VOX: "Obamacare’s individual mandate is unpopular. But it’s crucial to making Obamacare work"

[JoeB131]

The facts are, usually, irrelevant in an ideological debate.To wit, I oppose government controlling health care for the same reasons I oppose government controlling religions.

Okay, that's kind of retarded.

Just as telling me about the awesome benefits of state mandated religion wouldn't matter - even if you had rock solid proof. I'd still oppose it.

Okay, so if the State Religion could prove to you that their version of God would get you into heaven and the religion you want to practice would send you straight to Heck, you'd be against the government religion because "eek, government".

I work on actual evidence. When I was in a government system - the military - I got whatever care I needed when I needed it. It cost me nothing out of pocket. Good system.

When I was in a private insurance plan, those guys pretty much screwed me at every opportunity.

However, I don't get the claim that government is good and insurance is bad. Government and insurance are so intertwined you can't tell where one starts and the other ends.

Only because insurance has managed to manipulate the system. The reason why insurance is bad because their first duty is to make money. That means collecting as much as they can in premiums and paying out as little as possible in benefits.

In fact, an employer provided insurance plan priorities are 1) Pleasing their stockholders by making a profit 2) Pleasing their execs by paying out those juicy big salaries, 3) pleasing the employers by keeping rates low and then, maybe, maybe 4) Pleasing the poor schlubs who use the insurance by getting them the care they thought they were buying into.

 

[JoeB131]

Likewise, folks like Joe won't be convinced by charts and figures showing that a free market in health care would be more cost efficient. They don't think health care should be a "commodity" for sale, and they'll oppose any policy that treats it as such.

You are right, I won't. Because once you've made it a commodity, you've said that some people should just fucking die because they don't make enough money.

 

[debbiedowner]

It's sad to see a supposed adult equate communistic RINOs with Republicans.

Ronald Reagan would be a :"RINO" by the crazy standards of today's GOP.

Hell, almost all of them are RINO's according to todays rw screwballs. The real Republican party has been hijacked by these idiots.

 

[debbiedowner]

A cute artifact of Obamacare is the 3% Health Insurance Tax (appropriately called "HIT") that will clobber insured Americans in January. A built-in feature that was deferred to get past the election but you can be sure won't be deferred again. But you liberals will love paying more for insurance, won't you?

Keep in mind the republican congress had all year to repeal this tax.

Health Insurer Tax (HIT) Will be Back in Effect in 2018 - Leavitt Group News & Publications

I haven't seen anything to convince me Republicans want to do anything but adjust ACA to suit their sponsors instead of the Democrat's. And the insurance industry plays both ends against the middle, goading Democrats into regulating customers (not only telling them what kind of insurance they're allowed to buy, but forcing them to buy it!), and the getting the Republicans to remove the provisions they don't like.

And the individual mandate isn't one of those provisions.

Trump is the wildcard in all of this. Republicans in Congress will never get rid of the mandate on their own. And if Trump does it by executive order or something, they will immediately replace it with a tax incentive - ie the exact same fucking thing. I'd like to think Trump would veto that kind of attempt, but I'm not sure he gets it.

The mandate can only be changed by congress it was written into law.

I have no idea whether Trump can, or will, do anything about the mandate. I'm just saying that if he does, Congress will quickly replace it. They have their lobbyists to think of.

Hell, he signed an EO on his first day stating the agencies didn't have to enforce the mandate, guess what they are still enforcing and will not process tax returns in 2018 without you checking the box "you had health insurance" They are also enforcing employers with over 50 to finally report who has group insurance or not and the employees that did not take the group insurance offered by employer (if deemed affordable) but lied to receive a subsidy are screwed big time.

 

[MadChemist]

Likewise, folks like Joe won't be convinced by charts and figures showing that a free market in health care would be more cost efficient. They don't think health care should be a "commodity" for sale, and they'll oppose any policy that treats it as such.

You are right, I won't. Because once you've made it a commodity, you've said that some people should just fucking die because they don't make enough money.

