not have religious significance:

Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson


.
Jan.1.1802.

So You are Saying that Inalienable Rights have no Religious significance too? It was used in the same sentence.

Have you ever herd the Term "Jefferson Bible"?

None.

The Founders subcribed to natural law ethics.


.

 

[bill777]

I agree with Mao on this one, a right is anything you can claim at gunpoint.

 

[rubberhead]

The cultural evolution idea is interesting. Are we moving to a social existence that allows complete expression of humanity without restriction?

The only problem is that the closer we get to it, the more vulnerable we are to defectors.

 

[JBeukema]

1. Inalienable Rights


The government of the United States is the result of a revolution in thought.

not really

all the ideas behind it were borrowed from elsewhere

It was founded on the principle that all persons have equal rights

with the caveat that 'people' meant White landed male aristocrats

, and that government is responsible to, and derives its powers from, a free people. To Jefferson and the other Founding Fathers, these ideas were not just a passing intellectual fad, but a recognition of something inherent in the nature of man itself.

it's a recognition of the social contract

The very foundation of government, therefore, rests on the inalienable rights of the people and of each individual composing their mass

wrong. It rests on the consent of the governed.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal;

that was a lie

that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights;

butonly if they're white, they have a penis, and they own land

that among these, are life,

yet they believed in the death penalty and war

liberty

yet they owned slaves

need I go on destroying your bullshit rhetoric?


Are you totally incapable of thinking for yourself? Is that why you rely on the rhetoric of others as a crutch in order to pretend you have a clue?

 

[rubberhead]

Yes... All men are Created Equal... .

No, they're not. Some are born weak and frail or poor and destitute while others are born strong with all the resources they might desire.

Some are born retarded...like you. Seriously, you don't think that's what the phrase "all men are created equal" means, do you? It's not. That's as much help as I'm going to give you.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

I take your point that some people need to think a creator is watching them to make sure they stay on the straight and narrow. ?

I write to emphasize that the term "Creator" as used by Thomas Jefferson did not have religious significance:

Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson


.
Jan.1.1802.

This is yet another impotent screed which seeks to project Jefferson's Danbury letter as representing Jefferson as suggesting that the Church has no means to influence the Government.

It is an intentionally obtuse 'interpretation'; an overt deception and stands as rancid balderdash.

There is no means to separate the US Delcaration of Independence; the Charter of principles on which the US rests; which was authored by Jefferson, from the US Constitution which rests directly upon thus immutable principles; nor can those principles be set distinct from the words which defined them... Words which spoke directly to and literally of "Nature's God."

Jefferson sought to sooth the angst of the Danbury flock regarding their concern that the Government could tax them out of existance, or otherwise influence their means to practice their religion through any number of other means... in essence Jefferson was belying the fear that the government could influence the CHURCH... which Jefferson flatly noted was prohibited by the 'wall of separation' and decidely NOT stating that the Church was prohibited from influencing the government.

In short Jefferson was stating precisely the OPPOSITE of that which the anti-thiests are most likely to imply is being said, when ever this letter is being referenced.

What's more natural law is nothing if it is not the mere notation of the principles of nature which govern this world; all of which stems from the Creator of that nature... who has established those laws.

Such laws thus are inalienable from such... and this without regard for the obtuse ramblings of those who reject the existence of that Creator and by default, the principles relevant to and unseparable from same.

 

[rubberhead]

Which is why atheists are incapable of keeping an oath, right?

No, atheists have less motivation to keep oaths. That is, if they truly are atheists. If you're trying to position yourself as an atheist, then I regret to inform you that you're not. You worship and pray to Human Knowledge, in spite of the fact that you possess so precious little of it.

 

[bill777]

1. Inalienable Rights


The government of the United States is the result of a revolution in thought.

not really

all the ideas behind it were borrowed from elsewhere

It was founded on the principle that all persons have equal rights

with the caveat that 'people' meant White landed male aristocrats



it's a recognition of the social contract



wrong. It rests on the consent of the governed.


that was a lie


butonly if they're white, they have a penis, and they own land

that among these, are life,

yet they believed in the death penalty and war

liberty

yet they owned slaves

need I go on destroying your bullshit rhetoric?


Are you totally incapable of thinking for yourself? Is that why you rely on the rhetoric of others as a crutch in order to pretend you have a clue?

