West should build bridges with Russia after end of Ukrainian conflict

[rightwinger]

After totally mishandling the phenomenal opportunity the Gorbachev's wise administration offered, there is little hope that today's "diplomats" could do better. America and the rest of the world missed the boat and Russia, along with everyone else, has been paying ever since.

Russia missed the boat

Obama offered normalized relations with the west. Putin slapped his hand away.

Instead, Russia is faced with a destroyed economy and isolation. Russia is becoming the next N Korea

 

[peacefan]

You missed those headlines?

Marjorie Taylor Greene and Thomas Massie have voted against almost every single bill passed by the House to counter Russia's invasion of Ukraine

The House has passed 19 bipartisan bills to aid Ukraine and counter Russia since the war began. Greene voted for just one, and Massie voted for none.

www.businessinsider.com

"Marjorie Taylor Greene and Thomas Massie have voted against almost every single bill passed by the House to counter Russia's invasion of Ukraine"

You missed this headline?

i follow what US politicians do as a group, not per individual.
so yeah, i missed that one.

 

[peacefan]

what carrot would you offer?

How much of Ukraine do you want to give them?

i'd give 'm the end of sanctions as a reward for a partial take-over of Ukraine, specifically the far-eastern and south-eastern sections of Ukraine, where those Russian speakers live.
and Zelensky would gain peace for his people in a slightly smaller country, which ought to be enough together with those hush-hush bribes he's been taking.

 

[peacefan]

100% .
But I find it near possible to believe .
Neither side trusts the other and that might take at least a generation to change much .

well for their own and their children's sakes, i hope they come to some sort of amicable arrangement soon.
and i believe we here in the West have all the power required to make that happen.

I happen to believe that the US is presently in huge trouble on multiple fronts and I imagine Moscow computers are showing the present as the best time to exact the greatest concessions from the US or just ignore them completely , up to the point of genuinely fostering a nuclear weapons war climate .

nah, that blustering about nuclear war and tactical nukes is just signs of frustration in the highest ranks of international politics.
as for Russia ignoring the US, well, their economy is taking a huge hit at the moment due to oil and gas shipments slowing.
so they can't ignore us for long.

 

[rightwinger]

i'd give 'm the end of sanctions as a reward for a partial take-over of Ukraine, specifically the far-eastern and south-eastern sections of Ukraine, where those Russian speakers live.
and Zelensky would gain peace for his people in a slightly smaller country, which ought to be enough together with those hush-hush bribes he's been taking.

So you reward Russia for their unprovoked takeover
Given the humanitarian atrocities in the occupied territory, what makes you think Russia will be treated as liberators?

What kind of peace does Ukraine get?
A promise that Russia won’t invade again?

 

[ReinyDays]

i don't care much for capitalist axioms. "rich getting richer at the expense of the poor", "war is good for the economy", "the people just need to do as they're told", capitalism is rife with idiotic axioms that can and should be replaced with wise humane thinking.



to go from Texas to WW2 Poland is a bit of a stretch. you've just broken a thread!
the Donbass region is full of Russian speakers who indicated in 2 seperate referendums that they want to be a part of Russia.


most of that grain is going to European livestock, not UN anti-starvation schemes.
and those capitalists you so admire, they still want to raise the price of meat in the supermarkets, regardless of that.

to force them to pay for the damages will be a stretch too far.
it's political greed.

American media is reporting these UN anti-starvation schemes are suffering due to the disruption of grain production in The Ukraine ... yet here you report skyrocketing prices for meat in Europe ... maybe both are true ... or is grain flowing out of Ukraine as it was before? ...

Pardon me ... I should be clearer ... I'm against appeasement ... like that practiced in Europe during the interwar period ... therefore, the Russians must be ejected from The Ukraine, and all the damages they caused there repaired ... then, and only then, can we begin to talk about any PEACEFUL transfer of territory ... if the Ukrainians don't want to transfer that territory, Russia cannot be allowed to force the issue ...

They made their bed in 1990 ... now they must lie in it ... those Russians living in Ukraine can simply move to Russia ... or the United States ... there's still room in North Dakota and Saskatchewan ... places the Russians like, but no one else does ...

