Well Shit, No One Told Me

[RadiomanATL]

Ravi, Zoom-boing's problem has nothing to do with Phosphates.

Uh, yeah it does. They took it out last summer and the dishes have been coming out of the dishwasher cloudy, not as clean (yes, I rinse them first always have. Shouldn't have to as that's what a dishwasher is for . . . ) and generally crappy.

Sounds like hard water and calcium deposits.

Yup.

 

[RadiomanATL]

Some suggestions I've come across:

If you have hard water use Lemi-Shine.

Use vinegar and/or lemon juice in the rinse dispenser, rather than a rinse agent.

Add some liquid bleach in with your dish soap.

Go to the hardware and pick up a box of TSP (uh, make sure it really has phosphates in it and isn't phosphate-free) and add a few tspns to your detergent. I did this last night but didn't add very much because I have no clue how much to add. The glasses felt better this morning and one or two looked a little better, but our glasses (the window panes ones in the pic I posted) are not smooth on the inside, they're 'window paned' (the design) so I think it's going to take a bit before I fix this on them. I'm going to try soaking them in half vinegar and half hot water to see if I can get rid of the majority of the film, and continue to add TSP into the dishwasher.

They give some suggestions in the video too.

I'll try other brands of dishwashing soap as well (thanks for the suggestions) but if the dishes and glasses continue to remain filmy and cloudy, I'll continue to add TSP until they come up with a real fix.


Anyone know if bleach, vinegar, lemon juice will harm the mechanisms of a dishwasher?

Bleach will harm them. Don't use it.

 

[RadiomanATL]

I'm sure if I read through this thread, someone will have already told you that only certain states ban phosphates (and for good reason). You may miss the phosphates in your laundry or dishwasher cycles, but what if you had no clean water? Which would you miss the most?

States Ban Phosphate-Laden Dishwasher Soap- Appliance.Net - home and kitchen appliances - news reviews ratings recalls authorized repairs store locator

All 50 states have taken it out of dishwashing detergent.

So the water that drains and go back to the treatment plant, gets treated, nearly all of the water comes out the other end clean, but they ban it.

Agriculture uses it in fertilizer . . . is it banned there? No. Does it go through any treatment after they use it? No. Does it leech through the ground into lakes/streams, etc. ? Yep.

That they want to keep the small amount that may remain after treatment out of water ways is terrific. But they banned it before any good, usable fix was found. Typical.

Probably the reason it's still okay to use in fertilizer is because by the time the food product reaches the market for consumption, it's gone through so many other processes the phosphate is gone. Who knows?

Um, phosphates on the food isn't the issue.

It's the phosphates they dump everywhere to fertilize, which then contaminate the water.

Who do you think is a bigger polluter of phosphates? Agri-business, which dumps them onto the ground, or dishwashers where the water is treated and phosphates are removed?

No contest. Just more feel-good legislation that will have zero impact on solving the issue.

 

[Ravi]

All 50 states have taken it out of dishwashing detergent.

So the water that drains and go back to the treatment plant, gets treated, nearly all of the water comes out the other end clean, but they ban it.

Agriculture uses it in fertilizer . . . is it banned there? No. Does it go through any treatment after they use it? No. Does it leech through the ground into lakes/streams, etc. ? Yep.

That they want to keep the small amount that may remain after treatment out of water ways is terrific. But they banned it before any good, usable fix was found. Typical.

Probably the reason it's still okay to use in fertilizer is because by the time the food product reaches the market for consumption, it's gone through so many other processes the phosphate is gone. Who knows?

Um, phosphates on the food isn't the issue.

It's the phosphates they dump everywhere to fertilize, which then contaminate the water.

Who do you think is a bigger polluter of phosphates? Agri-business, which dumps them onto the ground, or dishwashers where the water is treated and phosphates are removed?

No contest. Just more feel-good legislation that will have zero impact on solving the issue.

