Veganism and health.

[toobfreak]

This is a fallen world. Flesh eating didn't OFFICIALLY start until after the flood

 

[buttercup]

You have that situation because of the choices you made. Why is killing so important to you as a Protestant

I don't know how to say this without offending most of the Christians here, but I'm NGL... This is what is the most disappointing to me. I can understand NON-Christians defending violence and needless killing, and not believing that God's intent for this world and perfect will is peace and harmony, as it was in the beginning and as it will be again in the end.

But what I don't understand is why CHRISTIANS fight so hard to defend the status quo of exploitation, suffering and needless violence and killing....when it is NOT the way the world is supposed to be, and it's NOT what we should be defending.

Also, Christians are supposed to be set apart and different than the world. Not just like everyone else. We're supposed to live according to a higher standard, and be a light in this dark, messed up world.

You know what? I know for a fact that flesh eating Christians have caused atheists who otherwise would be open to God and the Gospel to reject Christianity BECAUSE of their callousness and disregard for animals. So carnist Christians (without realizing this) are causing nonbelievers and seekers to stumble and reject Christianity .... and that is a very serious thing that I believe God is going to hold Christians accountable for. The scriptures are clear about not causing others to stumble.

I'll probably be attacked for saying this, but it has to be said.... even if it's a hard pill to swallow.


ETA: I just want to add... I'm not claiming and I never have claimed that I'm a good witness... All of us are works in progress and I am definitely a work in progress....probably more than most. But I try. And about what I just said in the paragraphs above, I think in MOST cases it's unintentional, it's a collective blindspot in the Body of Christ. That's why I said something, because I think most Christians don't even realize that that is happening.

 

[The Irish Ram]

You have that situation because of the choices you made. Why is killing so important to you as a Protestant

What does my religious affiliation have to do with any part of this discussion? Are you misleading us into believing that Catholics, for instance, don't occupy deer blinds? Or shoot pheasant or ducks?
Explain the situation I have made regarding the raccoon and the duck without making it personal, Protestant issue. Should the raccoon be allowed to carnivore a duck or can I make the decision as to which lives? Make a common sense decision. Rabid raccoon or prolific duck who supplies churchgoers with free eggs?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Also, Christians are supposed to be set apart and different than the world. Not just like everyone else

If you have the approval of the world you might want to rethink a few things

Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ (Galatians 1:10).

 

[The Irish Ram]

I don't know how to say this without offending most of the Christians here, but I'm NGL... This is what is the most disappointing to me. I can understand NON-Christians defending violence and needless killing, and not believing that God's intent for this world and perfect will is peace and harmony, as it was in the beginning and as it will be again in the end.

But what I don't understand is why CHRISTIANS fight so hard to defend the status quo of exploitation, suffering and needless violence and killing....when it is NOT the way the world is supposed to be, and it's NOT what we should be defending.

Also, Christians are supposed to be set apart and different than the world. Not just like everyone else. We're supposed to live according to a higher standard, and be a light in this dark, messed up world.

You know what? I know for a fact that flesh eating Christians have caused atheists who otherwise would be open to God and the Gospel to reject Christianity BECAUSE of their callousness and disregard for animals. So carnist Christians (without realizing this) are causing nonbelievers and seekers to stumble and reject Christianity .... and that is a very serious thing that I believe God is going to hold Christians accountable for. The scriptures are clear about not causing others to stumble.

I'll probably be attacked for saying this, but it has to be said.... even if it's a hard pill to swallow.


