Vietnam War and question for the boomer generation

[Mr Natural]

Conscription is NOT SLAVERY. You also forget (in the United States) the relationship between conscription and volunteering. That is historically a substantial number of Americans volunteered for service in part due to the existence of a draft so they would have some control over their fates.

Slavery is exactly what it is.

Or do you prefer the term "Involuntary Servitude"?

 

[Desperado]

Consc

Americans were willing to die rather than allow communists to enslave a peaceful ally who wanted no part of them.

Most were enslaved via the draft and expected to needlessly give their lives for a meaningless military escapade.

The thing I’m most proud of my Boomer Generation doing was getting rid of the the draft.

Nobody has gotten rid of the draft. It's just not presently being used. Doesn't mean it won't be back in use tomorrow or fifteen minutes from now.

There would be hell to pay if they even tried to bring it back,
No Presidential candidate could get away with supporting the draft

People said the same thing last time. Then they drafted me. Tends to make people a bit skeptical.

The nature of military service has changed in the last 50 years.
It s not as labor intensive and is more specialized and high skilled
A Volunteer service is optimal

What changes in the military is peacetime vs wartime. We have had a basically peacetime military since Vietnam. But you forget that highly skilled/trained people were prime targets of the draft and will be again. Those folks tend to be highly successful and well paid in cushy civilian employment. Do you honestly think they are going to run out and enlist for a drastic cut in pay, and horrible living conditions away from their loved ones (to possibly never see them again)? Should war come our more effeminate soldiers will be leaving the military post haste and will need to be replaced. I am-and always have been-against the draft. Nations that require slave armies to exist simply don't deserve to. If citizens are unwilling to attend to the duties and responsibilities of citizenship they deserve to become slaves to whoever will take them.

Conscription is NOT SLAVERY. You also forget (in the United States) the relationship between conscription and volunteering. That is historically a substantial number of Americans volunteered for service in part due to the existence of a draft so they would have some control over their fates.

Conscription is NOT SLAVERY yes it is!
If you get drafted you do not have a choice, either serve in the army or spend time in jail. Sounds like slavery to me when you don't have a choice on how you live your life.

 

[Moonglow]

After WWII, there were calls from around the world that imperialism should be put to rest and countries should all have their own representation. Viet Nam, with Ho Chi Min had begged the UN and United States to have his country be free of the French imperialism rule. But the French who were devastated by the war, didnt want to relinquish their rule of the gooks of Viet Nam, and the UN and Truman agreed with France. So Ho Chi, went to war with the French, and we all know how that ended....

Thank the French and Democrats for always getting US fucked....

The US took over during Eisenhower

 

[Dayton3]

Consc

Americans were willing to die rather than allow communists to enslave a peaceful ally who wanted no part of them.

Most were enslaved via the draft and expected to needlessly give their lives for a meaningless military escapade.

The thing I’m most proud of my Boomer Generation doing was getting rid of the the draft.

Nobody has gotten rid of the draft. It's just not presently being used. Doesn't mean it won't be back in use tomorrow or fifteen minutes from now.

There would be hell to pay if they even tried to bring it back,
No Presidential candidate could get away with supporting the draft

People said the same thing last time. Then they drafted me. Tends to make people a bit skeptical.

The nature of military service has changed in the last 50 years.
It s not as labor intensive and is more specialized and high skilled
A Volunteer service is optimal

What changes in the military is peacetime vs wartime. We have had a basically peacetime military since Vietnam. But you forget that highly skilled/trained people were prime targets of the draft and will be again. Those folks tend to be highly successful and well paid in cushy civilian employment. Do you honestly think they are going to run out and enlist for a drastic cut in pay, and horrible living conditions away from their loved ones (to possibly never see them again)? Should war come our more effeminate soldiers will be leaving the military post haste and will need to be replaced. I am-and always have been-against the draft. Nations that require slave armies to exist simply don't deserve to. If citizens are unwilling to attend to the duties and responsibilities of citizenship they deserve to become slaves to whoever will take them.

Conscription is NOT SLAVERY. You also forget (in the United States) the relationship between conscription and volunteering. That is historically a substantial number of Americans volunteered for service in part due to the existence of a draft so they would have some control over their fates.