The average household runs the dishwasher once a day...that is a rather large amount of phosphates being dumped daily. My understanding of phosphate removal at water treatment centers is that many are not set up to remove it. Not to mention that it costs money. It makes more sense to just stop using phosphates.

 

[RadiomanATL]

Probably the reason it's still okay to use in fertilizer is because by the time the food product reaches the market for consumption, it's gone through so many other processes the phosphate is gone. Who knows?

Um, phosphates on the food isn't the issue.

It's the phosphates they dump everywhere to fertilize, which then contaminate the water.

Who do you think is a bigger polluter of phosphates? Agri-business, which dumps them onto the ground, or dishwashers where the water is treated and phosphates are removed?

No contest. Just more feel-good legislation that will have zero impact on solving the issue.

The average household runs the dishwasher once a day...that is a rather large amount of phosphates being dumped daily. My understanding of phosphate removal at water treatment centers is that many are not set up to remove it. Not to mention that it costs money. It makes more sense to just stop using phosphates.

But ceasing the use of phosphates in dishwashing detergent will have no impact unless there is a ban on them in agribusiness as well.

So once again we're back to feel good legislation with no real world impact.

And once a day? Are you a clean freak Ravi?

 

[Ravi]

So the powerball tablets are the answer...I've been using them for two weeks and the dishes are cleaner than I have ever seen them.

I actually look forward to emptying the dishwasher lately.



FINISH® POWERBALL® Tabs: Dishwasher Tablets Plus JET-DRY® | FINISH®

 

[Zoom-boing]

I switched to Finish d/w soap and like it better than Cascade. Also when the rinse thing was half empty I added distilled vinegar. That works great. I'm still using a small amount of tsp though because our water is hard as a rock. Might give these powerballs a shot, depending on price, but still . . . .until they get rid of phosphates from agriculture and such I don't think the impact of taking it out of dish washing soap will be much. I'd rather the treatment plants figure out a way to remove it before returning the water to waterways and just charge me more for it.

 

[Ernie S.]

So six months or so ago I forgot to fill up the rinse agent dispenser in the dishwasher. It was empty for about a week when I realized it. Things weren't getting as clean but the glasses in particular looked like crap. A white coating of something on them that hand washing wasn't removing. I've been making sure that damn little dispenser thingy has been topped up full for the past six months and guess what? The dishes still look and feel like crap. So I thought that maybe the dishwasher was breaking and I started looking stuff up online.

My dishwasher is just peachy but the greenies have done it again, as uncle has banned phosphate in dish detergents. Well color me in the dark on this one. Phosphate was the main cleaning ingredient in dish washing soap. They banned it from laundry detergents back in the 90's. I always thought it was my machine putting little holes in the clothes. Think again.

Now I'm all for keeping pollution down to as little impact on the environment as possible. BUT . . . why did they ban it when there is no substitute for it? I'm now using more energy and water to clean my dishes because now things will have to be wash and/or rewashed in vinegar/hot water/dish soap to try and get the film off. Hand washing uses more energy than a dish washer. And my time isn't worth shit to uncle so I won't even bother mentioning that.

Government, putting the cart before the horse . . . again.

Check into a water softener. It will make your soap more efficient and eliminate the crap that collects on your dishes, shower doors and pipes.

 

[Ravi]

I switched to Finish d/w soap and like it better than Cascade. Also when the rinse thing was half empty I added distilled vinegar. That works great. I'm still using a small amount of tsp though because our water is hard as a rock. Might give these powerballs a shot, depending on price, but still . . . .until they get rid of phosphates from agriculture and such I don't think the impact of taking it out of dish washing soap will be much. I'd rather the treatment plants figure out a way to remove it before returning the water to waterways and just charge me more for it.

According to Consumer Reports they are the least expensive per load ($.22). I have very hard water as well and the tablets come with a built in water softener.