Which is the argument in the extreme. And your response is not true.

We can choose to provide health care to those who are poor much better than they get it now.

 

[dblack]

A cute artifact of Obamacare is the 3% Health Insurance Tax (appropriately called "HIT") that will clobber insured Americans in January. A built-in feature that was deferred to get past the election but you can be sure won't be deferred again. But you liberals will love paying more for insurance, won't you?

Keep in mind the republican congress had all year to repeal this tax.

Health Insurer Tax (HIT) Will be Back in Effect in 2018 - Leavitt Group News & Publications

I haven't seen anything to convince me Republicans want to do anything but adjust ACA to suit their sponsors instead of the Democrat's. And the insurance industry plays both ends against the middle, goading Democrats into regulating customers (not only telling them what kind of insurance they're allowed to buy, but forcing them to buy it!), and the getting the Republicans to remove the provisions they don't like.

And the individual mandate isn't one of those provisions.

Trump is the wildcard in all of this. Republicans in Congress will never get rid of the mandate on their own. And if Trump does it by executive order or something, they will immediately replace it with a tax incentive - ie the exact same fucking thing. I'd like to think Trump would veto that kind of attempt, but I'm not sure he gets it.

The mandate can only be changed by congress it was written into law.

I have no idea whether Trump can, or will, do anything about the mandate. I'm just saying that if he does, Congress will quickly replace it. They have their lobbyists to think of.

Hell, he signed an EO on his first day stating the agencies didn't have to enforce the mandate, guess what they are still enforcing and will not process tax returns in 2018 without you checking the box "you had health insurance" They are also enforcing employers with over 50 to finally report who has group insurance or not and the employees that did not take the group insurance offered by employer (if deemed affordable) but lied to receive a subsidy are screwed big time.

RIght. That's my point. Even if Trump does manage to undo some aspects of ACA (like the mandate), Congress will patch it up and make sure the people keep getting screwed big time.

 

[JoeB131]

Which is the argument in the extreme. And your response is not true.

It's not the argument in the extreme. It's the reality of a lot of poor families today, even with the ACA.

We can choose to provide health care to those who are poor much better than they get it now.

Too bad we've chosen not to.

RIght. That's my point. Even if Trump does manage to undo some aspects of ACA (like the mandate), Congress will patch it up and make sure the people keep getting screwed big time.

i'm just curious how the people are getting "screwed" by the mandate. I mean other than Libertarian Tards who don't want no gummit doing nothin' for them.

 

[MadChemist]

Do the red grape juice test and see how badly you are infected. Do this test...I dare you.......

Wow, so I just did this test, and it spelled out the words, "Dale is Crazy as Batshit!"

But I'm sure that's a plot by the Lizard People.

If you did as good a job making your points as you do making a fool of yourself, you'd probably be testifying before congress.

 

[emilynghiem]

So.....the product doesn't work unless people are forced to buy the product?

The OBAMACARE mandate is a tax on Americans who can’t afford insurance. “This is a moral outrage, and the public agrees: 66% of Americans oppose the mandate, according to a 2017 YouGov poll.”

so what's the alternative?

Allow insurance companies to call everything a "pre-existing" condition?

Or don't allow them, but then allow people to buy insurance when they get sick?

That would bankrupt the Insurance Industry pretty quickly.

Dear JoeB131
Allow taxpayers equal choice of funding their own plans, such as through their own PARTIES as a national collective source of discount membership rates!
1. Let Democrats enroll in and manage their own terms and plans
based on cutting and defunding the Death Penalty and prison contracts
and run those programs as Medical schools, training and service programs
to serve the greater public demand instead of blowing billions on prison care alone.
All of Obama's "exchanges and enrollment" system can be applied to just
inmate, immigrant, workers and members who CHOOSE to be under
the Democratic Party plan for sustainable universal care for all enrollees.