Conscription is NOT SLAVERY yes it is!
If you get drafted you do not have a choice, either serve in the army or spend time in jail. Sounds like slavery to me when you don't have a choice on how you live your life.

There are much worse things in life than not having a choice as to how you live your life.

 

[rightwinger]

Americans were willing to die rather than allow communists to enslave a peaceful ally who wanted no part of them. The idea of a few million dead communists just gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling. They killed my friends. You think I should kiss them?

50 years of history has shown that not to be true. The propaganda at the time talked about communist enslavement and mass murder. The fact is that the average Vietnamese person did better than they did under French or American occupation.
Yes, 60,000 Americans died rather than allow Vietnam to become communist. The few million “dead communists” you talk about were average civilians trying to survive in the midst of an unnecessary war.
Your friends died because of war hawks willing to sacrifice them for political and financial reasons

 

[rightwinger]

What changes in the military is peacetime vs wartime. We have had a basically peacetime military since Vietnam. But you forget that highly skilled/trained people were prime targets of the draft and will be again. Those folks tend to be highly successful and well paid in cushy civilian employment. Do you honestly think they are going to run out and enlist for a drastic cut in pay, and horrible living conditions away from their loved ones (to possibly never see them again)? Should war come our more effeminate soldiers will be leaving the military post haste and will need to be replaced. I am-and always have been-against the draft. Nations that require slave armies to exist simply don't deserve to. If citizens are unwilling to attend to the duties and responsibilities of citizenship they deserve to become slaves to whoever will take them.

The nature of military service has changed. Back in your day we used to call them “grunts”. Stick a rifle in their hands and send them to the front. A draft served that purpose. When they die, just draft more.

Since Vietnam, being a soldier requires more skill. Volunteers want to be there and are worth investing the money to teach those skills. They are also more motivated than your average draftee. We have fewer soldiers but they are more lethal.

 

[Desperado]

Consc

Americans were willing to die rather than allow communists to enslave a peaceful ally who wanted no part of them.

Most were enslaved via the draft and expected to needlessly give their lives for a meaningless military escapade.

The thing I’m most proud of my Boomer Generation doing was getting rid of the the draft.

Nobody has gotten rid of the draft. It's just not presently being used. Doesn't mean it won't be back in use tomorrow or fifteen minutes from now.

There would be hell to pay if they even tried to bring it back,
No Presidential candidate could get away with supporting the draft

People said the same thing last time. Then they drafted me. Tends to make people a bit skeptical.

The nature of military service has changed in the last 50 years.
It s not as labor intensive and is more specialized and high skilled
A Volunteer service is optimal

What changes in the military is peacetime vs wartime. We have had a basically peacetime military since Vietnam. But you forget that highly skilled/trained people were prime targets of the draft and will be again. Those folks tend to be highly successful and well paid in cushy civilian employment. Do you honestly think they are going to run out and enlist for a drastic cut in pay, and horrible living conditions away from their loved ones (to possibly never see them again)? Should war come our more effeminate soldiers will be leaving the military post haste and will need to be replaced. I am-and always have been-against the draft. Nations that require slave armies to exist simply don't deserve to. If citizens are unwilling to attend to the duties and responsibilities of citizenship they deserve to become slaves to whoever will take them.

Conscription is NOT SLAVERY. You also forget (in the United States) the relationship between conscription and volunteering. That is historically a substantial number of Americans volunteered for service in part due to the existence of a draft so they would have some control over their fates.

Conscription is NOT SLAVERY yes it is!
If you get drafted you do not have a choice, either serve in the army or spend time in jail. Sounds like slavery to me when you don't have a choice on how you live your life.

There are much worse things in life than not having a choice as to how you live your life.

Really, I thought we were fighting for freedom which I thought meant having a choice on how you live your life! God you have one very strange concept of freedom

 

[9thIDdoc]

Consc

Americans were willing to die rather than allow communists to enslave a peaceful ally who wanted no part of them.

Most were enslaved via the draft and expected to needlessly give their lives for a meaningless military escapade.

The thing I’m most proud of my Boomer Generation doing was getting rid of the the draft.

Nobody has gotten rid of the draft. It's just not presently being used. Doesn't mean it won't be back in use tomorrow or fifteen minutes from now.

