Waco 1993 - When the US govt used chemical weapons on US civilians!!!

[candycorn]

Waco - The Inside Story | FRONTLINE | PBS

It seems your responses are limited to juvenile nonsense. So away you go to my Ignore list with the rest of the belligerent adolescents and low-IQ time and space wasters.

ahh the classic lazyboy patriot ploy....

Somehow killing federal agents had become a positive in the warped minds of these nitwits

 

[whitehall]

What would you do if an SUV came rolling up your driveway and a bunch of camo clad rough looking guys brandishing weapons jumped out? If you were so inclined you would defend yourself. Who fired the first shot is still in question. Don't lose sight of the fact that the original intent was to serve a search warrant regarding allegations that the Branch Dividians were converting old rusty junker WW2 scrap into fully automatic weapons. The allegations were never proved and in fact the warrant was so faulty that nobody ever brought it up. Koresch was denied legal council and medical help and eventually about 80 men, women and children were incinerated. The left would be outraged if it happened in Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan but it happened in Texas under a democrat administration so the media supported it.

 

[FA_Q2]

It is not the same as serein gas, period.

Correct. And mustard gas is not the same as Sarin gas, and chlorine gas is not the same as mustard gas, and on and on. All do not have the same lethal potential, nor do they all function in the same way. But people have died from exposure (especially indoors) to tear gas. And if you ever have the opportunity to read the cautions on a tear gas projectile it clearly states its life-threatening potential and precautions.

So it is not a weapon in the same category as sarin, but it is a weapon nonetheless. Its common use outdoors in controlling mobs should not convey the impression that it's harmless. Its use indoors can kill!

Over exposure to water can kill as well. So can CO2, nitrogen and almost anything out there. That is utterly beside the point that you seem to have completely missed. The point was scale and purpose – 2 things that are simply not comparable between sarin gas that IS lethal and CS that is NOT lethal but can still kill.

I can’t fathom why you are trying to connect sarin use and CS use. You do realize that it makes your arguments into useless rantings. The comparison is CLEARLY insane. They are not the same category. As I said earlier – it is akin to comparing a Taser and a cruise missile. A comparison that is insane.

As wrong as Waco was, it was NOT wrong because they used tear gas. It was wrong because of the way that it was executed as well as the level they elevated the event to. Where a simple arrest would have sufficed, they stormed the compound and endangered innocent people.

The use of tear gas was not the problem and it CANNOT be compared to using nerve gas. That would be akin to comparing a Taser (also deadly in the right circumstances) to a cruise missile. They are in completely different fields.

Everything about the Waco raid was wrong, from beginning to end. And while there is no evidence to ascertain that the tear gas used started the fire, there is an equal lack of evidence it didn't.

Those who wish to draw an intelligent conclusion about that are urged to read, The Ashes of Waco, by Dick Reavis.

Whether or not it caused the fire is rather irrelevant and has nothing to do with my point. Stating that ‘everything’ was wrong with WACO is a complete cop out and only serves to defeat rational discourse. ‘Everything’ was not the problem. There were specific things that can be pointed at that were the problems.

 

[FA_Q2]

It is not the same as serein gas, period.

Correct. And mustard gas is not the same as Sarin gas, and chlorine gas is not the same as mustard gas, and on and on. All do not have the same lethal potential, nor do they all function in the same way. But people have died from exposure, (especially indoors) to tear gas. And if you ever have the opportunity to read the cautions on a tear gas projectile it clearly states its life-threatening potential and precautions.

So it is not a weapon in the same category as sarin, but it is a weapon nonetheless. Its common use outdoors in controlling mobs should not convey the impression that it's harmless. Its use indoors can kill!

As wrong as Waco was, it was NOT wrong because they used tear gas. It was wrong because of the way that it was executed as well as the level they elevated the event to. Where a simple arrest would have sufficed, they stormed the compound and endangered innocent people.

The use of tear gas was not the problem and it CANNOT be compared to using nerve gas. That would be akin to comparing a Taser (also deadly in the right circumstances) to a cruise missile. They are in completely different fields.

Everything about the Waco raid was wrong, from beginning to end. And while there is no evidence to ascertain that the tear gas used started the fire, there is an equal lack of evidence it didn't.

Those who wish to draw an intelligent conclusion about that are urged to read, The Ashes of Waco, by Dick Reavis.

really the most logical conclusion that can be made is if "they" had turned over their illegal weapons and gagged koresh then no one would have died.
instead they chose to martyr themselves and their kids.

The actions of the individuals at WACO is completely irrelevant to the incorrect decisions that the police made. Simple fact is that the poor decisions of others DOES NOT negate the poor decisions that you make. Should those people have acted differently? Of course, likely starting with the fact that they should never have joined the insane cult to begin with but, as I said, that is irrelevant.

Just because they acted insane (something that the police should have expected considering they were a CULT) does not negate the fact that the police failed in the way they established the raid, the use of the gas, passing up the chance to arrest Koresh outside of the complex and a hundred other glaring errors of judgment that they made. You CANNOT control the actions of insane cultists – that is a fact. You can, however, control the actions of the police as an organization and what happened there should never have been allowed to happen or even get close to occurring.

