Veganism and health.

[Carl in Michigan]

^ That post is the height of arrogance.
On your side? Do we have sides now?

Yes. We have sides. I love God's Creation and NOTHING dies or suffers at my hand. Wildlife passes through my small property and here they find food and water. I have foxes eating with opossums and raccoons and squirrels and I watch them eat together.

Animals sense a lot. They know where they can find peace. Like I've always said, ALL CREATION GROANS awaiting Man's change. The nature of animal will change when Man's nature changes. That comes with repentance

That is my "side.". Nothing dies or suffers for my life. I'm not that important. But you call ME arrogant

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Speaking of Carl, since he split

No, I didn't "split." But I do avoid a contentious spirit.

I'm torn between responding to everyone who is here to "argue, and to wait for the rare gem who really strives to hear truth. Mostly here, people come to defend their staked out position. If I can't reason with you I will leave it at that unless I feel some other reader is being misled.

 

[toobfreak]

This isn't a pile on against you and Carl, whom I am also fond of. But if you feel that it is 50 against 2, could it be that the 50 may not be the ones that are wrong?

Just an observation:

Why is it that vegans are always trying to push their beliefs on others while meat eaters never do?! I have yet to ever see a one-sided heavy meat eater ever get on a thread and go after vegans telling them they need to eat more beef (unless asked first).

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Daniel refused the King's food wasn't because he was vegan

How do you know this?

Do you know the apostles were not meat eaters? John the Baptist? Jesus?
Yes there is evidence God's prophets were vegan. I've posted the information several times before but you folks apply ignore it and throw out another argument. THIS is why I'm weary of these games.

 

[Woodznutz]

I might also point out that our teeth are made for tearing flesh. That is, until they are all rotted away from guzzling mass quantities of Coke while stuffing one's face with Ho Hos, Twinkies, and Sno Balls.

Cooked flesh.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I might also point out that our teeth are made for tearing flesh.

Another recycled argument

 

[buttercup]

God did exactly that.

No He didn't, you are moving the goal posts! In my post to Toob, I SPECIFICALLY was talking about the creation of the earth and the animals in the beginning, which was God's intent and ideal. Their purpose at creation was NOT to be mere food items, and that is made clear in Genesis 1:29-30 and other scriptures.

The original purpose for animals was to live alongside us in peace and harmony, to be companions, they were not created to be our slaves, or mere objects to abuse, exploit and needlessly kill.

So what you are bringing up is NOT what I was talking about which is their original true purpose, which was God's intent and WILL be restored when Jesus returns, and the "wolf will live with the lamb"....and "none will harm or destroy" as the world will be filled with the knowledge of God. (Isaiah 11:6-9)

Why didn't God create all vegetarian animals? Cows don't eat chickens, why do foxes?

He DID! Were you not aware that in the Garden of Eden ALL creation was plantbased? Read Genesis 1:29-30. Specifically verse 30. Before the Fall of man happened, the world was very different than how it is today. Predation was NOT part of God's original design, it is an aspect of this fallen world.

And again, when Jesus returns God is going to restore that initial Edenic world of peace and harmony. THAT is the future, from a Christian standpoint, and we are supposed to have an eternal perspective, and be READY for the coming Kingdom, and in the meantime want God's perfect will on earth as it is in Heaven.

ETA: Here's a short video for you from my channel, since you seem to be unaware of how things were originally:

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Just an observation:

Why is it that vegans are always trying to push their beliefs on others while meat eaters never do?! I have yet to ever see a one-sided heavy meat eater ever get on a thread and go after vegans telling them they need to eat more beef (unless asked first).

Who started this thread? You need a safe space where threads like this won't be challenged?

 

[toobfreak]

Cooked flesh.

That is why God invented fire.

 

[buttercup]

And in Genesis 1:26, it says: " Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." Then in Genesis 1:28-30, it says: God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." God said, "See, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life." And it was so.

Already went over this just last night. Dominion was and is NOT a license to do whatever the hell we want with animals. What many folks seem unaware of is that in the very next verse after the dominion verse, God gave mankind and all creation our diet which was 100% plantbased. (Genesis 1:29-30)

So obviously dominion did NOT mean "you can eat and abuse the animals" since immediately after we were given dominion we were given a plantbased diet.

I wrote a blog post on this specific topic. I thought you and I had this same conversation before (maybe it was someone else) but IF you have any interest in the topic of dominion, you can check out that blog post if you want:

A Closer Look At Dominion - Live Mercifully

As a Christian vegan, one of the most common objections to veganism that I encounter when talking to other Christians is, “But man was given dominion over the animals.” So I want to talk about this very important concept that I believe has been deeply misunderstood. This misunderstanding is at...

www.livemercifully.com

I also did a video on it, that I posted last night, a page or two back on this thread.

 

[toobfreak]

Already went over this just last night. Dominion was and is NOT a license to do whatever the hell we want with animals.

Rats. You mean I can't break the legs off the animal I intend to eat first then beat it over the head with its own legs laughing before I slaughter it? What about poke the eyes out of the cattle so they are blind and can't see where I am as I come at them screaming and laughing with my hot branding iron?

I wrote a blog post on this specific topic. I thought you and I had this same conversation before (maybe it was someone else)

Nah, you remember right, it was me. But do understand that I love animals and am a great friend to all animals. For one thing, I would never hunt, shoot or kill even a rabbit even to save my own life. Maybe to save someone else's. I just sometimes play the devil's advocate here being the contrarian just to get people to think and look at both sides of some issues.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Yes. We have sides. I love God's Creation and NOTHING dies or suffers at my hand. Wildlife passes through my small property and here they find food and water. I have foxes eating with opossums and raccoons and squirrels and I watch them eat together.