There would be hell to pay if they even tried to bring it back,
No Presidential candidate could get away with supporting the draft

People said the same thing last time. Then they drafted me. Tends to make people a bit skeptical.

The nature of military service has changed in the last 50 years.
It s not as labor intensive and is more specialized and high skilled
A Volunteer service is optimal

What changes in the military is peacetime vs wartime. We have had a basically peacetime military since Vietnam. But you forget that highly skilled/trained people were prime targets of the draft and will be again. Those folks tend to be highly successful and well paid in cushy civilian employment. Do you honestly think they are going to run out and enlist for a drastic cut in pay, and horrible living conditions away from their loved ones (to possibly never see them again)? Should war come our more effeminate soldiers will be leaving the military post haste and will need to be replaced. I am-and always have been-against the draft. Nations that require slave armies to exist simply don't deserve to. If citizens are unwilling to attend to the duties and responsibilities of citizenship they deserve to become slaves to whoever will take them.

Conscription is NOT SLAVERY. You also forget (in the United States) the relationship between conscription and volunteering. That is historically a substantial number of Americans volunteered for service in part due to the existence of a draft so they would have some control over their fates.

I forget nothing. You forget that I've been there; done that and paid attention. I received my draft notice but enlisted for the very reason you state. I suspected I might be allergic to assorted chunks of metal penetrating my body. I was offered my choice of Army schools based on my scores on entrance testing but was required to commit to an additional 1-2 years service. I signed up and-following basic training-was indeed transported to my chosen school where I was promptly informed that the Army had completed it's contract by sending me to the school. I could be reassigned at any time at the army's discretion for any reason. Make no mistake, when you enter the military (government) owns you and retains the option to reclaim you for decades after you "get out". If you willfully or negligently damage yourself you will be charged with "Damaging Government Property" and penalized. Elsewhere slaves are considered an investment and are reasonably housed and fed but, as in other forms of slavery, in the military if you prove to be more a liability than an asset seriously bad things will happen to you which may include death or dismemberment.
Don't misunderstand. I do believe citizenship comes with a duty to serve the Nation if needed and would do it again if necessary and am proud of, and pleased with, my service. But signing up should always be optional rather than forced. If America is to be a free country it must not do so through slavery.

 

[9thIDdoc]

What changes in the military is peacetime vs wartime. We have had a basically peacetime military since Vietnam. But you forget that highly skilled/trained people were prime targets of the draft and will be again. Those folks tend to be highly successful and well paid in cushy civilian employment. Do you honestly think they are going to run out and enlist for a drastic cut in pay, and horrible living conditions away from their loved ones (to possibly never see them again)? Should war come our more effeminate soldiers will be leaving the military post haste and will need to be replaced. I am-and always have been-against the draft. Nations that require slave armies to exist simply don't deserve to. If citizens are unwilling to attend to the duties and responsibilities of citizenship they deserve to become slaves to whoever will take them.

The nature of military service has changed. Back in your day we used to call them “grunts”. Stick a rifle in their hands and send them to the front. A draft served that purpose. When they die, just draft more.

Since Vietnam, being a soldier requires more skill. Volunteers want to be there and are worth investing the money to teach those skills. They are also more motivated than your average draftee. We have fewer soldiers but they are more lethal.

Most of that is bullshit. The objectives in warfare remain the same. The tools continually change but the basics remain constant. Wars are won or lost by destroying the enemy or his assets. And it usually involves occupying or defending places. Neither of the things can be done without boots on the ground and those boots are worn by grunts. In many ways that makes him the most important weapon in the arsenal and vital to any war effort. Everything else in the military exists to support the grunt. That is the reality throughout human history and is unlikely to change anytime soon.
The average soldier in Vietnam enlisted rather than being drafted. Being a "volunteer" in no way indicates you want to be there or that you can or will do a better job than a draftee.

 

[9thIDdoc]

After WWII, there were calls from around the world that imperialism should be put to rest and countries should all have their own representation. Viet Nam, with Ho Chi Min had begged the UN and United States to have his country be free of the French imperialism rule. But the French who were devastated by the war, didnt want to relinquish their rule of the gooks of Viet Nam, and the UN and Truman agreed with France. So Ho Chi, went to war with the French, and we all know how that ended....

Thank the French and Democrats for always getting US fucked....

