Veganism and health.

[toobfreak]

In the beginning, in the Garden of Eden, both animals and humans were given a plantbased diet (Genesis 1:29-30) and God's design and intent was peace and harmony among all creation.

Well, you see, the fatal flaw to all of that argument is that the Book of Genesis by best accounts was written around 1500 BC, not at the dawn of time, so, who knows where they got their information nor how accurate it was.

When Was Each Book of the Bible Written? | Bible Gateway News & Knowledge

See the timeline of when each book of the Bible was written, understand challenges in dating them, and learn how scholars estimate the composition dates of ancient writing.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Honey, don't bother. I'm not interested in you saying the same things over and over. And me disproving it over and over. If you believe that Abel can render fat from a live animal, and me telling you that that isn't possible, then you have to link to a video of someone rendering fat from a live animal to prove it.. You can't. It's just that you wish Abel didn't kill an animal just to sacrifice it to God. I get that. It doesn't change scripture though.

Thats NOT what she said. You are not honest. Youve "disproved" NOTHING
And the condescending way you addressed her shows something about your character that is very un christian
buttercup , do you know the post number where you addressed this?

 

[buttercup]

Well, you see, the fatal flaw to all of that argument is that the Book of Genesis by best accounts was written around 1500 BC, not at the dawn of time, so, who knows where they got their information nor how accurate it was.

When Was Each Book of the Bible Written? | Bible Gateway News & Knowledge

See the timeline of when each book of the Bible was written, understand challenges in dating them, and learn how scholars estimate the composition dates of ancient writing.

www.biblegateway.com

I can respect your point of view... and it's true that there are different views on Genesis, even among Christians. But for a number of reasons, I've concluded that there are many compelling, good reasons to believe the Bible, and not take it in a completely metaphorical way, as some people do.

That said, I do think there ARE a few scriptures in the bible that were either mistranslated, or even edited... The bible itself (in Jeremiah) talks about the "lying pen of the scribes" who changed God's law. But overall, I believe the Bible is reliable and historically true.... and I think that one can use discernment when it comes to a few verses that may have been mistranslated or messed with.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Yeah, I stopped reading at firstborn milk...

This is what stunted spiritual growth looks like

 

[buttercup]

buttercup , do you know the post number where you addressed this?

The post about Abel? I addressed it at least twice. Here's one of the posts...and then I re-posted part of that post in a later post to her.

 

[Concerned American]

This is what stunted spiritual growth looks like

This ^^^ is an attack. Can you spell H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E? LOL

 

[Carl in Michigan]

This is What buttercup said:
When discussing that passage, first century Jewish historian Josephus wrote: “But Abel brought milk.” In the phrase ‘the firstborn of the fat of his flock’ the word translated "fat" in Hebrew is ֵcheleb, which is identical to the Hebrew word for "milk" ָ(chalab), but with different vowels. Since vowels were not added to the Hebrew alphabet until hundreds of years after Josephus, it is very likely that the original word describing Abel’s gift was milk rather than fat.

What The Irish ram tells you she said:
If you believe that Abel can render fat from a live animal, and me telling you that that isn't possible, then you have to link to a video of someone rendering fat from a live animal to prove it.. You can't. It's just that you wish Abel didn't kill an animal just to sacrifice it to God. I get that. It doesn't change scripture though

 

[The Irish Ram]

Thats NOT what she said. You are not honest. Youve "disproved" NOTHING
And the condescending way you addressed her shows something about your character that is very un christian
buttercup , do you know the post number where you addressed this?

I don't rummage through threads, so I may be paraphrasing, but when I used the Abel incident, I think buttercup said it doesn't say in the Bible that he killed it. My response was how did he render the fat if the animal was still alive. That is the gist of it.
You have attacked my character, and my Christianity. I try to stay away from personal attacks and just stick to using scripture to make a point, but you two just keep asking for it. How many people have to point that out before you listen?
And the arrogance of what you said about Woodz and you have the nerve to call me un Christian? Forgive me for turning to scripture but:

Matthew 7:3-5 Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

And if you think you are sowing seeds in this thread, you're nuts.

