We all know you hate labor unions but do you hate collective bargaining itself?

[jhc1983]

I have to wonder at the entire conversation here.

My father was a welder. He was union his whole life and managed to get an Associates degree in programing in the early 80's while working 60+ hours a week welding the Bradley tank. He worked on Apollo's 11 and 15, and built a number of construction cranes when he was younger.

He worked fucking hard at becoming the very best welder in any shop he worked in. My father could walk out of any job and find another employer within a week. His resume and skills were that good.

Now, we hear about the mighty union worker who can't go out and find a job to save his life?

Maybe we are talking about two different animals.....The unions My father worked in had skilled labor....not pussies.

It is the anti union bullshit that is being spread.
What is worse is that the people that believe the anti union bullshit are the ones who C.B. would help the most

Its just the lies that I hate. Because I see it another way, they have to lie about My hating unions. I don't.

I don't have much use for them, but I don't hate them, and I don't want private unions destroyed. I just think they should survive or die like the rest of us....based upon your skills of survival.

They are not allowing new ones into the marketplace and are attempting to union bust they ones already here.
Worker's rights have came along way since the 30's but some what to take us back

 

[zakdavis]

I had to change professions a number of years ago because I became much too qualified and experienced and frankly too old (in their opinions) when they could get a few underpaid kids to replace me, I'm doing OK now but what I went through in those years when corporate America ditched the deep well of experience represented by middle aged workers for a bunch of debt laden kids who would literally work for chicken feed has soured my faith that any empty management suit knows a damned thing about what is best for their companies.

So what you want then is 100% job security, and fuck those young wipper snappers for wanting a job!

Are you just being dense or what? If you were to get replaced with cheaper labor rather than better labor you would feel a little raw about it too. If you then went to look for other work and get told point blank that you are overqualified for every entry level position back to where you were before then you get a little mad, if you then had to work a shit job through school in middle age you get bitter, if then got out to a new life of less pay and a bunch of student debt then you lose faith in the American dream where hard work and dedication is supposed to mean something.

No, I've never even had the joy to have a job that involves qualifications. Before my current job of sit in the motor pool and look pissed off, I was a rodbuster and box kicker.

 

[Darkwind]

It is the anti union bullshit that is being spread.
What is worse is that the people that believe the anti union bullshit are the ones who C.B. would help the most

Its just the lies that I hate. Because I see it another way, they have to lie about My hating unions. I don't.

I don't have much use for them, but I don't hate them, and I don't want private unions destroyed. I just think they should survive or die like the rest of us....based upon your skills of survival.

They are not allowing new ones into the marketplace and are attempting to union bust they ones already here.
Worker's rights have came along way since the 30's but some what to take us back

No, they don't. They just don't feel like being limited by union bosses who get rich while not providing anything to the rank and file. I've been in unions of the modern age....

Unions do NOT have a right to form...nor do they have a right to impose their will on the rest of us....they just have the right to assemble like minded people.

 

[zakdavis]

So what you want then is 100% job security, and fuck those young wipper snappers for wanting a job!

Are you just being dense or what? If you were to get replaced with cheaper labor rather than better labor you would feel a little raw about it too. If you then went to look for other work and get told point blank that you are overqualified for every entry level position back to where you were before then you get a little mad, if you then had to work a shit job through school in middle age you get bitter, if then got out to a new life of less pay and a bunch of student debt then you lose faith in the American dream where hard work and dedication is supposed to mean something.

No, I've never even had the joy to have a job that involves qualifications. Before my current job of sit in the motor pool and look pissed off, I was a rodbuster and box kicker.

On another note, I apologize for maybe being an ass earlier, but my statement still stands that it seems you want 100% job security.

 

[jhc1983]

Its just the lies that I hate. Because I see it another way, they have to lie about My hating unions. I don't.

I don't have much use for them, but I don't hate them, and I don't want private unions destroyed. I just think they should survive or die like the rest of us....based upon your skills of survival.

They are not allowing new ones into the marketplace and are attempting to union bust they ones already here.
Worker's rights have came along way since the 30's but some what to take us back

No, they don't. They just don't feel like being limited by union bosses who get rich while not providing anything to the rank and file. I've been in unions of the modern age....

Unions do NOT have a right to form...nor do they have a right to impose their will on the rest of us....they just have the right to assemble like minded people.

Unions do not work unless you have 100% of the workers included

This was the reason why the union busters promoted the right to work laws

 

[occupied]

So what you want then is 100% job security, and fuck those young wipper snappers for wanting a job!

Are you just being dense or what? If you were to get replaced with cheaper labor rather than better labor you would feel a little raw about it too. If you then went to look for other work and get told point blank that you are overqualified for every entry level position back to where you were before then you get a little mad, if you then had to work a shit job through school in middle age you get bitter, if then got out to a new life of less pay and a bunch of student debt then you lose faith in the American dream where hard work and dedication is supposed to mean something.