I hope you're not judging all of capitalism and all rich people by the conduct of Joe and Hunter Biden ... these people are corrupt ... that's different from honest profit ... the richest guy in rural America is the garbage collector ...

I think we agree there needs to be a European solution ... and it's going to be difficult getting any American to even understand what a European solution is ... there's money to be made exploiting the situation, we want Ukrainians buying EU goods, not Russian made ... we don't know why Europeans aren't quick to profiteer ... I don't know where you work, but would you be better off selling your wares to these millions of Ukrainians? ... you know, capitalism ...

 

[peacefan]

So you reward Russia for their unprovoked takeover
Given the humanitarian atrocities in the occupied territory, what makes you think Russia will be treated as liberators?

any occupier who encounters occupied people who tolerate them, ignore them, or treat them as allies, will treat those people with respect.
we the Dutch saw that with the Germans in WW2 for instance.

What kind of peace does Ukraine get?
A promise that Russia won’t invade again?

yes.

 

[ReinyDays]

we the Dutch saw that with the Germans in WW2 for instance.

Do you agree it was best for the Brits to come and eject the Germans? ... I've only heard the Brits side of that, and of course the Dutch who welcome the Brits ...

Maybe not everyone in Dutcherland wanted the Deutchers to leave? ... just askin' ...

 

[peacefan]

American media is reporting these UN anti-starvation schemes are suffering due to the disruption of grain production in The Ukraine ... yet here you report skyrocketing prices for meat in Europe ... maybe both are true ...

i think so.

or is grain flowing out of Ukraine as it was before? ...

i doubt it. there's a massive war going on there. ships are being attacked in the Black Sea, and grain and wheat are considered gold by the Russians.

Pardon me ... I should be clearer ... I'm against appeasement ... like that practiced in Europe during the interwar period ... therefore, the Russians must be ejected from The Ukraine, and all the damages they caused there repaired ... then, and only then, can we begin to talk about any PEACEFUL transfer of territory ... if the Ukrainians don't want to transfer that territory, Russia cannot be allowed to force the issue ...

Zelensky will never give up the territory, unless he's forced to.
There's still a window to make that happen.
And for all those who lost their lives or suffered in other ways over there, i think the West owes them that peace.

They made their bed in 1990 ... now they must lie in it ... those Russians living in Ukraine can simply move to Russia ... or the United States ... there's still room in North Dakota and Saskatchewan ... places the Russians like, but no one else does ...

I hope you're not judging all of capitalism and all rich people by the conduct of Joe and Hunter Biden ... these people are corrupt ... that's different from honest profit ... the richest guy in rural America is the garbage collector ...

i'm not judging all of capitalism, and i do agree with your assessment that the Bidens have been involved in questionable influence peddling schemes, maybe even bribery.

I think we agree there needs to be a European solution ... and it's going to be difficult getting any American to even understand what a European solution is ... there's money to be made exploiting the situation, we want Ukrainians buying EU goods, not Russian made ... we don't know why Europeans aren't quick to profiteer ... I don't know where you work, but would you be better off selling your wares to these millions of Ukrainians? ... you know, capitalism ...

i run my own internet startup.
but Ukranians wouldn't be able to afford the prices i'm going to charge for my commercial services once i get that code up and running, nor would their internet connection to my Dutch server be fast enough.

 

[peacefan]

Do you agree it was best for the Brits to come and eject the Germans? ... I've only heard the Brits side of that, and of course the Dutch who welcome the Brits ...

Maybe not everyone in Dutcherland wanted the Deutchers to leave? ... just askin' ...

oh, we only played to the sentiments of their soldiers, allowing them in our homes for a coffee on occasion.
but we also had a resistance movement that was actively burning down warehouses with documents about the Jews, and which did assassinations of German troops and officers.

after the war, all those who had supported the Germans (by for instance fighting for the Germans, or women who slept with German troops), were shunned and disgraced by the rest of our society.
and that echoes to today, where we openly shun a new nationalist political party (pvv.nl) that is very anti-immigrant.

me? i would've been in the resistance. for sure.

 

[rightwinger]

any occupier who encounters occupied people who tolerate them, ignore them, or treat them as allies, will treat those people with respect.
we the Dutch saw that with the Germans in WW2 for instance.

yes.

