We need to drop the colorization of 'Nationalist'.

[MarathonMike]

I went back & looked up the comment I was referencing. Ray states he's a separatist however irrespective of which one he claims, he's still a racist (a racist separatist) based on his belief that the white race is superior to the Black race. These beliefs are evident in his comment history such as this one in which I asked him which he was:

Affirmative action, helpful or harmful?
View attachment 804323

I was wondering if you were going to show up to try and derail the discussion of Nationalism and smear it all up with Racism. And here you are doing just that!

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Show me the post where I said it is ALWAYS a good thing. I stated that it is a good thing. Period. I also recognize, as I clearly pointed out what the Democrats have done, it is quite easy to hijack Nationalism into something more insidious than love of country.

You said in your OP and but in bold emphasis that: “Nationalism is a good thing.”

Right here you state again that “It is a good thing. Period.”These statements are naive and wrong, and are what I object to. They are wrong now and “always” will be inadequate as a normative statement.

I leave off describing my many other objections to the ultra-partisan things you say, to better enable us all to calmly concentrate on the main issue of what “pure” nationalism is, and how it is not just “a good thing.”

Nationalism itself is “not a good thing. Period.” but rather more and more a power-seeking destructive force in the world. Orwell tries to describe the same nature of “nationalism” in the quote somebody else already put forward:

 

[MarathonMike]

You said in your OP and but in bold emphasis that: “Nationalism is a good thing.”

Right here you admit you stated that “It is a good thing. Period.” These statements are naive and wrong, and are what I object to. I leave off describing my many other objections to the ultra-partisan things what you say, so as to concentrate on the main issue of what nationalism is. I gave many historical and also present examples of how often nationalism itself is “not a good thing. Period.” but rather a power-seeking destructive force in the world. Orwell tries to describe the same nature of “nationalism” in the quote somebody else already put forward:View attachment 804326

The entire point of my thread is TAKING BACK the inherently good term of Nationalism from the already Racially corrupted term the Democrats created. I know very well the history of how Nationalism can go wrong, but the way I see it, passive Patriotism is not working in the good ol USA. We are losing this country so in my opinion an American Nationalist movement that pushes back against the Democratic Party Regime in power makes perfect sense. Otherwise, it's down the tubes we go.

 

[toobfreak]

I'm glad I started this thread. It reveals how effective the Democratic Party is at creating terms to smear and divide.

One great difference between conservatives and liberals is this Mike:

1. Conservatives become conservative by constantly questioning and reassessing everything they are told and believe, until their views are whittled down to an irreducible remainer which holds up under every test, again changing as soon as they find a new flaw in their beliefs.
2. Liberals become liberals by never questioning, doubting or reassessing anything they are taught to believe. You could sooner chop through a foot thick block of concrete with a bat then ever get them to change their minds on anything. They are simply right about everything all the time and know it all.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

What you are going to give up that easy? I understood your post and it was very well thought out. You just can't stand the thought of agreeing with me so you have to manufacture something.

As you see I already responded, but I appreciate seeing that you now think my long comment was “very well thought out.” That pleases me and I don’t mind you or anyone agreeing with me — if you really do.

I must say however I don’t see how you could really have “understood” my post and still argue the way you do about many things. I just will have to say I disagree with your latest comment #123 that seems to argue that today’s Democrats “corrupted” the definition of “nationalism” or invented the term “white nationalism.”

Anyway, I’ve said my piece on “nationalism” as well as I can … and it is time for me to get to bed!

 

[MarathonMike]

As you see I already responded, but I appreciate seeing that you now think my long comment was “very well thought out.” That pleases me and I don’t mind you or anyone agreeing with me — if you really do.

I must say however I don’t see how you could really have “understood” my post and still argue the way you do about many things. I just will have to say I disagree with your latest comment #123 that seems to argue that today’s Democrats “corrupted” the definition of “nationalism” or invented the term “white nationalism.”

