Were Most Of America's Founding Fathers - Christians

[JakeStarkey]

Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, t renders the heart torpid or produces only atheists or fanatics. As an engine of power, it serves the purpose of despotism, and as ameans of wealth, the avarice of priests, but so far as respects the good of man in general it leads to nothing here or hereafter. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782


And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

Good thing our Christian founders saw to it that you could freely voice your opinion. I will thank them on your behalf and thank God for inspiring them to create the best possible government that a group of fallen men could possibly create. Their wisdom suggests that they fully understood than men needed to be kept in check for if too much power is given to too few men then corruption would certainly be born.

I dare any secular/humanist institution to provide a blueprint for a better form of Government than our Christian founders provided for us.

That is exactly the type of government the Founders made, which protects belief as well as non-belief.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The primary leaders of the so-called founding fathers of our nation were not Bible-believing Christians; they were deists.

Not correct. Washington, Madison, Adams, Monroe, Morris, Jay, Henry were Christians: from very weak to very strong.

Almost all were influenced by Enlightenment principles, some of which were Deist in concept.

 

[guno]

"In 1776 our fathers endeavored to retire the gods from politics. They declared that "all
governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed." This was a
contradiction of the then political ideas of the world; it was, as many believed, an act of pure
blasphemy a renunciation of the Deity. ...It was a notice to all churches and priests that
thereafter mankind would govern and protect themselves. Politically it tore down every altar and denied the authority of every "sacred book" and appealed from the Providence of God to the Providence of man."

Ingersoll

 

[Newby]

But not fundamentalist propaganda of today.

The documents clearly teach that the Founders were afraid of organized religion being a part of government.

That's why the Constitution is secular.

That's why the states got rid of established churches.

That's why modern Christians are not going to let fundamentlist dogma into our history books.

Provide some examples of what you would define as 'fundamentalist dogma'?

Actually, since you are a fundamentalist, give us some examples yourself.

I'm a fundamentalist? What makes me a fundamentalist?

 

[Newby]

Selectively picking and choosing and ignoring documents.

That is propaganda, not history.

Can you give an example of what has been misrepresented by 'selectively picking and choosing and/or ignoring'?

The article I posted from TFM does that. Go back and read it.

No, actually it does not, I did read it. All it does is make unfounded accusations about a text book that he wrote without one sentence or fact that refuted anything specific, and no details as to why anything that was in the text book was inaccurate or incorrect. Actually very similar to what you do on this forum, no surprises there.

 

[Newby]

"In 1776 our fathers endeavored to retire the gods from politics. They declared that "all
governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed." This was a
contradiction of the then political ideas of the world; it was, as many believed, an act of pure
blasphemy a renunciation of the Deity. ...It was a notice to all churches and priests that
thereafter mankind would govern and protect themselves. Politically it tore down every altar and denied the authority of every "sacred book" and appealed from the Providence of God to the Providence of man."

Ingersoll

Certainly an interesting interpretation and one could view it that way. Altho, it could also be viewed that since up to that point in time kings, royalty, aristocracy and those who ruled, did so supposedly by divine providence. Founding a government that only governed by the will of the people, accountable to the people was a new concept. One that those in power obviously vehemently rejected. But it was also a concept that could just as easily attributed to the Christian belief that men should serve and bow to only one God, and that in God's eyes all men are equal, that none are 'king' by any 'divine' right to hold power over others.

 

[DriftingSand]

The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes
to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the
caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and
hypocrites.
When we see religion split into so many thousands of sects, and I may say Christianity
itself divided into it's thousands also, who are disputing, anathematizing, and where the
laws permit, burning and torturing one another for abstractions which no one of them
understand, and which are indeed beyond the comprehension of the human mind, into
which of the chambers of this Bedlam would a man wish to thrust himself. The sum of all
religion as expressed by it's best preacher, "fear god and love thy neighbor,' contains
no mystery, needs no explanation - but this wont do. It gives no scope to make dupes;
priests could not live by it."
..........Letter to George Logan, November 12, 1816

"Creeds have been the bane of the Christian church ... made of Christendom a
slaughter-house."
..........To Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822

Wow! Nothing to do with the OP. Thanks a lot. You are free to go.

By the way ... don't forget all of those early Christians who fought and died so that you could have the freedom to hate them. A little gratitude might me in order.

Didn't you accept TJ as Christian? But if you are going to stand by this, then you must stand by that TJ clearly meant seperation of church and state.

That's half of the story. He didn't stop with "separation of church and state." He meant that the church was to be protected from the state but he had no problem with the state being influenced by the church.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACufmHNFE98]A Very Quick Explanation Of "Separation Of Church And State" By David Barton - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIFe3EqBFO4]David Barton-Separation of Church and State.flv - YouTube[/ame]

 

[peach174]

Northwest Ordinance for future States that will join the Republic.