Yawn. Let me guess, you're under the age of 25 and you are currently in college? I've seen these arguments a lot, for many years. You're being dishonest, because you know damn well that the Constitution was a collaborative effort. You call it evil, I call it the best they could do at the time given the climate, and they left the door open to improvement. If you want to paint the founders as evil, you have a long road to hoe.

 

[Intense]

I write to emphasize that the term "Creator" as used by Thomas Jefferson did not have religious significance:

Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson


.
Jan.1.1802.

So You are Saying that Inalienable Rights have no Religious significance too? It was used in the same sentence.

Have you ever herd the Term "Jefferson Bible"?

None.

The Founders subcribed to natural law ethics.


.

False in this sense, good try though. Study Locke for the Founders Perspective, They did.

Interesting read though I got most of it. Seems to be based on Theory, that when some of it's foundation is questioned, unravels.

Just a thought. 2+2=4, is a formula. Pat yourself on the back for getting it right. Why does 2+2=4, is a Philosophical question, who's answer involves the Purpose behind the Reality, not the Reason the Ego may claim.

Emotion Governing Action or Reason? Maybe in the Lower Self, before Conscience Kicks In. What Governs Conscience? What is the Reality beyond All Theory? What Feeds Conscience? What Governs Conscience, after the barriers are Removed? Do We Invent Justice, or Inhibit it? Do We Discover what is laid out with Multiple Purpose, or Plagiarize origin, claim to invent, what was there all along for the find , for the discovery? What is behind what led Us there? What is behind the Science? What is Behind Curiosity?

 

[Intense]

The cultural evolution idea is interesting. Are we moving to a social existence that allows complete expression of humanity without restriction?

The only problem is that the closer we get to it, the more vulnerable we are to defectors.

The Powers that be are moving in the Opposite Direction.

 

[JBeukema]

Yes... All men are Created Equal... .

No, they're not. Some are born weak and frail or poor and destitute while others are born strong with all the resources they might desire.

Some are born retarded...like you. Seriously, you don't think that's what the phrase "all men are created equal" means, do you? It's not. That's as much help as I'm going to give you.

it's meaningless rhetoric

 

[JBeukema]

Which is why atheists are incapable of keeping an oath, right?

No, atheists have less motivation to keep oaths.

That is, if they truly are atheists. If you're trying to position yourself as an atheist, then I regret to inform you that you're not. You worship and pray to Human Knowledge, in spite of the fact that you possess so precious little of it.

damn, you people try hard

How does it feel to be so stupid?

 

[bill777]

No, they're not. Some are born weak and frail or poor and destitute while others are born strong with all the resources they might desire.

Some are born retarded...like you. Seriously, you don't think that's what the phrase "all men are created equal" means, do you? It's not. That's as much help as I'm going to give you.

it's meaningless rhetoric

If you think it's meaningless rhetoric, that says a lot about you. If you can't even understand a fundamental tenet, that says a lot about you.

 

[JBeukema]

I've seen these arguments a lot, for many years. You're being dishonest, because you know damn well that the Constitution was a collaborative effort.

And? That is was a collaborative efrt does nothing to rebut what I have said

you fail

You call it evil,

link? Do feel free to cite a source on that, liar.

 

[bodecea]

Which is why atheists are incapable of keeping an oath, right?

No, atheists have less motivation to keep oaths. That is, if they truly are atheists. If you're trying to position yourself as an atheist, then I regret to inform you that you're not. You worship and pray to Human Knowledge, in spite of the fact that you possess so precious little of it.

I don't know one religious person who would keep their oath if it was in their best interest to break that oath.

 

[JBeukema]

Some are born retarded...like you. Seriously, you don't think that's what the phrase "all men are created equal" means, do you? It's not. That's as much help as I'm going to give you.

it's meaningless rhetoric

If you think it's meaningless rhetoric, that says a lot about you. If you can't even understand a fundamental tenet, that says a lot about you.

The guys who wrote it didn't even believe it

It was simply useful rhetoric to sway the masses

 

[JBeukema]

Which is why atheists are incapable of keeping an oath, right?

No, atheists have less motivation to keep oaths. That is, if they truly are atheists. If you're trying to position yourself as an atheist, then I regret to inform you that you're not. You worship and pray to Human Knowledge, in spite of the fact that you possess so precious little of it.

I don't know one religious person who would keep their oath if it was in their best interest to break that oath.

and then turn and pray for forgiveness

they don't worry about the consequence, because they've convinced themselves that worldly affairs don't matter