The US took over during Eisenhower

Untrue. The US never "took over". When did the US claim to own any part of Vietnam?

 

[Desperado]

The average soldier in Vietnam enlisted rather than being drafted. Being a "volunteer" in no way indicates you want to be there or that you can or will do a better job than a draftee.

These "volunteers" only enlisted because of the draft and by enlisting they thought they might get the job training they wanted.
What they actually got was 2 more years of active service than if they were drafted. I have heard horror stories of the Army breaking their word on the specified training even if the enlistee had contract. The smarter ones if they did not mind the extended service time joined the Navy or Air Force.

 

[rightwinger]

What changes in the military is peacetime vs wartime. We have had a basically peacetime military since Vietnam. But you forget that highly skilled/trained people were prime targets of the draft and will be again. Those folks tend to be highly successful and well paid in cushy civilian employment. Do you honestly think they are going to run out and enlist for a drastic cut in pay, and horrible living conditions away from their loved ones (to possibly never see them again)? Should war come our more effeminate soldiers will be leaving the military post haste and will need to be replaced. I am-and always have been-against the draft. Nations that require slave armies to exist simply don't deserve to. If citizens are unwilling to attend to the duties and responsibilities of citizenship they deserve to become slaves to whoever will take them.

The nature of military service has changed. Back in your day we used to call them “grunts”. Stick a rifle in their hands and send them to the front. A draft served that purpose. When they die, just draft more.

Since Vietnam, being a soldier requires more skill. Volunteers want to be there and are worth investing the money to teach those skills. They are also more motivated than your average draftee. We have fewer soldiers but they are more lethal.

Most of that is bullshit. The objectives in warfare remain the same. The tools continually change but the basics remain constant. Wars are won or lost by destroying the enemy or his assets. And it usually involves occupying or defending places. Neither of the things can be done without boots on the ground and those boots are worn by grunts. In many ways that makes him the most important weapon in the arsenal and vital to any war effort. Everything else in the military exists to support the grunt. That is the reality throughout human history and is unlikely to change anytime soon.
The average soldier in Vietnam enlisted rather than being drafted. Being a "volunteer" in no way indicates you want to be there or that you can or will do a better job than a draftee.

Thanks for your insight Sun Tsu

Yes the military has changed significantly from the Draft based Army you were in.
Warfare has changed
Grunts in trenches is not the way to win battles. Today’s Army is smaller and more mobile. They are more high tech and require more advanced training.

The days of recruiting high school dropouts and guys looking to avoid jail are gone for good. Today’s Army is more motivated and better educated and man for man...much more lethal.

Nice try with your BS that “the average Vietnam soldier enlisted”. You know better and I will not even bother to tell you why.

 

[longly]

In science, one verifies one's observations by submitting them to peer review. I remember something very clearly from the Vietnam War, but liberal friends and acquaintances tell me it never happened. I have done internet research, but I can't find anything in regards to this issue. Now I know she made those comments before the internet, but they should be in the history of the time. So here is the question for all the boomer generation that may be on this site: I remember Jane Fonda praising the Khmer Rouge for their victory in Cambodia; do you remember it? Do you have a source that would back up my memories?

American leftists were Pol Pot's cheerleaders - The Boston Globe

archive.boston.com

.

From the above link:

"But nowhere in the Times story was there a reminder that the Khmer Rouge was able to seize power only after the US Congress in 1975 cut off all aid to the embattled pro-American government of Lon Nol -- and that it did so despite frantic warnings of the bloodbath that would ensue. President Ford warned of "horror and tragedy" if Cambodia was abandoned to the Khmer Rouge and pleaded with Congress to supply Lon Nol's army with the tools it needed to defend itself.

Ford's warning was to no avail. Though US troops had come home two years earlier, American antiwar activists were still intent on effecting the "liberation" of Southeast Asia. Radicals like Jane Fonda, David Dellinger, and Tom Hayden stormed the country, denouncing anyone who opposed communist victory in Cambodia and Vietnam. On the campuses, in the media, and in Congress, it was taken on faith that a Khmer Rouge victory would bring peace and enlightened leadership to Cambodia."