ETA: I just want to add... I'm not claiming and I never have claimed that I'm a good witness... All of us are works in progress and I am definitely a work in progress....probably more than most. But I try. And about what I just said in the paragraphs above, I think in MOST cases it's unintentional, it's a collective blindspot in the Body of Christ. That's why I said something, because I think most Christians don't even realize that that is happening.

buttercup, no one is arguing that. How many times have I referred to the scripture:
Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
And posted that a time is coming when the lion will lay down with the lamb, but for now God has to deal with His children on our level. And no one here is promoting the torturing of animals.
It is the Jesus would never eat fish, and the defiling of the temple and the comments made that are contrary to what the Bible tells us that were addressed by me and others.
I quoted
Mark 7:15: "There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him".
and the shit hit the fan. For no reason other than there were 2 here, whose narrative didn't fit that scripture. Maligning other posters, discussing their character like they weren't here by talking around them to throw shade instead of addressing the posts, needs to stop. That isn't a good look for any of us.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I know for a fact that flesh eating Christians have caused atheists who otherwise would be open to God and the Gospel to reject Christianity BECAUSE of their callousness and disregard for animals. So carnist Christians (without realizing this) are causing nonbelievers and seekers to stumble and reject Christianity ....

I have never heard an atheist say that his disbelief in God stems from meat eaters. I assume most of them are meat eaters also, so they wouldn't consider the act of eating a hamburger egregious enough to bank their eternity on. Sorry, but me eating a steak isn't contributing to the rejection of Christ. An atheist vegan maybe, but that is a pretty shallow reason for nonbelievers and seekers to nix the Lord.

 

[buttercup]

buttercup, no one is arguing that. How many times have I referred to the scripture:
Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

You're still ignoring almost everything I've been saying.

You keep bringing up Genesis 9, putting it ABOVE God's perfect will, and you're not acknowledging that everything in between the beginning and the end is this fallen world, not what God wants. Again, God wants us to choose MERCY. (Luke 6:36, Matthew 5:7, Matthew 9:13, Micah 6:8, Hosea 6:6, etc, etc.)

There are a few different interpretations of Genesis 9, not everyone sees it your way. AT BEST it was a concession to the hard-heartedness and wickedness of mankind, which God describes just a few verses before the one you keep bringing up, in Genesis 8, when He says "the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth."

So at best, God was giving mankind over to what our evil hearts want.... that doesn't mean it's what God wants! His perfect will is made clear in the beginning and in the end.

And posted that a time is coming when the lion will lay down with the lamb, but for now God has to deal with His children on our level.

Ok, I feel like we're finally getting somewhere now. ^ HERE is the specific part where I believe you go wrong. You DO acknowledge that one day the lion will lay down with the lamb, so that's good that you know that. However, where you go wrong is in basically saying "That's the future, that's not the way things are now, so it's fine to take part in flesh eating now."

But what you are not realizing is that we DO have a choice. We don't have to partake in the violence of this fallen world that was NOT God's intent for creation and not God's perfect will.

We can choose! And Jesus clearly commands us to choose MERCY.

Jesus says to pray for (want) God's Kingdom to come and will to be done... On earth as it is in Heaven. We are supposed to have an eternal perspective, as opposed to our minds set on earthly things.

What should sincere Christians who love God aim for.....God's perfect will or God's permissive will? Please answer that question.

We are commanded to do all things in love, be peaceful and gentle, and again, to choose mercy. So it is simply wrong to act as if we don't have a choice, or act as if we SHOULD partake in the bloodbath, when we don't have to.

And no one here is promoting the torturing of animals.

That may be true, but here's the thing.... most here are doing that unknowingly, because the animal industries are absolutely horrible, and animals ARE going through a torturous hell, misery and terror. That's the reality even though most people are either unaware or they don't think about it, because it happens behind closed doors. Again, we have a choice! You don't have to participate in that.

It is the Jesus would never eat fish, and the defiling of the temple and the comments made that are contrary to what the Bible tells us that were addressed by me and others.
I quoted
Mark 7:15: "There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him".
and the shit hit the fan. For no reason other than there were 2 here, whose narrative didn't fit that scripture. Maligning other posters, discussing their character like they weren't here by talking around them to throw shade instead of addressing the posts, needs to stop. That isn't a good look for any of us.

^ I already thoroughly covered that defile passage, at least twice, and you keep ignoring my replies and not addressing anything I said. You are misapplying it. I already stated the reasons why, which I did not see you reply to, you just keep repeating it as if I never said anything.