No, I've never even had the joy to have a job that involves qualifications. Before running over explosives in the desert, I was a rodbuster and box kicker.

The professional world is not all it's cracked up to be but my working poor parents were insistent that I "be somebody" so I became somebody who was all too easily discarded. As a younger person I did a lot of highly physical labor and that along with my somewhat impoverished upbringing has always put me on the side of the working man and contemptuous of the greedy sociopathic boss man that seems to be the new normal.

 

[Darkwind]

They are not allowing new ones into the marketplace and are attempting to union bust they ones already here.
Worker's rights have came along way since the 30's but some what to take us back

No, they don't. They just don't feel like being limited by union bosses who get rich while not providing anything to the rank and file. I've been in unions of the modern age....

Unions do NOT have a right to form...nor do they have a right to impose their will on the rest of us....they just have the right to assemble like minded people.

Unions do not work unless you have 100% of the workers included

This was the reason why the union busters promoted the right to work laws

I won't be shedding a tear.

 

[zakdavis]

Are you just being dense or what? If you were to get replaced with cheaper labor rather than better labor you would feel a little raw about it too. If you then went to look for other work and get told point blank that you are overqualified for every entry level position back to where you were before then you get a little mad, if you then had to work a shit job through school in middle age you get bitter, if then got out to a new life of less pay and a bunch of student debt then you lose faith in the American dream where hard work and dedication is supposed to mean something.

No, I've never even had the joy to have a job that involves qualifications. Before running over explosives in the desert, I was a rodbuster and box kicker.

The professional world is not all it's cracked up to be but my working poor parents were insistent that I "be somebody" so I became somebody who was all too easily discarded. As a younger person I did a lot of highly physical labor and that along with my somewhat impoverished upbringing has always put me on the side of the working man and contemptuous of the greedy sociopathic boss man that seems to be the new normal.[/QUOTE]

And that is where our paths diverge, and I don't do anger for very long. C'est la vie.

 

[jhc1983]

Are you just being dense or what? If you were to get replaced with cheaper labor rather than better labor you would feel a little raw about it too. If you then went to look for other work and get told point blank that you are overqualified for every entry level position back to where you were before then you get a little mad, if you then had to work a shit job through school in middle age you get bitter, if then got out to a new life of less pay and a bunch of student debt then you lose faith in the American dream where hard work and dedication is supposed to mean something.

No, I've never even had the joy to have a job that involves qualifications. Before running over explosives in the desert, I was a rodbuster and box kicker.

The professional world is not all it's cracked up to be but my working poor parents were insistent that I "be somebody" so I became somebody who was all too easily discarded. As a younger person I did a lot of highly physical labor and that along with my somewhat impoverished upbringing has always put me on the side of the working man and contemptuous of the greedy sociopathic boss man that seems to be the new normal.

It is the fake idea of the American Dream that makes people think they can be that greedy boss man who hires people at 50% of the going wage and fires them when he wants

 

[occupied]

Are you just being dense or what? If you were to get replaced with cheaper labor rather than better labor you would feel a little raw about it too. If you then went to look for other work and get told point blank that you are overqualified for every entry level position back to where you were before then you get a little mad, if you then had to work a shit job through school in middle age you get bitter, if then got out to a new life of less pay and a bunch of student debt then you lose faith in the American dream where hard work and dedication is supposed to mean something.

No, I've never even had the joy to have a job that involves qualifications. Before my current job of sit in the motor pool and look pissed off, I was a rodbuster and box kicker.

On another note, I apologize for maybe being an ass earlier, but my statement still stands that it seems you want 100% job security.

It's getting late and I am kind of depressed now so I will just say that I had some expectation of having a certain amount of value to the marketplace after the years of continuing education, excellent job performance and just plain ass-kissing people who deserved ass-kicking instead. No one ever expects 100% job security but to suddenly find you have zero value in your chosen field is no way to go through a mid life crisis. All that effort was a hefty investment in myself and it was like a terrible stock market crash. I am terribly bitter about it and it has colored my view of corporate America ever since.

 

[The Rabbi]

If someone walks off of their job... they left of their own free will. Bah bye.... dont let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. They forfeit their "right to due process"... since walking off the job is the same as quitting.

Yes but its not the same as striking.

What's the difference?

 

[Two Thumbs]

Just curious about this, not looking for the same old rant about unions being selfish or corrupt but an exploration of a right (collective bargaining) that did not always exist and seems to be in greater peril than ever. To be specific: Do American workers have the right to collectively bargain, to strike if unsuccessful, and to be protected from undue retaliation under the law?