 

[toobfreak]

I don't rummage through threads, so I may be paraphrasing, but when I used the Abel incident, I think buttercup said it doesn't say in the Bible that he killed it.

I can't believe folks are still arguing diet, so let me sum it all up for everyone.

1. Diet is a personal choice based on likes, dislikes and natural body chemistry, pH, etc.
2. Eating meat replaced a pure agrarian lifestyle because it freed up time to develop other things.
3. Eating meat involves fish, poultry, seafood, and livestock.
4. Treatment of animals is a variable thing, some are treated better than others.
5. Some animals are not treated humanely; but contrast that with the fact that for centuries, people have killed other people with hanging, electrocution and other things I would not ever wish on a pig.
6. Eating vegetables has its ups and downs too. Carbs are not great for you and starches even less so.
7. No matter how another people chooses to eat, you are still free to eat or not to eat the way you want.
8. Just because your neighbor chooses to eat a different diet is no threat nor statement on your own food choices.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I can't believe folks are still arguing diet, so let me sum it all up for everyone.

1. Diet is a personal choice based on likes, dislikes and natural body chemistry, pH, etc.
2. Eating meat replaced a pure agrarian lifestyle because it freed up time to develop other things.
3. Eating meat involves fish, poultry, seafood, and livestock.
4. Treatment of animals is a variable thing, some are treated better than others.
5. Some animals are not treated humanely; but contrast that with the fact that for centuries, people have killed other people with hanging, electrocution and other things I would not ever wish on a pig.
6. Eating vegetables has its ups and downs too. Carbs are not great for you and starches even less so.
7. No matter how another people chooses to eat, you are still free to eat or not to eat the way you want.
8. Just because your neighbor chooses to eat a different diet is no threat nor statement on your own food choices.

^ The End.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I can't believe folks are still arguing diet, so let me sum it all up for everyone.

1. Diet is a personal choice based on likes, dislikes and natural body chemistry, pH, etc.
2. Eating meat replaced a pure agrarian lifestyle because it freed up time to develop other things.
3. Eating meat involves fish, poultry, seafood, and livestock.
4. Treatment of animals is a variable thing, some are treated better than others.
5. Some animals are not treated humanely; but contrast that with the fact that for centuries, people have killed other people with hanging, electrocution and other things I would not ever wish on a pig.
6. Eating vegetables has its ups and downs too. Carbs are not great for you and starches even less so.
7. No matter how another people chooses to eat, you are still free to eat or not to eat the way you want.
8. Just because your neighbor chooses to eat a different diet is no threat nor statement on your own food choices.

Just because your neighbor chooses to kill her baby is no threat or statement on your decision not to kill your own baby

Sorry but your list of reasons doesn't end the argument.

"Christians' and quasi-christians, including YOU and including the OP are lecturing US as to why I AM WRONG.
I will CONTINUE to point out your error.

It is NOT a personal Choice. Killing is a MORAL ISSUE that isn't going away

If you don't like hearing another opinion on a message board, UNWATCH THIS THREAD

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Veganism eschews the natural fertilization of crops using animal manures in favor of chemical fertilizers. These chemicals already have a profound environmental impact, which would be manifold times worse if veganism expands beyond its current numbers.

Lest you people who Demand the opposition STFU and have forgotten the OP Post

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Well, you see, the fatal flaw to all of that argument is that the Book of Genesis by best accounts was written around 1500 BC, not at the dawn of time, so, who knows where they got their information nor how accurate it was

Just curious. Do you call yourself Christian or are you not a Christian?

You clearly don't believe Genesis is THE WORD OF GOD. I do. Buttercup does.

People need to lay their cards on the table and stop trying to deceive. I want to know who I'm debating with.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I think buttercup said it doesn't say in the Bible that he killed it. My response was how did he render the fat if the animal was still alive. That is the gist of it.
You have attacked my character, and my Christianity

This is What buttercup said:
When discussing that passage, first century Jewish historian Josephus wrote: “But Abel brought milk.” In the phrase ‘the firstborn of the fat of his flock’ the word translated "fat" in Hebrew is ֵcheleb, which is identical to the Hebrew word for "milk" ָ(chalab), but with different vowels. Since vowels were not added to the Hebrew alphabet until hundreds of years after Josephus, it is very likely that the original word describing Abel’s gift was milk rather than fat.