Adopted by the Congress of the Confederation in 1787, the Northwest Ordinance set forth a model for the expansion of the American republic. Providing a governing structure for the territory that would later become Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, and Wisconsin, it prohibited slavery, protected religious liberty, and encouraged education. Following the adoption of the Constitution, the new Congress passed the Northwest Ordinance again in 1789


Section 13. And for extending the fundamental principles of civil and religious liberty, which form the basis whereon these republics, their laws and constitutions, are erected; to fix and establish those principles as the basis of all laws, constitutions, and governments, which forever hereafter shall be formed in the said territory; to provide, also, for the establishment of States, and permanent government therein, and for their admission to a share in the Federal councils on an equal footing with the original States, at as early periods as may be consistent with the general interest.

Article III
Religion, morality, and knowledge being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.

 

[thebrucebeat]

Wow! Nothing to do with the OP. Thanks a lot. You are free to go.

By the way ... don't forget all of those early Christians who fought and died so that you could have the freedom to hate them. A little gratitude might me in order.

Didn't you accept TJ as Christian? But if you are going to stand by this, then you must stand by that TJ clearly meant seperation of church and state.

That's half of the story. He didn't stop with "separation of church and state." He meant that the church was to be protected from the state but he had no problem with the state being influenced by the church.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACufmHNFE98]A Very Quick Explanation Of "Separation Of Church And State" By David Barton - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIFe3EqBFO4]David Barton-Separation of Church and State.flv - YouTube[/ame]

No, that is what Barton says.
The legal minds for over 50 years have interpreted the establishment clause as not having government appearing to support any given faith tradition or none at all.

 

[DriftingSand]

Jefferson also owned slaves and wrote his own bible.

Doesn't change the fact that most of our founders were Christians and incorporated several of the tenets of Christianity into the founding documents.

Yes, yes, yes. There are basic tenets in most religions (many earlier than Christianity), and many cultures that espouse attributes which are positive to human societal structures.

Do you find it all curious that the Christian founders still decided to keep a throttle on Christianity (and all religions) by framing a model of governance that favored no religion?

The principles that sustained the development of the U.S. Constitution were a distillation of centuries of Judeo-Christian principles and convictions, ancient Greek and Roman philosophy, the Magna Carta, the work of Locke, Hume, Rousseau, Paine, et al. into a codified framework of law. Christianity was less important than you hope.

First of all ... thanks for recognizing that our founders were Christians rather than secularists or deists. That's a clear step in the right direction.

Secondly, logic dictates that when a group of Christians found a nation that it's for their benefit and the benefit of their posterity. So, we should be able to conclude that the "Christian founders" didn't create a nation where their posterity would later be persecuted by folks who don't like Christians. Does that make sense? It should!

So, common sense dictates that we should understand the intent of our founders was to create a nation that would be Christian-friendly and fully protective of the Christian faith and the tenets related to that faith.

 

[peach174]

The majority were Christian.

Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and two were Roman Catholics (D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons).

Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (or Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists.

A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson (who created the so-called "Jefferson Bible") and Benjamin Franklin.
Others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists.

Historian Gregg L. Frazer argues that the leading Founders (Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) were neither Christians nor Deists, but rather supporters of a hybrid "theistic rationalism".

 

[Iceweasel]

One thing is for sure the Founding fathers who were christian weren't the bible thumping cretines we see today

That's true, they'd be really old by now.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Didn't you accept TJ as Christian? But if you are going to stand by this, then you must stand by that TJ clearly meant seperation of church and state.

That's half of the story. He didn't stop with "separation of church and state." He meant that the church was to be protected from the state but he had no problem with the state being influenced by the church.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACufmHNFE98]A Very Quick Explanation Of "Separation Of Church And State" By David Barton - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIFe3EqBFO4]David Barton-Separation of Church and State.flv - YouTube[/ame]

No, that is what Barton says.
The legal minds for over 50 years have interpreted the establishment clause as not having government appearing to support any given faith tradition or none at all.

David Barton cherry picks, which distorts Jefferson's message.

You have been shown the evidence of this before.

You fail.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Can you give an example of what has been misrepresented by 'selectively picking and choosing and/or ignoring'?

The article I posted from TFM does that. Go back and read it.

No, actually it does not, I did read it. All it does is make unfounded accusations about a text book that he wrote without one sentence or fact that refuted anything specific, and no details as to why anything that was in the text book was inaccurate or incorrect. Actually very similar to what you do on this forum, no surprises there.

It does the opposite. Have you read the gentleman's careful and objective rebuttal to Barton? Of course not.