2. Let Republicans pay for Veteran care first, then reform and expand the VA to
cover elderly and disabled care for more people, including taxpayers who want
to pay for free market services where the profits cover Vets and others in need
that the party members AGREE to pay for under THEIR terms (including banning
drugs or abortion or sex outside of marriage or whatever else they refuse to fund)

3. Let everyone else choose which plan to participate, fund and be under.
Either collective party plans separated by BELIEFS
or state or federal plans, or some other free market choice through
nonprofit charity, religious or business, or medical schools. As long as
members agree to the rules and terms for receiving care under that program.

Give taxpayers a choice, and the most effective plans will get the funding
while the others would have to correct their flaws in order to get people
to donate, invest, or lend them money to develop their programs until they are proven to work!

Just like charities or business, let people CHOOSE where to invest that works the BEST!

 

[JoeB131]

Allow taxpayers equal choice of funding their own plans, such as through their own PARTIES as a national collective source of discount membership rates!

Actually, that sounds way too complicated and someone will try to game the system.

 

[emilynghiem]

Allow taxpayers equal choice of funding their own plans, such as through their own PARTIES as a national collective source of discount membership rates!

Actually, that sounds way too complicated and someone will try to game the system.

Sure JoeB131 that's what we already have now.
People are already trying to game it, and there is fraud everywhere.

That's why people need to choose their OWN groups and reps
they trust to handle that as well!

If you go with the Veteran group, we can BUILD INTO the system
"how do we handle Veteran FRAUD" and collect restitution from Vet fraud
and use THAT to fund services for real vets with real needs; plus, if the fraudsters
are criminally ill, how can they be worked with to TREAT their criminal illness
so they can pay back damages and invest in a constructive system?

If there is insurance fraud, how do we set up legal teams to asses
the damages, collect reimbursements or CREDITS then apply THAT
to cover costs of REAL needs and cases that qualify for assistance?
With FEMA this is a huge issue, where people got benefits who
didn't qualify, and others were denied. With that much demand
and money, there is going to be discrepancies and failures. So how
do we ADDRESS that USING THAT SYSTEM.

That is part of what each group needs to police.

So that is why it may NOT be a good idea to legalize drugs
if you can't handle the drug addicts and abusers that flock to that policy!
The Christians can handle the gangs and drug dealers,
but they don't approve of enabling that abuse to continue.
So you take your pick, of which group you TRUST to manage
the crime and abuse as PART OF THE MEDICAL Treatment
Programs and Management.

 

[emilynghiem]

Allow taxpayers equal choice of funding their own plans, such as through their own PARTIES as a national collective source of discount membership rates!

Actually, that sounds way too complicated and someone will try to game the system.

PS JoeB131 regarding complicated
YES health care INVOLVES complicated detailed choices.
That's why it can't be nationalized under one policy fits all.

Since it gets into individual choices and beliefs,
that's why it's best to manage it LOCALLY where people
get to access "one on one" services and assistance.
This can't be done nationally through a federal program
but has to be democratized locally to reach all sectors and all individuals.

Of course it's complicated because of the diversity of people you are
talking about covering here with health care for life, in all possible situations!

So delegate that out to specialized groups, and let people CHOOSE
where to go to get the help they need that matches their needs and beliefs.

 

[MadChemist]

Allow taxpayers equal choice of funding their own plans, such as through their own PARTIES as a national collective source of discount membership rates!

Actually, that sounds way too complicated and someone will try to game the system.

But government run healthcare wouldn't be and nobody would game that system.

That's rich.

 

[MadChemist]

Case in point.

Mocking someone is a sign of arrogance....not that there was ever any question about you.

I'm as arrogant as all get out. But the problem with a guy like Cocksucker Dale is that he cares more about his own whackadoodle conspiracy theories than the people who actually suffer in things like 9/11 and Sandy Hook. He deserves to be mocked.

Spoken like a true left winger.......you know how things should run.

You can't understand why anyone would argue with you.

After all.....you are right.

And if you are wrong....see above.

 

[JoeB131]

But government run healthcare wouldn't be and nobody would game that system.

That's rich.

again- rest of the world does it that way and it works just fine.