Anyway, I’ve said my piece on “nationalism” as well as I can … and it is time for me to get to bed!

My argument is quite succinct. Nationalism is a good thing, White Nationalism is a corruption of the term used to smear White people, Conservatives, Trump supporters etc as Racists. And I believe it is time for an American Nationalist Movement that completely rejects any association with Race, Creed or Color. No more, no less.

 

[White 6]

My argument is quite succinct. Nationalism is a good thing, White Nationalism is a corruption of the term used to smear White people, Conservatives, Trump supporters etc as Racists. And I believe it is time for an American Nationalist Movement that completely rejects any association with Race, Creed or Color. No more, no less.

Not all conservative are white nationalists by any means, even if they are white. The ones that have been part and party to white nationalist movement are racists. Simply claiming now, they do not wish to be counted as racist, but simply nationalist, will not impress or change any minds. I am glad, our governor shut down the plans for the white nationalist rally bunch, had been in Charlottesville, to come for rally in Middle Tennessee. He is Republican. He is white. He is conservative. He is patriotic and believes in this country, but he knew we didn't need the kind of trouble the white nationalist movement brings with it, in our state. That was about 5 years ago, but they have not changed. They just want to hide their toxicity behind a Nationalist label, as they shot the with nationalist label with their own actions and there will be no magical redefinition.

 

[MisterBeale]

Another non link, this time to an ambiguous term.

 

[MisterBeale]

Yeah, no kidding the masses can be manipulated. That's all we have been seeing these last few years. My point is, we no longer have an even playing field, and the Democrats are pulling every lever to gain more and more control over the narrative. That includes smearing NATIONALIST, WHITE NATIONALIST and WHITE SUPREMACIST all together. Maybe we need to coin a new term AMERICAN NATIONALIST and tell the Democrats to stick their Race Baiting up their arse.

While I do agree, that the key to resisting the uni-polar globalist technocracy is creating grassroots narratives. . .

This is not a word from the English language, that I believe a lot of energy should be spent on. It is sort of like the black American community trying to reclaim the "N," word. Sure, it decreases the power the word has, but it still has negative connotations when used the wrong way. Why even try to reclaim something, when other words will do just as fine?

I am not sure, you really understand, the magnitude of the battle ahead, for the future of humanity. It will require massive compromises, with many different people of all sorts of POV, to retain civil rights, civil liberties, and basic human dignities. We will all be looking for allies, where you never thought you would be seeking them. Any language that once had been paired in a way, that had loathsome connotations? Will have been just a waste of energy and a road block to future bridges we will need to make, IMO.

Episode 357 - Language is a Weapon​

Corbett • 06/14/2019 • 56 Comments

 

[MarathonMike]

While I do agree, that the key to resisting the uni-polar globalist technocracy is creating grassroots narratives. . .

This is not a word from the English language, that I believe a lot of energy should be spent on. It is sort of like the black American community trying to reclaim the "N," word. Sure, it decreases the power the word has, but it still has negative connotations when used the wrong way. Why even try to reclaim something, when other words will do just as fine?

I am not sure, you really understand, the magnitude of the battle ahead, for the future of humanity. It will require massive compromises, with many different people of all sorts of POV, to retain civil rights, civil liberties, and basic human dignities. We will all be looking for allies, where you never thought you would be seeking them. Any language that once had been paired in a way, that had loathsome connotations? Will have been just a waste of energy and a road block to future bridges we will need to make, IMO.

Episode 357 - Language is a Weapon​

Corbett • 06/14/2019 • 56 Comments

I get what you are saying. My point is, the days of the passive patriot are over. There is nothing passive about the way Democrats weaponize language. Look how they've twisted Make America Great Again into a slur. Ultra-MAGA, MAGATs, etc. as if it is extremism to stand up for your country. But I understand that a term like American Nationalist would be target number one for the Democrats and their Media machine.