Your type of attitude we dealt with at the school board in this manner: respectfully and dismissively.

If you want pseudo-history taught to your children, send them to a far right social conservative school.

 

[JohnA]

I came across a couple of Youtube clips not long ago that were truly enlightening (for me at least). Like most products of the Public School (fool?) System I was kept in the dark concerning the USA's Christian roots. If we (young, impressionable students) were told anything we were told that Jefferson and Franklin were deists but not Christians.

Do you know the preamble for all 50 states?
It might surprise some people.

The Fifty States Reference God in their Constitutions-Truth!

Yes. I've posted the entire list several times on other forums. Every state preamble mentions and gives thanks or honor to a "Supreme Being." Not all the states use the same terminology but all give credit to a Divine God.

there lies the problem *divine god * which one ???

whether the foundling fathers were christians quakers babtists or whatever does nt matter, they wrote the constitution as a secular nation respecting all faiths ..
nowhere does the constitution refer to america as a ** christian nation *

 

[kjw47]

I came across a couple of Youtube clips not long ago that were truly enlightening (for me at least). Like most products of the Public School (fool?) System I was kept in the dark concerning the USA's Christian roots. If we (young, impressionable students) were told anything we were told that Jefferson and Franklin were deists but not Christians.

I've come to find out that the two least Christian founders were still sympathetic to and allied with the many devout Christians who helped create the great nation of the United States of America and signed her important, founding documents.

Anyway, please watch these very short videos and let everyone know what you think.

Mike Huckabee David Barton Founders of the Constitution 080109.flv - YouTube
U.S. Capitol Tour with David Barton.flv - YouTube

Reality--
Jesus taught to pay taxes--our founding Fathers taught---kill the ones that want taxes and steal this country like they tried. Then we can hide behind Jesus name and slaughter 10 million Indians, make black men slaves, and treat yellow man like dogs---- if you see Christian in this---you are being fooled. Satan owns and operstes every govt on earth --that is why this will soon be a reality--rev 16, Daniel 2:44--also this proves the usa is not Christian--2 peter 2:19

 

[Hollie]

Doesn't change the fact that most of our founders were Christians and incorporated several of the tenets of Christianity into the founding documents.

Yes, yes, yes. There are basic tenets in most religions (many earlier than Christianity), and many cultures that espouse attributes which are positive to human societal structures.

Do you find it all curious that the Christian founders still decided to keep a throttle on Christianity (and all religions) by framing a model of governance that favored no religion?

The principles that sustained the development of the U.S. Constitution were a distillation of centuries of Judeo-Christian principles and convictions, ancient Greek and Roman philosophy, the Magna Carta, the work of Locke, Hume, Rousseau, Paine, et al. into a codified framework of law. Christianity was less important than you hope.

First of all ... thanks for recognizing that our founders were Christians rather than secularists or deists. That's a clear step in the right direction.

Secondly, logic dictates that when a group of Christians found a nation that it's for their benefit and the benefit of their posterity. So, we should be able to conclude that the "Christian founders" didn't create a nation where their posterity would later be persecuted by folks who don't like Christians. Does that make sense? It should!

So, common sense dictates that we should understand the intent of our founders was to create a nation that would be Christian-friendly and fully protective of the Christian faith and the tenets related to that faith.

First of all..... You should acquaint yourself with the historical record which identifies that not all the FF's were Christian. Some were secularists and Deists.

Common sense would dictate that when you misrepresent the historical record (or in your case, the hysterical record), what follows will be misrepresentation as well.

 

[Iceweasel]

A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson (who created the so-called "Jefferson Bible") and Benjamin Franklin.
Others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists.

Historian Gregg L. Frazer argues that the leading Founders (Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) were neither Christians nor Deists, but rather supporters of a hybrid "theistic rationalism".

Jefferson was a deist, he eliminated the supernatural aspects in his bible. Deism is rational theism as I understand it. I consider myself a deist.

 

[JohnA]

I like Christians. I go to Walmart on Sunday mornings and never have to wait in line for the cashier....

i do as well,
but because of baptist t having to much power in the past i cant buy booze before 12 pm why not ?
i dont object to them going to church on a day other than sunday so why do they object to me drinking alcohol on a day called sunday ?another case of injecting somebody elses faith on others ,,

 

[DriftingSand]

The majority were Christian.

Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and two were Roman Catholics (D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons).

Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (or Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists.

A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson (who created the so-called "Jefferson Bible") and Benjamin Franklin.
Others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists.

Historian Gregg L. Frazer argues that the leading Founders (Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) were neither Christians nor Deists, but rather supporters of a hybrid "theistic rationalism".

Great information. I'm compiling as much information as I can. Can you link to your source so I can add it to my growing collection? Thank you much.