As for the last thing you said, I acknowledged that it would most likely offend, but it wasn't mere "shade", it is the truth, and that particular truth needed to be spoken. We are repeatedly warned to not cause others to stumble. I know for a fact that many secular vegans and vegetarians who would have been open to God and Christianity have been turned off by the actions of callous Christians who THEY wrongly believe represent God. That is a serious thing that I think many Christians don't even realize they're doing.... that's why the truth needs to be spoken.

PS: I just wanted to acknowledge that I haven't replied to some of your posts too, but it's not because I don't want to reply, it has just been a busy day and this thread has been fast-moving, and when lots of posts are coming at me, I can't always answer every single one. I will try to get back to one or two that I missed when I have more time, maybe after dinner tonight or another time.

 

[buttercup]

I have never heard an atheist say that his disbelief in God stems from meat eaters. I assume most of them are meat eaters also, so they wouldn't consider the act of eating a hamburger egregious enough to bank their eternity on. Sorry, but me eating a steak isn't contributing to the rejection of Christ. An atheist vegan maybe, but that is a pretty shallow reason for nonbelievers and seekers to nix the Lord.

It's not a shallow reason for the atheists, agnostics or seekers who have a passion and heart for the plight of animals. If they think our God is callous, merciless, cruel, or worse... evil.... because they see believers defending the horror show, then I can understand why they would be turned off to Christianity, or simply continue to believe that God doesn't exist. But what they don't know is that God is NOT any of those things. It's that this is a fallen world and God DOES allow bad things to happen. But that doesn't mean it's what God wants. God gave us free will, and people don't always use that free will in the best way.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Ok, I feel like we're finally getting somewhere now. ^ HERE is the specific part where I believe you go wrong. You DO acknowledge that one day the lion will lay down with the lamb, so that's good that you know that

Oh the arrogance. Yes, teacher, I know that scripture. I also know when we will experience that phenomenon.
And I know that until then we have been given everything to eat. And as Paul pointed out, food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
Now let me introduce you to Romans 14:3
The one who eats everything must not belittle the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted him. Even if you and Carl don't...

 

[The Irish Ram]

It's not a shallow reason for the atheists, agnostics or seekers who have a passion and heart for the plight of animal.

That is misleading. Having a heart for animals, is one thing, and forsaking God because people eat meat is something completely different. Don't tell them how God and Abraham solidified their covenants then, or let the seekers read a Bible. If they think eating meat is a dealbreaker, then they'll are in for a real eye-opener once they are introduced to the God of the Bible.
Lots of people I know love animals and volunteer their time at shelters and vet hospitals, and stop at Burger King on the way home.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

You are misapplying it. I already stated the reasons why, which I did not see you reply to, you just keep repeating it as if I never said anything

You just keep repeating it as if I never said anything

THIS is why I'm done responding. She's gotten her answer countless times but she never even addressed the answer she's gotten. She stumbles over the truth, picks herself up and carries on as if you never responded. I see that as pure dishonesty.

 

[buttercup]

Oh the arrogance. Yes, teacher, I know that scripture. I also know when we will experience that phenomenon.
And I know that until then we have been given everything to eat. And as Paul pointed out, food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
Now let me introduce you to Romans 14:3
The one who eats everything must not belittle the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted him. Even if you and Carl don't...

You cut off 98% of my post and you cut it off immediately before the important part. Again, you keep ignoring most of what I post, even after I replied to your post in a point by point way. When I said it's good that you know that, you took that in the wrong way. Not everyone interprets those prophetic passages in the same way, and since earlier you seemed to have a very different view of the Garden of Eden and the pre-flood world, and since you hadn't acknowledged the point about the future restoration of Eden (even though I had repeated it numerous times) I was just glad that you acknowledged the Peaceable Kingdom. There was no need to take offense like that.