 

[9thIDdoc]

What changes in the military is peacetime vs wartime. We have had a basically peacetime military since Vietnam. But you forget that highly skilled/trained people were prime targets of the draft and will be again. Those folks tend to be highly successful and well paid in cushy civilian employment. Do you honestly think they are going to run out and enlist for a drastic cut in pay, and horrible living conditions away from their loved ones (to possibly never see them again)? Should war come our more effeminate soldiers will be leaving the military post haste and will need to be replaced. I am-and always have been-against the draft. Nations that require slave armies to exist simply don't deserve to. If citizens are unwilling to attend to the duties and responsibilities of citizenship they deserve to become slaves to whoever will take them.

The nature of military service has changed. Back in your day we used to call them “grunts”. Stick a rifle in their hands and send them to the front. A draft served that purpose. When they die, just draft more.

Since Vietnam, being a soldier requires more skill. Volunteers want to be there and are worth investing the money to teach those skills. They are also more motivated than your average draftee. We have fewer soldiers but they are more lethal.

Most of that is bullshit. The objectives in warfare remain the same. The tools continually change but the basics remain constant. Wars are won or lost by destroying the enemy or his assets. And it usually involves occupying or defending places. Neither of the things can be done without boots on the ground and those boots are worn by grunts. In many ways that makes him the most important weapon in the arsenal and vital to any war effort. Everything else in the military exists to support the grunt. That is the reality throughout human history and is unlikely to change anytime soon.
The average soldier in Vietnam enlisted rather than being drafted. Being a "volunteer" in no way indicates you want to be there or that you can or will do a better job than a draftee.

Thanks for your insight Sun Tsu

Yes the military has changed significantly from the Draft based Army you were in.
Warfare has changed
Grunts in trenches is not the way to win battles. Today’s Army is smaller and more mobile. They are more high tech and require more advanced training.

The days of recruiting high school dropouts and guys looking to avoid jail are gone for good. Today’s Army is more motivated and better educated and man for man...much more lethal.

Nice try with your BS that “the average Vietnam soldier enlisted”. You know better and I will not even bother to tell you why.

You just can't be bothered with facts can you? Your imagination is always preferred and insisted upon.

How effective draftees in the Vietnam War actually were

The image of the men who fought in Vietnam is usually that of a draftee who didn't want to be there, likely from a poor family, who were sent to die while

www.wearethemighty.com

The image of the men who fought in Vietnam is usually that of a draftee who didn’t want to be there, likely from a poor family, who were sent to die while they were still teens. But nothing could be further from the truth. Only a third of Vietnam vets were draftees. The average age of U.S. troops in Southeast Asia was 23, and more than 80 percent had a high school diploma, twice as many as the World War II generation. They were more educated, affluent, and older than any assembled American fighting force who came before them.

 

[rightwinger]

Only a third of Vietnam vets were draftees.

They were more educated, affluent, and older than any assembled American fighting force who came before them.

Again you ignore those who “enlisted” in the service or MOS of their choice rather than being drafted. Not exactly a volunteer if you have a draft hanging over your head.

More educated and affluent than fighting forces BEFORE Vietnam
We are talking about volunteer forces AFTER Vietnam

 

[OKTexas]

In science, one verifies one's observations by submitting them to peer review. I remember something very clearly from the Vietnam War, but liberal friends and acquaintances tell me it never happened. I have done internet research, but I can't find anything in regards to this issue. Now I know she made those comments before the internet, but they should be in the history of the time. So here is the question for all the boomer generation that may be on this site: I remember Jane Fonda praising the Khmer Rouge for their victory in Cambodia; do you remember it? Do you have a source that would back up my memories?

American leftists were Pol Pot's cheerleaders - The Boston Globe

archive.boston.com

.

From the above link:

"But nowhere in the Times story was there a reminder that the Khmer Rouge was able to seize power only after the US Congress in 1975 cut off all aid to the embattled pro-American government of Lon Nol -- and that it did so despite frantic warnings of the bloodbath that would ensue. President Ford warned of "horror and tragedy" if Cambodia was abandoned to the Khmer Rouge and pleaded with Congress to supply Lon Nol's army with the tools it needed to defend itself.

Ford's warning was to no avail. Though US troops had come home two years earlier, American antiwar activists were still intent on effecting the "liberation" of Southeast Asia. Radicals like Jane Fonda, David Dellinger, and Tom Hayden stormed the country, denouncing anyone who opposed communist victory in Cambodia and Vietnam. On the campuses, in the media, and in Congress, it was taken on faith that a Khmer Rouge victory would bring peace and enlightened leadership to Cambodia."