 

[Flopper]

The entire point of my thread is TAKING BACK the inherently good term of Nationalism from the already Racially corrupted term the Democrats created. I know very well the history of how Nationalism can go wrong, but the way I see it, passive Patriotism is not working in the good ol USA. We are losing this country so in my opinion an American Nationalist movement that pushes back against the Democratic Party Regime in power makes perfect sense. Otherwise, it's down the tubes we go.

I think the problem lies with people like Sen. Tommy Tupperville who said “My opinion of a white nationalist, if someone wants to call them white nationalist, to me, I call them Americans. He has also referred to white supremist as being White Nationalist several times. In fact the term White Nationalist was commonly used by Klan member. Anti-racist speeches coming from right and left have used the term. Also many racist have hide behind the flag calling them themselves loyal Americans, and white nationalist. So it becomes a very short jump from a racist to Nationalist in peoples mind. Of course it not linguistically correct but that does not change the perception.

 

[Coyote]

I get what you are saying. My point is, the days of the passive patriot are over. There is nothing passive about the way Democrats weaponize language. Look how they've twisted Make America Great Again into a slur. Ultra-MAGA, MAGATs, etc. as if it is extremism to stand up for your country. But I understand that a term like American Nationalist would be target number one for the Democrats and their Media machine.

Oh please. Look at the Newt Gingrich doctrine, which is still playing out. YOU weaponized language.

GOPAC Republican Handout

Look at your own slurs: libtard, Demonrat, etc. Weaponized language much? Lately all the right does is project.

 

[Coyote]

,,,,

One great difference between conservatives and liberals is this Mike:

1. Conservatives become conservative by constantly questioning and reassessing everything they are told and believe, until their views are whittled down to an irreducible remainer which holds up under every test, again changing as soon as they find a new flaw in their beliefs.
2. Liberals become liberals by never questioning, doubting or reassessing anything they are taught to believe. You could sooner chop through a foot thick block of concrete with a bat then ever get them to change their minds on anything. They are simply right about everything all the time and know it all.

Conservatives conserve tradition, the status quo. They seek to exclude what is different. They are resistant to change and regard it with suspicion. Any questioning they do is with the aim of intention of reaffirming the rightness of their beliefs.

Liberals, on the hand are always questioning, open to change, questioning tradition, even trampling it, pushing the envelope in who we include as the “us” that conservatives later conserve. The danger here is the tendancy of liberals to push too far too fast.

 

[MarathonMike]

Liberals, on the hand are always questioning, open to change, questioning tradition, even trampling it, pushing the envelope in who we include as the “us” that conservatives later conserve. The danger here is the tendancy of liberals to push too far too fast.

That's Libspeak for wanting to tear down America and erect the New World Order. Nationalist is and always will be a good thing. It can be hijacked and turned into a bad thing as well.

 

[White 6]

That's Libspeak for wanting to tear down America and erect the New World Order. Nationalist is and always will be a good thing. It can be hijacked and turned into a bad thing as well.

BS. History is replete worldwide with toxic and often deadly consequences of extreme nationalism and the wars that came with them.

 

[MarathonMike]

BS. History is replete worldwide with toxic and often deadly consequences of extreme nationalism and the wars that came with them.

If you had read my very short post, you would see that I said Nationalism can be hijacked. Nationalism is a good thing but it requires that you understand what it IS not what it COULD BECOME.

 

[MarathonMike]

I think the problem lies with people like Sen. Tommy Tupperville who said “My opinion of a white nationalist, if someone wants to call them white nationalist, to me, I call them Americans. He has also referred to white supremist as being White Nationalist several times. In fact the term White Nationalist was commonly used by Klan member. Anti-racist speeches coming from right and left have used the term. Also many racist have hide behind flag calling them themselves loyal Americans, and white nationalist. So it become a very short jump from a racist to Nationalist in peoples mind. Of course it not linguistically correct but that does not change the perception.