That Romans passage has nothing to do with veganism or ethical vegetarianism, it has to do with meat that may have been sacrificed to false gods, we can know that from similar scriptures from Paul in other books. So it was actually a discussion about idolatry. Paul trying to bring unity to two groups with different levels of sensitivity to the possibility of partaking in sacrifices to pagan gods.

The people who try to use that verse to justify modern day carnism always fail to read what Paul says in verse 15: "If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died." So he is definitely not saying "eat whatever you want even if it causes distress to others" he is saying the exact opposite. He clearly said if what you are eating is causing distress to others, then don't do it! So that should not be used as a justification for the modern day horror show of the animal industries. That is a misuse of that verse.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

You cut off 98% of my post and you cut it off immediately before the important part. Again, you keep ignoring most of what I post, even after I replied to your post in a point by point way. When I said it's good that you know that, you took that in the wrong way. Not everyone interprets those prophetic passages in the same way, and since earlier you seemed to have a very different view of the Garden of Eden and the pre-flood world, and since you hadn't acknowledged the point about the future restoration of Eden (even though I had repeated it numerous times) I was just glad that you acknowledged the Peaceable Kingdom. There was no need to take offense like that.

That Romans passage has nothing to do with veganism or ethical vegetarianism, it has to do with meat that may have been sacrificed to false gods, we can know that from similar scriptures from Paul in other books. So it was actually a discussion about idolatry. Paul trying to bring unity to two groups with different levels of sensitivity to the possibility of partaking in sacrifices to pagan gods.

The people who try to use that verse to justify modern day carnism always fail to read what Paul says in verse 15: "If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died." So he is definitely not saying "eat whatever you want even if it causes distress to others" he is saying the exact opposite. He clearly said if what you are eating is causing distress to others, then don't do it! So that should not be used as a justification for the modern day horror show of the animal industries. That is a misuse of that verse.

Everybody should be forced to visit a slaughter house and see what that creature goes through for that hamburger they're eating. They should have to look that animal in the eye (they often have TEARS) before they are murdered because of your LUST and uncontrollable appetite. Many are so callous and soul damaged that they wouldn't care, but many would. The problem, like you said, people rarely see the heartbreak and the terror we subject them to. They KNOW they're about to DIE. And they HOPE till the last minute that it might not happen. But it does and GOD HEARD THEIR CRIES AND THEIR DEATHS WILL BE AVENGED

Christians especially have a responsibility to get this right

 

[buttercup]

That is misleading. Having a heart for animals, is one thing, and forsaking God because people eat meat is something completely different. Don't tell them how God and Abraham solidified their covenants then, or let the seekers read a Bible. If they think eating meat is a dealbreaker, then they'll are in for a real eye-opener once they are introduced to the God of the Bible.

No, I never said that they think eating meat is a deal breaker, I specifically said that they are being misled to believe that God is merciless, callous, cruel and even evil BECAUSE of the actions and attitude of callous Christians who turn a blind eye to everything and fight in defense of it.

Lots of people I know love animals and volunteer their time at shelters and vet hospitals, and stop at Burger King on the way home.

^ That's a classic example of cognitive dissonance among animal eaters who claim to love animals. They love dogs and cats, but pay someone to treat other animals in the worst ways, causing daily abuse, suffering and brutal killing to animals that are no different than a dog or cat in all the ways that matter.

It's an arbitrary distinction, due to years of brainwashing of this world. Pigs are actually SMARTER than dogs, and just as social, but they are one of the worst treated animals. They're literally put into gas chambers in many places, and you can hear their screams of horror from outside the slaughterhouse. So if you don't see anything wrong with the "I love animals but I eat them" mindset, then I don't think you have thought this through. You can't love someone and then stab in the throat.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

“As long as Man continues to be the ruthless destroyer of lower living beings, he will never know health or peace. For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love.” (Pythagoras)

“Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.” (Albert Einstein)