I guess that answered your question. Beware, they are trying to bring the same "enlightened leadership" here, that Vietnam and Cambodia got.

.

 

[9thIDdoc]

Only a third of Vietnam vets were draftees.

They were more educated, affluent, and older than any assembled American fighting force who came before them.

Again you ignore those who “enlisted” in the service or MOS of their choice rather than being drafted. Not exactly a volunteer if you have a draft hanging over your head.

More educated and affluent than fighting forces BEFORE Vietnam
We are talking about volunteer forces AFTER Vietnam

My statement:
The average soldier in Vietnam enlisted rather than being drafted. Being a "volunteer" in no way indicates you want to be there or that you can or will do a better job than a draftee.
clearly refers to soldiers who served in Vietnam. Nobody else before or after. But there is no reason to believe that in the future the same will not be true for the same reasons. You are the one that falsely claimed that most who served in Vietnam were drafted. You are refuted.

 

[rightwinger]

Only a third of Vietnam vets were draftees.

They were more educated, affluent, and older than any assembled American fighting force who came before them.

Again you ignore those who “enlisted” in the service or MOS of their choice rather than being drafted. Not exactly a volunteer if you have a draft hanging over your head.

More educated and affluent than fighting forces BEFORE Vietnam
We are talking about volunteer forces AFTER Vietnam

My statement:
The average soldier in Vietnam enlisted rather than being drafted. Being a "volunteer" in no way indicates you want to be there or that you can or will do a better job than a draftee.
clearly refers to soldiers who served in Vietnam. Nobody else before or after. But there is no reason to believe that in the future the same will not be true for the same reasons. You are the one that falsely claimed that most who served in Vietnam were drafted. You are refuted.

You are being misleading
If you had a low draft number and enlisted, you were basically drafted

Your motivation still sucks
Doesn’t compare to today’s volunteers

Today’s Army doesn’t need a draft

 

[JustAGuy1]

Americans were willing to die rather than allow communists to enslave a peaceful ally who wanted no part of them. The idea of a few million dead communists just gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling. They killed my friends. You think I should kiss them?

50 years of history has shown that not to be true. The propaganda at the time talked about communist enslavement and mass murder. The fact is that the average Vietnamese person did better than they did under French or American occupation.
Yes, 60,000 Americans died rather than allow Vietnam to become communist. The few million “dead communists” you talk about were average civilians trying to survive in the midst of an unnecessary war.
Your friends died because of war hawks willing to sacrifice them for political and financial reasons

What a piece of crap liar you are. NOBODY did "better" under the Communists you idiot.

 

[rightwinger]

Americans were willing to die rather than allow communists to enslave a peaceful ally who wanted no part of them. The idea of a few million dead communists just gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling. They killed my friends. You think I should kiss them?

50 years of history has shown that not to be true. The propaganda at the time talked about communist enslavement and mass murder. The fact is that the average Vietnamese person did better than they did under French or American occupation.
Yes, 60,000 Americans died rather than allow Vietnam to become communist. The few million “dead communists” you talk about were average civilians trying to survive in the midst of an unnecessary war.
Your friends died because of war hawks willing to sacrifice them for political and financial reasons

What a piece of crap liar you are. NOBODY did "better" under the Communists you idiot.

History says you are wrong

Vietnam went from peasants working rice fields in extreme poverty to one of the fastest growing economies in the world.

In 1986, Vietnam launched a political and economic renewal campaign (Đổi Mới) that introduced reforms to facilitate the transition from a centralized economy to a "socialist-oriented market economy". Đổi Mới combined government planning with free-marketincentives and encouraged the establishment of private businesses and foreign investment, including foreign-owned enterprises. FBy the late 1990s, the success of the business and agricultural reforms ushered in under Đổi Mới was evident. More than 30,000 private businesses had been created, the economy was growing at an annual rate of more than 7%, and poverty was nearly halved.[35]

Throughout the 1990s, exports increased by as much as 20% to 30% in some years. In 1999, exports accounted for 40% of GDP, an impressive performance in the midst of the economic crisis that hit other countries in Asia

Economy of Vietnam - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org