Do American workers have the right to collectively bargain, no to strike if unsuccessful, yes and to be protected from undue retaliation under the law? yes

Unions are outdated and public sector unions are killing many state economies.


Either fix the problem now or else.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Just curious about this, not looking for the same old rant about unions being selfish or corrupt but an exploration of a right (collective bargaining) that did not always exist and seems to be in greater peril than ever. To be specific: Do American workers have the right to collectively bargain, to strike if unsuccessful, and to be protected from undue retaliation under the law?

You act like employees have a right to declare themselves partners in a business with no investment in that business other than their time for which they are compensated. Compensation I might add that they agreed to. There are laws in place that are available to them if the employer doesn't do as required. They have every right to make suggestions to the employer to improve the work place, but the guy that has his life and money in the company that has the final say. If they think that's not good enough there is no one holding a gun to their head to stay there. That gives both parties the FREEDOM to continue the relationship or not.

Once the business owner accepts the benefits of incorporation (limited liability) , he/she has accepted social responsibilities that incorporation demands. It means that there are rules to follow...and that the owner doesn't always have the final say.

 

[syrenn]

they have very right to get together and try and bargain all they want. The also have every right to strike and walk off the job to try an force their employer to meet their terms and do as they want...


however.... the employer should ALSO have the right to fire anyone who walks off the job, obstructs others from doing their jobs or preventing anyone from patronizing the employer....and replacing them.

That would kind of negate the sole leverage workers have in a strike would it not? So the your answer is no?

I’m sure many will and have pointed out but the answer is no, it does not negate the leverage the workers have. All you’re doing by saying a employer can’t fire people that don’t show up for work is give the workers a freakishly overpowered monopoly.

I can't understand why so many liberals hate evolution. A business MUST follow the same rules or you get cows walking in their own shit spreading disease.

I have to take a moment and point out just how stunningly little you understand about business. You truly seem to hate success, you value employees as if they created the business, as if they took the risks, that if the business fails they will enjoy bankruptcy and liquidation of assets.

It’s awkward seeing people “debate” these issues when it seems like Disney raised them on what a business owner is, an evil fat dog person in a pin stripe suit that smokes cigars and fires people by the masses and laughs when confronted with how children will be starving.

Some employees steal, are horrible at their job and make the work place a nightmare for others, just like some business owners can have much the same effect.

and... if its a "union job" .... it makes no difference. You can fire them... just write them up for eternity.

 

[syrenn]

That would kind of negate the sole leverage workers have in a strike would it not? So the your answer is no?

I’m sure many will and have pointed out but the answer is no, it does not negate the leverage the workers have. All you’re doing by saying a employer can’t fire people that don’t show up for work is give the workers a freakishly overpowered monopoly.

I can't understand why so many liberals hate evolution. A business MUST follow the same rules or you get cows walking in their own shit spreading disease.

I have to take a moment and point out just how stunningly little you understand about business. You truly seem to hate success, you value employees as if they created the business, as if they took the risks, that if the business fails they will enjoy bankruptcy and liquidation of assets.

It’s awkward seeing people “debate” these issues when it seems like Disney raised them on what a business owner is, an evil fat dog person in a pin stripe suit that smokes cigars and fires people by the masses and laughs when confronted with how children will be starving.

Some employees steal, are horrible at their job and make the work place a nightmare for others, just like some business owners can have much the same effect.

Another one who thinks people today can just quit a sucky job that demands wage and benefit concessions from workers and go right out and get a better one. Jobs are scarce and no one knows this better than the dickhead looking for a way to squeeze some more production or profit out of a workforce. Half of America would kick their boss in the 'nads and walk out tomorrow morning if they didn't have loss of health insurance hanging over their heads.

LOL... what does finding another job... or the scarcity of jobs have anything to do with it?

if they are unhappy with their job or employer.....they are free to leave.

 

[The Rabbi]

Just curious about this, not looking for the same old rant about unions being selfish or corrupt but an exploration of a right (collective bargaining) that did not always exist and seems to be in greater peril than ever. To be specific: Do American workers have the right to collectively bargain, to strike if unsuccessful, and to be protected from undue retaliation under the law?

You act like employees have a right to declare themselves partners in a business with no investment in that business other than their time for which they are compensated. Compensation I might add that they agreed to. There are laws in place that are available to them if the employer doesn't do as required. They have every right to make suggestions to the employer to improve the work place, but the guy that has his life and money in the company that has the final say. If they think that's not good enough there is no one holding a gun to their head to stay there. That gives both parties the FREEDOM to continue the relationship or not.

Once the business owner accepts the benefits of incorporation (limited liability) , he/she has accepted social responsibilities that incorporation demands. It means that there are rules to follow...and that the owner doesn't always have the final say.