“Be on guard, so that your hearts do not become heavy with the eating of flesh and with the intoxication of wine and with the anxiety of the world, and that day come upon you suddenly; for as a snare it will come upon all who dwell upon the surface of the earth.” (Jesus, Luke 21:34, Evangelion Da-Mepharreshe — Old Syriac-Aramaic Manuscript of the New Testament Gospels)

“Go and find out what is meant by the scripture that says: ‘It is kindness that I want, not animal sacrifices.’” (Jesus, Gospel of Matthew 9:13, Good News translation)

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Be on guard, so that your hearts do not become heavy with the eating of flesh and with the intoxication of wine

Notice JESUS compares eating flesh with DRUNKENNESS. He DOESNT say gluttony, He says EATING FLESH is comparable to DRUNKENNESS

 

[buttercup]

Everybody should be forced to visit a slaughter house and see what that creature goes through for that hamburger they're eating. They should have to look that animal in the eye (they often have TEARS) before they are murdered because of your LUST and uncontrollable appetite. Many are so callous and soul damaged that they wouldn't care, but many would. The problem, like you said, people rarely see the heartbreak and the terror we subject them to. They KNOW they're about to DIE. And they HOPE till the last minute that it might not happen. But it does and GOD HEARD THEIR CRIES AND THEIR DEATHS WILL BE AVENGED

Christians especially have a responsibility to get this right

Yeah. There's a reason why parents will take kids to pick apples but not to a slaughterhouse to watch the bloodbath that literally looks like a horror movie.

I know there are many hunters who have no problem with killing...BUT I think there are tons of regular people who actually could never do the slaughter themselves. So even though it would never happen... I agree that people who want to eat dead bodies should have to look the animal in the eye and do it themselves if they want to partake in it. I think there would be a HELL of a lot less meat eaters if that was required.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Plant based diet of those who learned at the feet of Jesus

“James, the brother of the Lord, lived on seeds and plants and touched neither meat nor wine.” The Apostle Thomas: “He continually fasts and prays, and abstaining from the eating of flesh…” “…The Apostle Matthew partook of seeds, and nuts, hard-shelled fruits, and vegetables, without flesh.” (these apostolic veg passages with attribution of sources is to be found further below in the section titled, The Vegetarian Apostles, Leadership of the Original Jesus Movement)

Peter: “Then Peter answered: ‘To do anything for pleasure, not for the sake of necessity, is to sin and therefore I earnestly entreat you to abstain from all animal food, in the hope that by this you may be able to retain your self-restraint, and not to be overpowered by the allurements of pleasure. For in the beginning, the eating of flesh was unknown until after the flood, when, against their will, men were compelled to use the flesh of animals, because all things that were planted had been destroyed by the waters… But let no one think that by abstinence from things offered to idols he will fulfill the law. For what commands us to keep ourselves from idolatry also teaches us that we should eat only of the fruits of trees and seeds and plants, and abstain from all animal food, and from all injury of animals; and with regard to our food, that it should be purely vegetable.’” (Why God Has Forbidden Certain Foods, Book of the Clementine Homilies)

Peter said, “I live on olives and bread, to which I rarely only add vegetables…” “The unnatural eating of flesh meats is as polluting as the heathen worship of devils…” (Peter, Clementine Homilies)

 

[toobfreak]

Yeah. There's a reason why parents will take kids to pick apples but not to a slaughterhouse to watch the bloodbath that literally looks like a horror movie.

Well BC, I hate to tell you this because I think you already know it, and no one can ready argue against what you are saying, but the plain truth of the situation is that with 8 billion people on the planet, meat is an industry and animals are the product.

Businessmen run these companies not humanitarians, and they look at the livestock no different than if it were a TV. And who knows if there would or even could be a meat industry without it being that way.

I have hope that it will improve with time.

And while that truth might not excuse it or justify it, it is probably the most simple, direct statement of fact.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I know there are many hunters who have no problem with killing

While I don't agree with hunting either, at least the victim of their "sport" gets to live out its life before being unexpectedly gunned down like in a drive-by shooting in da hood. At least the victim had its life until that point.