In America, the reason it is a "very short jump" from racist to nationalist is the concerted effort of the Democrats to smear everything with their racist paintbrush. They have made Nationalist, White Nationalist, White Supremacist, MAGA, ultra-MAGA all interchangeable slurs.

 

[toobfreak]

Conservatives conserve tradition, the status quo.

Isn't that what tradition is for and how it BECOMES tradition? A nation without tradition is a nation without identity.

They seek to exclude what is different. They are resistant to change

Close but put more accurately, they exclude and resist change and difference that is not better. Men wearing women's clothing, men using women's lockers and men competing in women's sports is a change and a difference we can do without.

and regard it with suspicion.

Every animal in the world survives best by regarding the unknown, the untested and the unproven with suspicion. Fact of life. Far better than leaping into the dark.

Liberals, on the hand are always questioning,

Show me one questioning how Joe Biden got 40 million in bribery payments from foreign countries.

open to change,

Where was that openness to change when Trump came along wanting to restore America's prosperity, integrity and greatness?

questioning tradition, even trampling it,

Why would you want to question, trample and doubt the very traditions which made you the greatest country on the planet and world superpower with the highest standard of living and freedom for all? If some other country has done better, then why does everyone want to move here? You change things to solve a problem; but change just for change's sake is a fool's errand.

pushing the envelope in who we

We were already always pushing the envelop in who we are. We don't need "pushed" into changing the envelop to being immoral and degenerate.

The danger here is the tendancy of liberals to push too far too fast.

There, now you've finally said something that I can understand and agree with. Now go read my other post I wrote mentioning you. I think it was in the We Are Americans thread.

 

[Coyote]

That's Libspeak for wanting to tear down America and erect the New World Order. Nationalist is and always will be a good thing. It can be hijacked and turned into a bad thing as well.

No, it is just how libs and cons are and they balance each other out.

If you are upset at the “redefining” of nationalist, then you need to aim your ire at those who used to call them selves White Supremacists until they shed the skinhead, donned a suit and tie and mainstreamed themselves as “White Nationalists“. This is on you guys…not the left.

 

[Coyote]

Isn't that what tradition is for and how it BECOMES tradition? A nation without tradition is a nation without identity.

Yup.

Close but put more accurately, they exclude and resist change and difference that is not better. Men wearing women's clothing, men using women's lockers and men competing in women's sports is a change and a difference we can do without.

Any change has the potential to upset the status quo and thus is reason for suspicion and fear. It’s the remnant of our ancient survival mechanisms. Where now it is the examples you give, in other times it was women voting, women wearing skirts above the ankles…etc.

Every animal in the world survives best by regarding the unknown, the untested and the unproven with suspicion. Fact of life. Far better than leaping into the dark.

Yup, it’s a remnant of our earlier selves.

Show me one questioning how Joe Biden got 40 million in bribery payments from foreign countries.

Show me that actually happened. (No please don’t or we will derail the thread)…but your asking for something that one side believes and the other doesn’t as opposed to ideological differences.

Where was that openness to change when Trump came along wanting to restore America's prosperity, integrity and greatness?


Why would you want to question, trample and doubt the very traditions which made you the greatest country on the planet and world superpower with the highest standard of living and freedom for all? If some other country has done better, then why does everyone want to move here? You change things to solve a problem; but change just for change's sake is a fool's errand.

Some traditions that were challenges, overturned, and eventually became part of our NEW traditions once conservatives accepted them:

Women voting.
Blacks and Whites going to school together.
Women having a career.
Women holding public office.
Social security.
Social safetynet.
Safe foods, Medicines and equipment.
Child labor laws.
Birth control.
Same sex marriage.

We were already always pushing the envelop in who we are. We don't need "pushed" into changing the envelop to being immoral and degenerate.

The LIBERAL part of us was always pushing tbe envelope. The CONSERVATIVE part of us resisted.

There, now you've finally said something that I can understand and agree with. Now go read my other post I wrote mentioning you. I think it was in the We Are Americans thread.

You agree, but you are unable to recognize the conservative part..