Animals sense a lot. They know where they can find peace. Like I've always said, ALL CREATION GROANS awaiting Man's change. The nature of animal will change when Man's nature changes. That comes with repentance

That is my "side.". Nothing dies or suffers for my life. I'm not that important. But you call ME arrogant

I was referring to teaming up here on this site. I don't want that to happen. It is division where we should be coming together in Christ.

 

[The Irish Ram]

No, I didn't "split." But I do avoid a contentious spirit.

I'm torn between responding to everyone who is here to "argue, and to wait for the rare gem who really strives to hear truth. Mostly here, people come to defend their staked out position. If I can't reason with you I will leave it at that unless I feel some other reader is being misled.

Carl, ^ that post makes you a contentious spirit. You need a good rib eye...

But while I have you here, did you get the note on why Daniel didn't eat the King's food?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Except that if veganism was universal there wouldn't be any domestic food animals except maybe in zoos. Also, no pets if the PETA people had their way. What a sad world that would be.

Yeah, I don't know what I'd do without my pet human.

 

[The Irish Ram]

No, I didn't "split." But I do avoid a contentious spirit.

I'm torn between responding to everyone who is here to "argue, and to wait for the rare gem who really strives to hear truth. Mostly here, people come to defend their staked out position. If I can't reason with you I will leave it at that unless I feel some other reader is being misled.

By all means, respond. So far you have claimed to be the sower, and the truth. And yet you are with odds with Bible truth and turn to personal insults instead of supporting what you say with Biblical references.
Your truth about Noah having no choice but to eat meat since there were no farms or orchards is misleading. There was also no meat that made it through the flood, so no, that isn't when man started eating animals. Or when animals started eating other animals. Carnivores are programmed to eat meat. It is instinct. Cows instinctively eat grass. Raccoons are programmed to eat my chickens. Who gave them that innate behavior? When, and why?

And riddle me this. There is my best laying duck, and there is the racoon that has been killing my ducks and chickens right behind the log to the right of my duck. And I have a bead on the racoon. One animal or the other is going to die in this scenario. Do I have the right to determine which animal that is?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Carl, ^ that post makes you a contentious spirit. You need a good rib eye...

But while I have you here, did you get the note on why Daniel didn't eat the King's food?

Yes and I refuted you opinion

But while I have you here, why do you -- AS A CHRISTIAN -- Look for support/validation from numbers?
Would you say that to the Christians being persecuted for their beliefs in Muslim countries? If 50 Muslims believe a thing but two Christians don't, ARE THE CHRISTIANS WRONG?

Right and wrong isn't defined by majority rule. You know better

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Noah having no choice but to eat meat since there were no farms or orchards is misleading. There was also no meat that made it through the flood

Sure you don't want to rethink that?
God placed 7 pairs of CLEAN animals on the Ark. Two of the unclean

I probably won't be responding to you from this point on. If you don't see why, it only makes my point.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

And riddle me this. There is my best laying duck, and there is the racoon that has been killing my ducks and chickens right behind the log to the right of my duck. And I have a bead on the racoon. One animal or the other is going to die in this scenario. Do I have the right to determine which animal that is?

You have that situation because of the choices you made. Why is killing so important to you as a Protestant

 

[buttercup]

Or when animals started eating other animals. Carnivores are programmed to eat meat. It is instinct. Cows instinctively eat grass. Raccoons are programmed to eat my chickens. Who gave them that innate behavior? When, and why?

I answered ^ this question in post #207 to you, the second half of it. Did you not read it?

I'll say it again. From a biblical standpoint, the way the world is now is not the way it was in the beginning. This is a fallen world. You know that! Again, when the world was created, God created ALL of creation to be plantbased, that is made clear in Genesis 1:29-30. You have yet to acknowledge that (as far as I've seen) and I have stated that what feels like at least 20 times.

Predation was not part of God's original design!

So to answer your question, the reason why some animals are carnivores is because this is a fallen world, not the way it was in the beginning. Also, a less common and more controversial view is that what happened in Genesis 6 (the fallen angels mixing genetically with humans and messing with animals too) might also be why some animals are very different than how they were originally created.

But the bottom line is, this is a fallen world and not the way it was in the beginning. Genesis 1:29-30 makes it clear that we were ALL created to be vegetarian, in the beginning. Flesh eating didn't OFFICIALLY start until after the flood, and before that it was the NEPHILIM who started it, as I stated two or three times, which you have repeatedly ignored. Flesh eating has a demonic origin.You can read about in the Book of Enoch.

 

[The Irish Ram]

How do you know this?

Do you know the apostles were not meat eaters? John the Baptist? Jesus?
Yes there is evidence God's prophets were vegan. I've posted the information several times before but you folks apply ignore it and throw out another argument. THIS is why I'm weary of these games.

How do I know why Daniel refused the King's food??

Sure you don't want to rethink that?
God placed 7 pairs of CLEAN animals on the Ark. Two of the unclean

I probably won't be responding to you from this point on. If you don't see why, it only makes my point.

Nope. I don't need to rethink it. I know and I am sure they were smart enough to know that they had to take enough provisions with them because there were no farms to glean and no animals to hunt after touchdown. Your post about Noah having to eat meat because there were no farms or orchards is misleading. They could have just eaten the grain and stored figs and dried fruits and veggies they brought with them. 1,600 years before Noah needed to eat meat, Able tended his flock. For what? And what did they make wine skins from? And warm clothing?

And that's ok, I can respond to a misleading understanding of scripture without you trying to defend it...