Veganism and health.

[buttercup]

And btw, Woodznutz, you completely ignored my recent post #176, when I was answering a question YOU asked me. That has been the ongoing pattern. Ignore everything and just leap-frog to other issues, never addressing or resolving anything.

 

[Twisted Gypsy Child]

That is so laughably false, that I almost feel it's not worthy of a response.

But here's something important to know. Within veganism there is a range of different diets that are not all the same. Technically, someone could eat a "diet" of nothing but Oreos, and that could be considered a "vegan diet" simply because there are no animal products.

But a whole food plant-based diet? It's one of the healthiest if not THE healthiest diet of all.....that has been known to not only prevent disease, but actually reverse disease.

On this YouTube channel you will find TONS of testimonies of people who beat cancer or other diseases by radically changing their diet, to a whole food plant-based diet.

chrisbeatcancer

Nutrition and natural therapies for prevention and healing. Hi there! My name is Chris Wark. I was diagnosed with Stage 3 Colon Cancer in 2003, at 26 years old. I had surgery but refused chemo. I used nutrition and natural therapies to heal. By the grace of God, I'm alive and kicking...

www.youtube.com

Plus there are tons of studies going back many decades that say the same thing.

Carl in Michigan

FredVegbarfuss

Blues Man

It is not worth a response. FYI I have been called "all names in the book" because I am vegan.

 

[toobfreak]

You didn't address or even acknowledge anything I said in my post to you....If you're going to ignore everything I say
I'm sorry but that style of debating (ignoring what is said and leap-frogging to other things) is a pet peeve of mine.

So you reply by bitching about and then not addressing, ignoring and leap-frogging over everything she said as well?

Look, I'm glad you found vegetables and that they changed your life, made you twice as beautiful, and added 25 years to your life, but here are some facts:

1. Smoking is bad for you, except that some people smoke like a chimney and live well and don't die until they are 100 years old anyway.
2. Drinking is bad for you, except some people drink like a fish and you might not even know it.
3. Exercise is good for you, except some people who are exercise nuts still drop over dead in their 50s and 60s.
4. I grew up in a family which ate protein with every meal, then became a semi-vegan for 20 years (still ate chicken/fish and the rare piece of bacon). Then around 2006-2008, I went back to a regular full diet with no restrictions. It has not made jack squat of a difference in my life.

Bottom line, it isn't eating this or not eating that that matters, it is doing things in balance and moderation.

But Toob, what about animal rights? Animals today are treated better and have more rights than ever. But the solution to the problem of animal treatment is to keep fighting for better humane treatment of animals, not to just quit eating meat. News flash for you: Animals are food. Animals have been food for thousands/millions of years. Animals are high quality food. One might even argue that the animals were placed here for mankind's consumption.

 

[The Irish Ram]

You're doing the same thing again. You're completely ignoring everything I post, not answering straightforward questions, and you keep leap-frogging to other points.

If I take the time to write out detailed replies to you and you completely ignore them... why should you expect me to continually write more posts in response to new objections you're jumping to?

One step at a time. Back and forth. That is how civil debate works. It's not ignore everything that is said and never address anything, while continually leap-frogging to other issues and expecting me to chase all the balls you're throwing out. Debate is a 2-way street. Address the things I brought up, finish one topic and THEN we move to other things.

I don't ignore it. I pointed out the things that you posted that I don't believe follow scripture. I am not leapfrogging. My posts continue to focus on Christ eating fish and us eating meat, and what defiles the temple. You think meat defiles the temple. It does not. You fail to address the scripture that proves you wrong.

I love animals as much as you do, maybe more. I prefer them to humans. That does not change scripture.
When God says every thing that moves is food for us, it doesn't mean we have to eat every thing that moves.

Nowhere in that passage does it mention killing or that Abel offered a dead lamb to God

Good. Let's start there:
Gen.4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering.
Unless you think Abel rendered the fat from the animal without killing it first, then that animal died. Just like the animals God told the Jews to sacrifice, and what animal to use for what sin and which ones could be eaten.

This thread isn't about God's dietary plan for man. It's about you wanting a pat on the back from God for being a vegan, and using Him to validate your dietary belief that "dead carcasses" defile the temple. And you don't even do it as a sacrifice for God's sake. You do it because of your concern for the comfort of the animals. And when you are provided with the scriptures that prove that meat does not defile the temple, you brush it aside.

No matter how hard you try to make scripture conform to your "interpretation" of what defiles the temple, Jesus' words remain pertinent. There is nothing taken outwardly in that defiles the temple. Period. Listen to Him and understand that it is what comes out of our mouths that defiles the temple. Like hinting that others here are demonic, wicked, or ignorant of the truth. Swallow that...

 

[buttercup]

You think meat defiles the temple.