I incorporated my business. Please show me which document I signed accepting "social responsibilities" and where those might be spelled out.

The Left is fuzzy on detail.

 

[syrenn]

I’m sure many will and have pointed out but the answer is no, it does not negate the leverage the workers have. All you’re doing by saying a employer can’t fire people that don’t show up for work is give the workers a freakishly overpowered monopoly.

I can't understand why so many liberals hate evolution. A business MUST follow the same rules or you get cows walking in their own shit spreading disease.

I have to take a moment and point out just how stunningly little you understand about business. You truly seem to hate success, you value employees as if they created the business, as if they took the risks, that if the business fails they will enjoy bankruptcy and liquidation of assets.

It’s awkward seeing people “debate” these issues when it seems like Disney raised them on what a business owner is, an evil fat dog person in a pin stripe suit that smokes cigars and fires people by the masses and laughs when confronted with how children will be starving.

Some employees steal, are horrible at their job and make the work place a nightmare for others, just like some business owners can have much the same effect.

Another one who thinks people today can just quit a sucky job that demands wage and benefit concessions from workers and go right out and get a better one. Jobs are scarce and no one knows this better than the dickhead looking for a way to squeeze some more production or profit out of a workforce. Half of America would kick their boss in the 'nads and walk out tomorrow morning if they didn't have loss of health insurance hanging over their heads.

You're a fucking moron. There really is no point. I honestly can't believe you have the nut sack to talk to people like you do on these boards. I'd bet money if you sat in a room full of business owners they would just stare right into your face then start laughing.

What you want is 100% job security, do you hear me? 100% job security. You want an employee to not ever in their life be allowed to be fired, how the fuck can they be? You also don't understand that life is hard on the bottom, that's why you try so hard to move up, if you have HC, education, housing, food paid for by the Government and any job you have you have absolute security in, ask yourself, why would you EVER need to try and move up? Why would you EVER work hard? I mean really, you just took the entire book on evolution and tossed it out the window. You have nothing to fear for doing as little as possible, you literally penalize success. Where do you think the majority of people will find themselves on that scale?

This is of course the problem with welfare, it makes people dependent and poor. Not everyone, just most people. Don't believe me? Tell me again how hard it is to get a job, tell me again how shitty America is doing... Then try and tell me we have less welfare than we did 2 years ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 20, 30, 50, 100 years ago... Notice a trend much? More welfare, more poor people. 100% job security is welfare.

It is scary people like you talk out loud because you have no interst in learning, juat repeating yourself and making noise.

its not just about firing....

its about telling them to ..... omg....WORK. Ever gotten the line... "its not in my job description"?

 

[syrenn]

I have to wonder at the entire conversation here.

My father was a welder. He was union his whole life and managed to get an Associates degree in programing in the early 80's while working 60+ hours a week welding the Bradley tank. He worked on Apollo's 11 and 15, and built a number of construction cranes when he was younger.

He worked fucking hard at becoming the very best welder in any shop he worked in. My father could walk out of any job and find another employer within a week. His resume and skills were that good.

Now, we hear about the mighty union worker who can't go out and find a job to save his life?

Maybe we are talking about two different animals.....The unions My father worked in had skilled labor....not pussies.

I had to change professions a number of years ago because I became much too qualified and experienced and frankly too old (in their opinions) when they could get a few underpaid kids to replace me, I'm doing OK now but what I went through in those years when corporate America ditched the deep well of experience represented by middle aged workers for a bunch of debt laden kids who would literally work for chicken feed has soured my faith that any empty management suit knows a damned thing about what is best for their companies.

and??

i get it now... you are just pissed. Corporate America didn't ditch you.... the unions priced you out of your jobs.

 

[syrenn]

that would defeat the point.

actions have consequences.....

while true, said boss most likely signed a prior agreement saying he/she wouldnt fire people if they striked.

so you have to factor that in

contracts expire..... so said signed agreement goes out the door.

 

[syrenn]

They are not allowing new ones into the marketplace and are attempting to union bust they ones already here.
Worker's rights have came along way since the 30's but some what to take us back

No, they don't. They just don't feel like being limited by union bosses who get rich while not providing anything to the rank and file. I've been in unions of the modern age....

Unions do NOT have a right to form...nor do they have a right to impose their will on the rest of us....they just have the right to assemble like minded people.

Unions do not work unless you have 100% of the workers included

This was the reason why the union busters promoted the right to work laws

BINGO....

and what if you want to work... but are not ALLOWED to, unless you join the union??

what if you have no issue with there being a union... but do not want to pay...dues?

what if you have no problem with unions.... but will ALSO no allow them to tell you when you can or cant work.... ie cant cross a strike line or must strike?