 

[whitehall]

The feds acknowledge that the gas they pumped into the structures for hours was C.S. How do they rationalize the fact that C.S. gas is forbidden to be used by the Military or prisons or the Police? Innocent children, babies (pregnant mothers?) probably died of asphyxiation long before the carrier for the deadly gas ignited and killed everyone else.

 

[MikeK]

It is not the same as serein gas, period.

Correct. And mustard gas is not the same as Sarin gas, and chlorine gas is not the same as mustard gas, and on and on. All do not have the same lethal potential, nor do they all function in the same way. But people have died from exposure (especially indoors) to tear gas. And if you ever have the opportunity to read the cautions on a tear gas projectile it clearly states its life-threatening potential and precautions.

So it is not a weapon in the same category as sarin, but it is a weapon nonetheless. Its common use outdoors in controlling mobs should not convey the impression that it's harmless. Its use indoors can kill!

Over exposure to water can kill as well. So can CO2, nitrogen and almost anything out there. That is utterly beside the point that you seem to have completely missed. The point was scale and purpose – 2 things that are simply not comparable between sarin gas that IS lethal and CS that is NOT lethal but can still kill.

I can’t fathom why you are trying to connect sarin use and CS use. You do realize that it makes your arguments into useless rantings. The comparison is CLEARLY insane. They are not the same category. As I said earlier – it is akin to comparing a Taser and a cruise missile. A comparison that is insane.

As wrong as Waco was, it was NOT wrong because they used tear gas. It was wrong because of the way that it was executed as well as the level they elevated the event to. Where a simple arrest would have sufficed, they stormed the compound and endangered innocent people.

The use of tear gas was not the problem and it CANNOT be compared to using nerve gas. That would be akin to comparing a Taser (also deadly in the right circumstances) to a cruise missile. They are in completely different fields.

Everything about the Waco raid was wrong, from beginning to end. And while there is no evidence to ascertain that the tear gas used started the fire, there is an equal lack of evidence it didn't.

Those who wish to draw an intelligent conclusion about that are urged to read, The Ashes of Waco, by Dick Reavis.

Whether or not it caused the fire is rather irrelevant and has nothing to do with my point. Stating that ‘everything’ was wrong with WACO is a complete cop out and only serves to defeat rational discourse. ‘Everything’ was not the problem. There were specific things that can be pointed at that were the problems.

I didn't say "everything was wrong with Waco." Please don't misquote me. I said everything about the raid was wrong, from beginning to end.

If you disagree, please be specific.

 

[MikeK]

Over exposure to water can kill as well. So can CO2, nitrogen and almost anything out there. That is utterly beside the point that you seem to have completely missed. The point was scale and purpose – 2 things that are simply not comparable between sarin gas that IS lethal and CS that is NOT lethal but can still kill.

I can’t fathom why you are trying to connect sarin use and CS use. You do realize that it makes your arguments into useless rantings. The comparison is CLEARLY insane. They are not the same category. As I said earlier – it is akin to comparing a Taser and a cruise missile. A comparison that is insane.

Where did I compare tear gas to sarin gas?

The following is for your information:

(Excerpts)

Invented in 1928, CS is called a "super tear gas" because it works instantaneously, causing burning eyes, coughing, breathing difficulty, stinging skin, and vomiting. CS -- the common name for orthochlorbenzalmalononitrile -- is a fine white powder, about the consistency of talcum powder, and it must be spread with some type of dispersing agent. But it has several nasty qualities, including its flammability. When burned, CS releases a deadly gas, hydrogen cyanide. And when methylene chloride -- the dispersing agent of choice -- is burned, it releases deadly hydrogen chloride and chlorine. Both chemicals, in turn, release large amounts of carbon monoxide. According to the Failure Analysis report, 44 of the 76 bodies recovered from Mount Carmel tested positive for cyanide. And according to the coroner's report, a quarter of the deaths at Mount Carmel were caused by carbon monoxide asphyxiation, while another 27% died of smoke inhalation.

On Jan. 13, 1993, the United States and dozens of other countries signed the Chemical Weapons Convention, the most far-reaching treaty regarding prohibitions on the use of chemical weapons. The treaty bans the use of nerve agents, mustard gas, and other compounds, including tear gas, during wartime.

Three months and six days after the U.S. signed the convention, the FBI used CS on the Branch Davidians.

Lethal Weapon: FBI's Use of Tear Gas Questioned at Davidian Trial - News - The Austin Chronicle

(Close)

 

[MikeK]

It seems your responses are limited to juvenile nonsense. So away you go to my Ignore list with the rest of the belligerent adolescents and low-IQ time and space wasters.

ahh the classic lazyboy patriot ploy....