 

[Zoom-boing]

I switched to Finish d/w soap and like it better than Cascade. Also when the rinse thing was half empty I added distilled vinegar. That works great. I'm still using a small amount of tsp though because our water is hard as a rock. Might give these powerballs a shot, depending on price, but still . . . .until they get rid of phosphates from agriculture and such I don't think the impact of taking it out of dish washing soap will be much. I'd rather the treatment plants figure out a way to remove it before returning the water to waterways and just charge me more for it.

According to Consumer Reports they are the least expensive per load ($.22). I have very hard water as well and the tablets come with a built in water softener.

What do they use for the water softener?

 

[Ravi]

I switched to Finish d/w soap and like it better than Cascade. Also when the rinse thing was half empty I added distilled vinegar. That works great. I'm still using a small amount of tsp though because our water is hard as a rock. Might give these powerballs a shot, depending on price, but still . . . .until they get rid of phosphates from agriculture and such I don't think the impact of taking it out of dish washing soap will be much. I'd rather the treatment plants figure out a way to remove it before returning the water to waterways and just charge me more for it.

According to Consumer Reports they are the least expensive per load ($.22). I have very hard water as well and the tablets come with a built in water softener.

What do they use for the water softener?

I don't know...probably not phosphates.

We have a water softener for our house and it uses salt.

 

[Zoom-boing]

According to Consumer Reports they are the least expensive per load ($.22). I have very hard water as well and the tablets come with a built in water softener.

What do they use for the water softener?

I don't know...probably not phosphates.

We have a water softener for our house and it uses salt.

I went to the link you provided and at the bottom of the page there's another link for ingredients. Date at the bottom of that page is 2011-2013. Here's a list of ingredients.

Ingredients List

Ingredients Function
Sodium Bicarbonate Cleaning Agent- Builder
Sodium Carbonate Cleaning Agent - Alkalinity
Sodium Percarbonate Cleaning Agent - Bleaching Agent
Sodium Citrate (Dihydrate) Cleaning Agent- Builder
Polyethylene glycol Binding Agent
TAED Bleach Activator
Sodium Polyacrylate Antiredeposition Agent
Fatty Alcohol Polyglycolether Cleaning Agent
Microcrystalline Cellulose Filler
Protease Enzyme Cleaning Agent - Enzyme
Citric Acid (Anhydrous) Cleaning Agent - Organic Acid
Tetrasodium Etidronate Chelating Agent
Sodium Silicate Cleaning Agent - Alkalinity
Glycerin Solvent
Amylase Enzyme Cleaning Agent- Enzyme
Water Diluent
Fragrance Fragrance
D&C Red 7 Ca Lake Colorant
Magnesium Stearate Cosmetic Ingredient
Benzotriazol Preservative
Acid Blue 182 Colorant
Sodium Tripolyphosphate Cleaning Agent - Builder
Sodium Perborate Cleaning Agent - Bleach (Oxygen)
Sodium Silicates Cleaning Agent - Alkalinity
Zinc Sulfate Cleaning Agent

Product Page

No wonder the dishes are getting clean, they didn't take out the phosphates just reduced the amount in the product!



I pulled the ingredient info for the same product from July 2009. It's a pdf file so I can only link it. It lists sodium tripolyphosphate as the first ingredient while the new stuff (above) lists it closer to the bottom, meaning there is less of it in the product.

http://www.rb-msds.com.au/uploadedFiles/pdf/Finish Powerball Tablets-v9-31204.pdf

TSP, a little goes a long way baby!

 

[Ravi]

huh...that sounds nuts.

This one has no TSP:

Product Page

But yours was also called P-Free.

 

[Zoom-boing]

huh...that sounds nuts.

This one has no TSP:

Product Page

But yours was also called P-Free.

Maybe if they have less than xx amount of tsp they can call it phosphate-free?

I looked and that orange tab one was the only one listed with tsp. Hmmm . . . . that's just weird.

I can't pronounce half of the ingredients on any of the lists.