I stopped reading right there. Because I just finished telling you in post #160 that I didn't say meat defiles the temple. Then I went on to explain that you misapplied that Matthew passage and I showed you why.

So the fact that you are repeating something that I already told you I didn't claim SHOWS that you are ignoring my posts, or maybe not even reading them.

 

[buttercup]

So you reply by bitching about and then not addressing, ignoring and leap-frogging over everything she said as well?

Look, I'm glad you found vegetables and that they changed your life, made you twice as beautiful, and added 25 years to your life, but here are some facts:

1. Smoking is bad for you, except that some people smoke like a chimney and live well and don't die until they are 100 years old anyway.
2. Drinking is bad for you, except some people drink like a fish and you might not even know it.
3. Exercise is good for you, except some people who are exercise nuts still drop over dead in their 50s and 60s.
4. I grew up in a family which ate protein with every meal, then became a semi-vegan for 20 years (still ate chicken/fish and the rare piece of bacon). Then around 2006-2008, I went back to a regular full diet with no restrictions. It has not made jack squat of a difference in my life.

Bottom line, it isn't eating this or not eating that that matters, it is doing things in balance and moderation.

But Toob, what about animal rights? Animals today are treated better and have more rights than ever. But the solution to the problem of animal treatment is to keep fighting for better humane treatment of animals, not to just quit eating meat. News flash for you: Animals are food. Animals have been food for thousands/millions of years. Animals are high quality food. One might even argue that the animals were placed here for mankind's consumption.

You brought up the health aspect, and even though that IS the topic of this thread, that has never been my focus, and it's not what a few of us have been talking about recently on this thread (which admittedly IS off topic, but I'm not the one who resurrected this thread to re-start up the debate.)

As for the second thing you said, no they are absolutely not treated better or have rights, that is demonstrably false. Animals may be "food" to the overwhelming majority of the world, but in the beginning, they were not created to be food, that was never the purpose or reason animals were created.

 

[buttercup]

It is not worth a response. FYI I have been called "all names in the book" because I am vegan.

Same. And btw, even though we disagree on politics, I'm glad you're here on this vegan thread and I hope you participate more on these types of threads. It's usually just Carl and me, outnumbered like 50 to 2.

 

[toobfreak]

I stopped reading right there.

What I wonder BC is: WHY DO YOU CARE? So what if your vegan? Great for you. But why do you care to argue what others eat? Why not just eat what appeals to you and let others do the same?

I just don't get your beef with others here. Folks here try to meat you in the middle but you'll just have none of it.

I gave thought to inviting you over to share the 4th of July with us, our cookout, drinks, games and fireworks afterwards but my wife was afraid you might not like bottle rockets. Your loss.

 

[toobfreak]

As for the second thing you said, no they are absolutely not treated better or have rights, that is demonstrably false.

Wrong. There is a lot of room for improvement, but things are slowly improving.

Animals may be "food" to the overwhelming majority of the world, but in the beginning, they were not created to be food, that was never the purpose or reason animals were created.

Do you really pretend to actually know that? Everything on this earth that is edible and nutritious is food. That is the nature of food. There is no considering "why they were created." And they have been eaten for at least hundreds of thousands of years, in fact, some scientists argue that the high quality protein is what freed us from a purely agrarian society to develop science, art and culture.

 

[Woodznutz]

No she wasn't. She was rapid-fire shooting out OTHER topics while ignoring nearly everything I said in my previous posts that I took the time to write out.

You guys rarely address anything.

For example, here's a question for you:

When you have the choice between mercy or violence.... in light of the fact that God repeatedly commands us throughout the Bible to choose MERCY, and when we know what God's ideal is (as stated in Genesis 1:29 and the prophetic scriptures about the Peaceable Kingdom) why choose needless violence? Please answer that question. I know what the answer will be from non-Christians. But I'm not asking them, I'm asking you and TIR. Why choose needless killing and violence over mercy, when God wants us to choose mercy and honor His true intent for all creation?

That's a false choice. God created these animals for our food. People who kill them aren't violent, merciless people. If you want to live a 'millennial lifestyle' that's fine. Most Christians will happily wait for it, enjoying God's blessings in the meantime.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I stopped reading right there. Because I just finished telling you in post #160 that I didn't say meat defiles the temple. Then I went on to explain that you misapplied that Matthew passage and I showed you why.

So the fact that you are repeating something that I already told you I didn't claim SHOWS that you are ignoring my posts, or maybe not even reading them.

Which is not what you said in your post #18.

Yup. My reason for going vegan had nothing to do with health. BUT it just so happened to make me much healthier, as I've mentioned many times on other threads.

What do I want to put in my body....decaying corpses of animals who were abused, tortured and begged for mercy til their last moment? Or REAL food that we were designed to eat from the start?