Somehow killing federal agents had become a positive in the warped minds of these nitwits

I find nothing wrong with using equal force to defend against armed raiders who are behaving like Nazi Gestapo. Neither does the Texas Penal Law, which acquitted the Davidians of criminal charges in relation to their use of defensive force against the ATF raiders.

(I've posted the specifics of that law in an earlier message)

 

[MikeK]

Somehow killing federal agents had become a positive in the warped minds of these nitwits

Your obvious bias in condemning the Davidians as "nitwits" and your apparent unquestioning reverence for any and all who bear the title federal agent suggests one of two possibilities; those being (a) you are relatively ignorant of the circumstances involved in the Waco massacre or (b) your thinking is affected by what behaviorists refer to as the authoritarian/submissive orientation.

Which do you suppose it is?

 

[MikeK]

Just because they acted insane[...]

What, specifically, was it about the Davidians' actions that you think of as "insane?"

Maybe that question could best be answered by presenting your definition of sanity.

 

[MikeK]

The actions of the individuals at WACO is completely irrelevant to the incorrect decisions that the police made. Simple fact is that the poor decisions of others DOES NOT negate the poor decisions that you make. Should those people have acted differently? Of course, likely starting with the fact that they should never have joined the insane cult to begin with but, as I said, that is irrelevant.

If it's irrelevant, why do you mention it? Actually it is in fact your entirely subjective personal opinion, which could be applied to any religion -- and has been, with more substantive cause.

What is relevant is the fact that the Branch Davidians harmed no one! Everything they were accused of, with the exception of violating a few minor ATF regulations, was proven to be entirely false. The most substantive criticisms made by anyone against the Davidians is they were different and unusual. But the fact remains they harmed no one. They behaved respectfully and they paid their way via honest endeavor -- which includes paying their local, state, and federal taxes.

But because of nothing other than false accusations and a complex interpretation of authoritarian legal dogma, they were attacked by a paramilitary raiding party and, after a long siege, almost all of them, including their babies, were gassed and incinerated by federal agents.

That is what happened.

 

[candycorn]

ahh the classic lazyboy patriot ploy....

Somehow killing federal agents had become a positive in the warped minds of these nitwits

I find nothing wrong with using equal force to defend against armed raiders who are behaving like Nazi Gestapo. Neither does the Texas Penal Law, which acquitted the Davidians of criminal charges in relation to their use of defensive force against the ATF raiders.

(I've posted the specifics of that law in an earlier message)

You should inform yourself on the Gestapo.

You should also re-examine your entire life but we all know you're a lost cause.

 

[candycorn]

Somehow killing federal agents had become a positive in the warped minds of these nitwits

Your obvious bias in condemning the Davidians as "nitwits" and your apparent unquestioning reverence for any and all who bear the title federal agent suggests one of two possibilities; those being (a) you are relatively ignorant of the circumstances involved in the Waco massacre or (b) your thinking is affected by what behaviorists refer to as the authoritarian/submissive orientation.

Which do you suppose it is?

I wasn't talking about the Davidians.

 

[MikeK]

You should inform yourself on the Gestapo.

I know this about the Gestapo; the choice was to submit to them or die. And the Waco massacre is not the only example of ATF's assertion of that ruthless authoritarian axiom.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

fun fact: if the wackos at waco had not douched the compound with gas there would have been no fires..

That is not an established fact.

While some discussion of pouring gasoline was picked up by a bugging device, the survivors' account for that refers to a "Warsaw tank trap" dug in the back of the building. A Warsaw tank trap is simply a narrow ditch filled with wood scraps which are soaked with gasoline. If a tank or armored vehicle falls forward into the ditch the trap is ignited.

Anyone who is interested in more detailed coverage of what really happened at Waco is encouraged to read, The Ashes of Waco, by Dick Reavis. (Available in inexpensive paperback from Amazon.)

why do you bother with agent troll dawgshit? He is just here to troll the boards.He wont read that book you recommeded. any thread made about government corruption,he defends their version of events no mnatter how absurd it is.

everytime you reply to him,your giving him the attention he seeks.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

What they chose to do is resist the kind of oppression that you should be equally opposed to but evidently are not. What happened at Waco is shameful testimony that the majority of Americans are willing to accept such oppressive conduct on the part of their government.

Waco - The Inside Story | FRONTLINE | PBS

It seems your responses are limited to juvenile nonsense. So away you go to my Ignore list with the rest of the belligerent adolescents and low-IQ time and space wasters.

thats what I learned ages ago.His posts consist of a juvenile childs.Thats all he ever does when he is cornered with facts he cant refute is he makes that juvenile post.

 

[daws101]

Waco - The Inside Story | FRONTLINE | PBS

It seems your responses are limited to juvenile nonsense. So away you go to my Ignore list with the rest of the belligerent adolescents and low-IQ time and space wasters.

thats what I learned ages ago.His posts consist of a juvenile childs.Thats all he ever does when he is cornered with facts he cant refute is he makes that juvenile post.

juvenile childs. I take it you mean more than one?

 

[LA RAM FAN]

someone farted in here.