Spoken like a true left winger.......you know how things should run.

You can't understand why anyone would argue with you.

Naw, guy, the thing was, up until 2008, i was pretty right wing.

Then Cigna Screwed me over, Bush crashed the economy, and I was left with busted investments and a lot of medical debt.

You see, unlike you rightwingnuts, I don't grasp onto a political philosophy until it hurts.

 

[MadChemist]

But government run healthcare wouldn't be and nobody would game that system.

That's rich.

again- rest of the world does it that way and it works just fine.

Spoken like a true left winger.......you know how things should run.

You can't understand why anyone would argue with you.

Naw, guy, the thing was, up until 2008, i was pretty right wing.

Then Cigna Screwed me over, Bush crashed the economy, and I was left with busted investments and a lot of medical debt.

You see, unlike you rightwingnuts, I don't grasp onto a political philosophy until it hurts.

It does not "work just fine" (as in everyone is happy). It works for them as some servicable level and they continue to use it. I get that. We have a lot of people in the U.S. who were plenty happy with the system prior to Obamacare.

Your pocketbook runs your politics. I get that.

When you were right wing, did you spout of words like "liberty" and "freedom" ?

 

[emilynghiem]

But government run healthcare wouldn't be and nobody would game that system.

That's rich.

again- rest of the world does it that way and it works just fine.

Spoken like a true left winger.......you know how things should run.

You can't understand why anyone would argue with you.

Naw, guy, the thing was, up until 2008, i was pretty right wing.

Then Cigna Screwed me over, Bush crashed the economy, and I was left with busted investments and a lot of medical debt.

You see, unlike you rightwingnuts, I don't grasp onto a political philosophy until it hurts.

Dear JoeB131
???
What "rest of the world" has a working govt run health care system that works cost effectively???

If you mean SMALLER countries, then that's why people argue that STATES should manage their own programs for their own populations. Some NATIONS are the size of STATES.
But AMERICA as a whole has 50 States of DIVERSE populations.

So if you compare the Nations of Europe with States in America,
Do you really believe ONE HUGE GOVT run system that could cover different countries making up EUROPE would work?

Maybe you mean STATE run, not one national system trying to make decisions for 300 million across 50 different states where TX and CA are already larger than some countries!!!

 

[emilynghiem]

Case in point.

Mocking someone is a sign of arrogance....not that there was ever any question about you.

I'm as arrogant as all get out. But the problem with a guy like Cocksucker Dale is that he cares more about his own whackadoodle conspiracy theories than the people who actually suffer in things like 9/11 and Sandy Hook. He deserves to be mocked.

LOL! You simply suffer from an over-inflated sense of self and you have no debate skills. Your arrogance is simply a cover for your ignorance. People die in false flag events all the time (like 9/11/01) and then there are no victims in staged events like Sandy Hoax. "Mock" me to your heart's content, Cocksucker Joe, because your lame attempts to refute what I post amuses me. I would dare say that there are more people here (with the ability to reason) that agree that somethings reeks as it pertains to these events than those that nod like a bunch of sheeple.

View attachment 163473

I will give Joe credit that when we stick to the topic of Obamacare, he does speak honestly and to the point of what he believes. So that's workable with, regardless if his ego makes him believe he is totally right.

If he is so right about it, why not set this system up and pay for it with the people like JoeB131 who are so confident it will work they are willing to pay and MAKE it work.

Set it up first with true believers, then others will join after proving it works!
That's true confidence. When you are willng to invest the time labor and money to
make it work and PROVE that it works! Right?

P.S.
Dear Dale Smith
Don't take Joe's bait. Don't give him back what he asks or he's entrapped you and gotten you to stoop to his level.

Stick to content point and principles, no name calling or low cracks, no slap backs in response.

Just let his mockery fall flat on deaf ears or he thinks he's won.

Stick to the arguments, and you're right, he's going to fall flat if he can't back them up. Subtract anything else that distracts otherwise.