Since our bodies are temples, I think the answer to that question is clear:

 

[buttercup]

What I wonder BC is: WHY DO YOU CARE? So what if your vegan? Great for you. But why do you care to argue what others eat? Why not just eat what appeals to you and let others do the same?

I just don't get your beef with others here. Folks here try to meat you in the middle but you'll just have none of it.

I gave thought to inviting you over to share the 4th of July with us, our cookout, drinks, games and fireworks afterwards but my wife was afraid you might not like bottle rockets. Your loss.

View attachment 1133908

Why do I care? For lots of reasons but the short answer is, as a Christian, God has put it on my heart to be a voice for the voiceless (which is exactly what we what are commanded to do, Proverbs 31:8) and to speak the truth, because most people are blissfully unaware of what actually goes on, on a daily basis. It's a literal horror show.... with animals that are no different than our beloved dogs or cats being treated in the most cruel and even diabolical ways, and it's people's choices that cause all the suffering, pain, terror and needless killing... in astronomical numbers.

Thanks for the thought and almost invite to 4th of July.

Wrong. There is a lot of room for improvement, but things are slowly improving.

Any improvements that are happening are only because of people who care and speak up and do things. If no one did anything, then things would never change and would most likely only get worse.

But that doesn't change the fact that what you said earlier is simply not the case. There are still tons of daily practices that take place that completely disregard the lives of animals.... and these animals look to US to take care of them. They trust us and we betray them, in the worst possible ways.

Do you really pretend to actually know that? Everything on this earth that is edible and nutritious is food. That is the nature of food. There is no considering "why they were created." And they have been eaten for at least hundreds of thousands of years, in fact, some scientists argue that the high quality protein is what freed us from a purely agrarian society to develop science, art and culture.

I'm speaking from a Christian standpoint when I say that animals were not created for the purpose of being mere menu items. I don't expect non-Christians or nominal Christians to agree with me on that...

But even if we set aside Christianity for a moment and look at this from a purely common sense standpoint, please answer this question.....

Do you really think that a PERFECT God of love, peace and mercy would create animals with a central nervous system, a brain, emotions, the ability to suffer and feel pain or fear.... only to be mere food items? As if they were nothing but objects? No, of course a perfect God of love would not do that and that's because God did NOT do that.

From a Christian perspective, in the beginning, when God created the world, the Bible is crystal clear that ALL creation was plantbased. (Genesis 1:29-30) Animals were created to be companions and live alongside mankind, in peace and harmony, and it was our job to take care of them, as responsible and loving stewards, not selfish merciless tyrants.

So yeah, in regard to the reason animals were created in the first place, I am stating what I believe, not only based on my Christian views, but also on common sense and logic.

 

[buttercup]

I gotta make like a baby and head out, I have a meeting at 1 (in 5 minutes.) I'll try to get back here later, to reply to any recent posts.

 

[toobfreak]

God has put it on my heart to be be a voice for the voiceless

Either God or your own conscience. But then most atheists would probably quip back that if God wants animals to be treated better, why put you on it and not just fix things himself?

Any improvements that are happening are only because of people who care and speak up and do things.

No doubt about that.

But that doesn't change the fact that what you said earlier is simply not the case. There are still tons of daily practices that take place that completely disregard the lives of animals....

A lot of people have no compassion for their fellow human so why should they care about an animal?

and these animals look to US to take care of them. They trust us

I'm not sure who the animals trust or look to. They are rather reticent about that.

and we betray them,

Or at the very least, continue to eat them. But most of those animals live pretty good lives, up until that last day.

I'm speaking from a Christian standpoint

Yet there is plenty of animal killing in the Bible. And in Genesis 1:26, it says: " Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." Then in Genesis 1:28-30, it says: God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." God said, "See, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life." And it was so.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Wrong. There is a lot of room for improvement, but things are slowly improving.


Do you really pretend to actually know that? Everything on this earth that is edible and nutritious is food. That is the nature of food. There is no considering "why they were created." And they have been eaten for at least hundreds of thousands of years, in fact, some scientists argue that the high quality protein is what freed us from a purely agrarian society to develop science, art and culture.

Absolutely correct. For one thing, God can see the end from the beginning. He knew exactly how many animals would be sacrificed at the altar, and for food. And created them anyway. And most of the animals God created are carnivores. A kind and loving God created lions, whose protein is antelopes. Big fish that eat little fishes. Sharks that actually eat their siblings in the womb, and think seal babies are delicious.

butter, do you honestly believe that God didn't know when he created a wolf that it would end up eating the bunny that God also created? God created carnivores in nearly every biological classification.

I commend your fortitude for animals. It is one I share. My crazy daughter has a suction gun she catches bugs in that find their way inside, and then releases them outside. That is how tender her heart is.
But until the lion lays down with the lamb, the lamb will continue to be food for the lion.