What The Irish ram tells you she said:
If you believe that Abel can render fat from a live animal, and me telling you that that isn't possible, then you have to link to a video of someone rendering fat from a live animal to prove it.. You can't. It's just that you wish Abel didn't kill an animal just to sacrifice it to God. I get that. It doesn't change scripture though

 

[Woodznutz]

Not ignoring it, I don't need to address every word you type.
Eat what you want. God gave us everything that moves as food.
Jesus ate fish whether it fits or narrative or not.
Abel killed the offering he presented to the Lord. He didn't render fat from a live animal.
There is nothing taken outwardly in that defiles the temple.
Your opinions don't change scripture.

What Carl doesn't understand:
Brandi was 21 when a deer jumped out in front of her. She swerved, hit a tree head on, and that was her last day of life.
There are so many deer here because of all the fields of corn. It has become such a dangerous situation, that they give out hunting licenses year round. And we are safer because of it.
That may upset you, but common sense prevails. Deer are nice. Brandi is irreplaceable.

We have that problem here in Wisconsin. Drivers are advised not to swerve, that it is safer to just hit the deer than to risk a worse crash by swerving.

 

[Woodznutz]

Yet again you're stating something that has already been addressed, like 10,000 times.

Yes of course some animals are carnivores, because this is a fallen world. It's not the way it was in the beginning. In the beginning, in the Garden of Eden, both animals and humans were given a plantbased diet (Genesis 1:29-30) and God's design and intent was peace and harmony among all creation.

As has already been stated, once the fall happened things began to change, and have pretty much gone downhill ever since.

So it is extremely misleading (or even deceptive, if it's done knowingly) for you to say "the world is hardly merciful" if you're implying that is what God wants, when the exact opposite is true. There are countless scriptures that clearly state God wants MERCY. He wants us to be merciful.

You can't use the fallen world as an excuse to just throw your hands up in the air and say "this is a fallen world so let's go with it." We've talked about this specific point SO many times, over and over. We are supposed to have a Kingdom perspective, not a worldly perspective. We are supposed to pray for and want God's Kingdom to come and will to be done on earth as it is in Heaven. That's the part you always ignore, while just repeating the same stuff over and over again, never addressing what is being said.

I don't want to be rude, but when people bring things up that have already been addressed over and over, sometimes I wonder if you and others are elderly folk (in their 80s or 90s) who have trouble with their memory.... or maybe going senile.

Carl suggested that maybe God is using you to bring up the same arguments over and over so that OTHERS who haven't read these threads can hear the message. I don't know if that's the case, but come on, you gotta admit, it IS odd that you keep bringing up the same things over and over that have already been addressed.

As I said to Carl, that door swings both ways. There is a big difference between what scripture plainly says and what you and Carl are 'torturing' it to say.

 

[Woodznutz]

"I eat cows and pigs and chickens because. . pythons in Florida"

My point is that we have big problem there because we are so 'humane'. A little 'cruelty' might solve the problem.

I don't eat pork.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

We have that problem here in Wisconsin. Drivers are advised not to swerve, that it is safer to just hit the deer than to risk a worse crash by swerving.

I have to eat cows because I don't swerve for deer

 

[Carl in Michigan]

My point is that we have big problem there because we are so 'humane'. A little 'cruelty' might solve the problem.

I don't eat pork.

I know you don't. That's not the point

 

[Carl in Michigan]

As I said to Carl, that door swings both ways. There is a big difference between what scripture plainly says and what you and Carl are 'torturing' it to our just stick with one yhingsay.

But you don't dispute it. You get BIBLICAL ANSWERS but you and the other just throw out another "challenge" that's been addressed a thousand times before

I showed you early church writings that PROVE The APOSTLES DIDNT EAT MEAT. Can you JUST STICK WITH ONE POINT AND HASH IT OUT?

Im only interested in Honest debate. You should be too