Didn’t Putin promise not to invade again after Crimea?
Won’t Russia just wait ten years, rebuild his military and invade again?

How about as part of your “peace agreement” we give Russia those occupied territory and make the rest of Ukraine members of NATO with NATO troops deployed just to be safe?

 

[peacefan]

Didn’t Putin promise not to invade again after Crimea?
Won’t Russia just wait ten years, rebuild his military and invade again?

possibly. a firm deterrent, like you suggest below here, *is* needed.

How about as part of your “peace agreement” we give Russia those occupied territory and make the rest of Ukraine members of NATO with NATO troops deployed just to be safe?

 

[AlexanderPK]

Some of us have interest in munitions manufacturing ... are we just supposed to stop waxing our LearJets or something ... War puts people to work ... War puts food in people bellies ... War puts milk in baby bottles ...

That's the knock on the Slavs ... they're all murderous ... so, best they murder each other ... they need to solve their own problems, it's been a thousand years, you'd think they'd have made some progress ...

The way things are going now in your hell-hole you'll be murdering yourselves, if not already, and hopefully leave the slavs to themselves at last to let them solve their problems on their own.

 

[peacefan]

@ everyone : i've changed my thinking a little bit.
we've got a spring offensive planned for the Ukranians.
let's give that a chance.

but at the same time, i'd like to see heavy political pressure placed on Zelensky for him to make public national statements in which he grants Ukranians the freedom to speak openly about their desire to continue the war against Russia.
and if it turns out that the average Ukranian wants peace, then the West should supply strictly defensive military tech only to Ukraine from that point forward.

 

[rightwinger]

@ everyone : i've changed my thinking a little bit.
we've got a spring offensive planned for the Ukranians.
let's give that a chance.

but at the same time, i'd like to see heavy political pressure placed on Zelensky for him to make public national statements in which he grants Ukranians the freedom to speak openly about their desire to continue the war against Russia.
and if it turns out that the average Ukranian wants peace, then the West should supply strictly defensive military tech only to Ukraine from that point forward.

What about equal pressure on Putin to see if his people support his senseless war and unnecessary deaths.

That is how the US ended the Vietnam War

 

[ReinyDays]

Zelensky will never give up the territory, unless he's forced to.

That's why Ukrainians elected him ... to bring Ukrainian territory more firmly under Ukrainian control ... I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just this is the way it is ...

i run my own internet startup.
but Ukranians wouldn't be able to afford the prices i'm going to charge for my commercial services once i get that code up and running, nor would their internet connection to my Dutch server be fast enough.

Tax your Middle Class some more and install faster internet there, and Moldovia while your at it ... God would love you special if you brought internet service to Bessarabia ... those poor folk need all the help they can get ...

[sigh] ...

The sad part is how poorly the Russian troops are managing ... every little corner of that country with any aspirations of independence are thinking they can beat the Russians too ... I think the EU countries need to stock up on bullets, this won't end well ...

 

[ReinyDays]

@ everyone : i've changed my thinking a little bit.
we've got a spring offensive planned for the Ukranians.
let's give that a chance.

but at the same time, i'd like to see heavy political pressure placed on Zelensky for him to make public national statements in which he grants Ukranians the freedom to speak openly about their desire to continue the war against Russia.
and if it turns out that the average Ukranian wants peace, then the West should supply strictly defensive military tech only to Ukraine from that point forward.

The average Ukrainian wants peace ... how is that even a question? ... will the Russians withdraw and rebuild what they've destroyed? ... because only then, and without threat of violence, can we fairly ask this of the average Ukrainian ... "Now that you are whole again, do you wish to give this territory to Russia?" ...

 

[ReinyDays]

The way things are going now in your hell-hole you'll be murdering yourselves, if not already, and hopefully leave the slavs to themselves at last to let them solve their problems on their own.

Yeah, we were hip to that May of 1945 ... what a mess ...

 

[luiza]

What about equal pressure on Putin to see if his people support his senseless war and unnecessary deaths.

That is how the US ended the Vietnam War

US ended the war because they were out thought and out fought .
Yet again .

 

[rightwinger]

US ended the war because they were out thought and out fought .
Yet again .

Hardly

We finally realized it was a war not worth fighting
Russia will eventually realise the same thing