 

[toobfreak]

Absolutely correct. For one thing, God can see the end from the beginning. He knew exactly how many animals would be sacrificed at the altar, and for food. And created them anyway.

True. If God did not want us killing animals, why did he invent carnivores which have been devouring other animals alive en masse for millions of years far more than man ever will? If we want to go down that road, then ask, why is there suffering, death and war?

God created lions, whose protein is antelopes. Big fish that eat little fishes. Sharks that actually eat their siblings in the womb, and think seal babies are delicious.

The entire animal kingdom is a hierarchy of dominion. Hey, I'm all for a good vegetable, Lord knows I've grown enough of them, but there is nothing better than a plate of great vegetables alongside a nice cut of protein.

I commend your fortitude for animals. It is one I share. My crazy daughter has a suction gun she catches bugs in that find their way inside, and then releases them outside. That is how tender her heart is.

I love animals. I used to catch house spiders in a glass and taken them outside and release them in the garden. But I am also a realist. I know animals suffer. People suffer too. Not eating meat is a matter of conscience, I get that, it kept me from eating meat for 20 years, but I also know that most farm animals have great lives, and if you really want to, you can buy beef ostensibly grown on organic whole grains and officially, humanely slaughtered.

It is a personal choice.

Just as is religion. Or drinking Pepsi. That is why despite being very religious, I don't push it on others or lecture them on their sins nor lecture people on diet and living telling them how to live and eat. How you believe and how you eat are personal choices.

 

[The Irish Ram]

No, of course a perfect God of love would not do that and that's because God did NOT do that

God did exactly that. Everything that moves, we were given permission to eat.
Let's take humans out of the picture completely:
The layers of sediment exposed in the Grand Canyon show the condition of life on earth in specific periods. There is a fascinating fossil of a fish in the process of eating another fish, in a very early period of life on this earth.
Did God care less about the little fish than the bigger fish?
Why didn't God create all vegetarian animals? Cows don't eat chickens, why do foxes?

 

[Woodznutz]

So you reply by bitching about and then not addressing, ignoring and leap-frogging over everything she said as well?

Look, I'm glad you found vegetables and that they changed your life, made you twice as beautiful, and added 25 years to your life, but here are some facts:

1. Smoking is bad for you, except that some people smoke like a chimney and live well and don't die until they are 100 years old anyway.
2. Drinking is bad for you, except some people drink like a fish and you might not even know it.
3. Exercise is good for you, except some people who are exercise nuts still drop over dead in their 50s and 60s.
4. I grew up in a family which ate protein with every meal, then became a semi-vegan for 20 years (still ate chicken/fish and the rare piece of bacon). Then around 2006-2008, I went back to a regular full diet with no restrictions. It has not made jack squat of a difference in my life.

Bottom line, it isn't eating this or not eating that that matters, it is doing things in balance and moderation.

But Toob, what about animal rights? Animals today are treated better and have more rights than ever. But the solution to the problem of animal treatment is to keep fighting for better humane treatment of animals, not to just quit eating meat. News flash for you: Animals are food. Animals have been food for thousands/millions of years. Animals are high quality food. One might even argue that the animals were placed here for mankind's consumption.

The human digestive system loves meat.

 

[toobfreak]

The human digestive system loves meat.

I might also point out that our teeth are made for tearing flesh. That is, until they are all rotted away from guzzling mass quantities of Coke while stuffing one's face with Ho Hos, Twinkies, and Sno Balls.

 

[The Irish Ram]

When you have the choice between mercy or violence.... in light of the fact that God repeatedly commands us throughout the Bible to choose MERCY, and when we know what God's ideal is (as stated in Genesis 1:29 and the prophetic scriptures about the Peaceable Kingdom) why choose needless violence? Please answer that question. I know what the answer will be from non-Christians. But I'm not asking them, I'm asking you and TIR. Why choose needless killing and violence over mercy, when God wants us to choose mercy and honor His true intent for all creation?

Mercy, of course. Your first sentence takes me to the trick question the Pharisees put to Jesus. Do you keep the Law and stone her to death, or do you show mercy and break the Law? But while God's plan is mercy, there is a time to turn plowshares into swords, (Joel 3:10) and a time to turn swords into plowshares (Isaiah 2:4)
This is earth. God is still dealing with His earthy children on our level.

And, dear buttercup, and I mean that, there is an old song about how good bananas taste. One line goes, "50 million monkeys can't be wrong." This isn't a pile on against you and Carl, whom I am also fond of. But if you feel that it is 50 against 2, could it be that the 50 may not be the ones that are wrong?

Speaking of Carl, since he split, tell him that the reason Daniel refused the King's food wasn't because he was vegan. It was because he couldn't be sure the food hadn't been used in a pagan ritual before it was offered to him...