Thanks Dale you are a better person
so always respond in ways that reflect that

 

[Auld Phart]

Mod Note:

12 posts deleted for trolling, being off topic.

The OP is about Obamacare, not 9/11, etc.

 

[emilynghiem]

i'm just curious how the people are getting "screwed" by the mandate. I mean other than Libertarian Tards who don't want no gummit doing nothin' for them.

Dear JoeB131

I can't afford the 695 fine or the cost of membership in any of the programs or options that would qualify for exemption.

I need my full tax return to pay rent that I owe by the end of each year because my salary doesn't cover it.

Before the mandate, I didn't have to worry about this added fine or costs per month, because I either had insurance through work, or friends or charity in the Vietnamese community would cover if I had additional medical costs I couldn't afford such as medicine prescriptions or doctor visits that my insurance didn't cover.

Since the mandate passed, and since I lost my job that used to have affordable insurance, I have been under constant stress, even going through 6-9 months of anxiety and depression worrying about how I was going to afford to pay this cost when all my salary is needed to cover debts I took on to help save the historic district where I live. This takes up my whole salary, even when I work working TWO jobs to cover the costs. I could not afford to add 45 a month, or now a 600-700 fine. But I tried to pay the 45 a month for as long as I could after I lost my work insurance.

Now that I got hit by HARVEY, guess what JoeB131
I lost my car so I could no longer work two jobs that required driving back and forth across town. I had to borrow a car and struggle just to keep my one part time job I have left. Now I am using a car that I don't trust except to drive 20 min to work and back.

So I cannot afford to cover my bills, but am getting by just because some got delayed out of courtesy because of Harvey.

I cannot afford to pay fines for not buying insurance.
I usually get my medical or emergency costs paid by friends or charity volunteers who understand I have spent over 60,000 in credit bailing out nonprofits. So all my money goes to paying that each month, plus my storage fees for moving my stuff out of my rental unit to let a volunteer live there.

This fine penalizes me more than I can afford,
so I live in constant stress especially after Harvey.

I do not believe I should be fined when I rely on friends or charity to pay for any costs VOLUNTARILY. Because they know I have voluntarily paid costs for charity when it was my turn to help.

Why should I be fined for that?

And if you say I should register for the marketplace to "get a hardship exemption"
why should I have to register for something I didn't consent to?

I understand if you WANT to be under govt health care, then you follow their rules.

But what if YOU DON'T CONSENT.

What is wrong with allowing people to OPT IN.
So you fill out a form if you want to ENROLL.

But if you don't then you agree to go through other programs to pay for your health care!

Under the current ACA, only the programs the GOVT APPROVES are exempted. And JoeB131 the "religious health sharing ministries" that qualify are a RELIGIOUS organization.

So basically the cheapest way I found to meet the exemption to avoid having to register was to PAY to join a RELIGIOUS GROUP.

Isn't that govt regulating citizens by RELIGIOUS membership?
which the Govt approves through federal regulations?

So this also goes against my beliefs that govt cannot regulate or discriminate, much less fine people, on the basis of joining
a religious group or not!

JoeB131 this is totally against my beliefs.
I had suffered what i call "political depression" over this
until Trump pushed the campaign to try to lighten the enforcement of the mandate and to get it repealed.

It's not fair to hold this unconstitutional mandate like a gun to the heads of people playing roulette, not knowing if the gun will drop
before the bullet hits. I cannot afford to pay if that mandate is still in effect when I need to get my tax return to pay all the back rent.

I dodged the bullet before, because I had work insurance, and then I paid for the health shares to get exempted. But now I cannot even pay my bills after losing my car to Harvey.

And registering to try to get exempted is against my beliefs because I do not believe that is constitutional in the first place.

Sorry but I even offered to go on hunger strike if this
extortion didn't get removed.

All it takes JoeB131 is to make the ACA program OPTIONAL to fund and participate in. That's all. Then it would be constitutional to give people free choice of public health care.

But it is unconstitutional to force people to pay into it
where it is against the beliefs of people like me.