USMB POLL: Repeal the 16th Amendment (Income Tax)

[SteadyMercury]

The Sixteenth Amendment ought to be repealed although the same was not actually ratified.

Heh it isn't an income tax thread until someone carts out this chestnut.

The courts have consistently ruled that arguments against the validity of the 16th amendment are without merit, so you can say this a million times (and you probably have) but here in reality-land it just isn't true.

 

[SteadyMercury]

fund their Big Government Tyranny (internally and externally) by garnishing our wages.

Come on dude, I've seen your postings. No way you have wage that attracts much garnishing.

 

[NYcarbineer]

LOL an amendment to the Constitution causes treason against the Constitution.

Are there NO RWnuts on this board who know how the Constitution works?

 

[Skylar]

As a government supremacist/socialist you will always claim that the government version is the correct one.

More accurately, I recognize the authority to make such decisions. The ruling of the Secretary of State is authoritative. The ruling of the USSC is authoritative.

Bill Benson isn't. Thus, his opinions carry no legal weight. And the findings of the Secretary of State and USSC carry plenty. As the passage of the 16th amendment is a legal question, the issue is resolved.

The Documents submitted by Mr. Benson were CERTIFIED by each of the 50 states. So I have no idea what you mean by "far more credible" - probably just a pretext to side with the powers that be.

Um, why would Mr. Benson have documents certified from States....that didn't exist when the 16th amendment was ratified? And its not the States that are insisting the 16th amendment wasn't ratified. It is Mr. Benson.

Is Mr. Benson an American?

Is the Constitution ours?

Does he have a right to access Article III Courts to have his grievances redressed?

The constitution is ours. Not his alone. And the authority to adjudicate issues of constitutional significance isn't delegated to Bill Benson. But the federal judiciary. Through precedent, the authority to determine when ratification is successful is delegated to the secretary of State. Not Bill Benson. Again, both the Secretary of State at the time of its ratification and the USSC since have affirmed the ratification of the 16th amendment.

As the issue of the ratification of the 16th amendment is a legal question, the issue is resolved. That Bill Benson disagrees is legally irrelevant and Benson isn't a legal authority nor delegated the power to adjudicate anything under the constitution.

More than likely the reason the States have not objected is because the War of Northern Aggression and the so-called seventeenth Amendment have weakened them.

That's possible. Its also possible that you're talking out of your ass. What we both know for sure is that no state has ever challenged the ratification of the 16th amendment.

Not one. Not ever. Bill Benson does....but not enough to use his argument in his own defense. Only enough to charge you $19.95 plus shipping and handling for his book. What's the use of a legal argument that even its author recognizes is uncompelling in court?

Other Patriotic Americans have used Mr. Benson's documents to no avail. Article III Courts have been abolished - the impostors sitting on the federal bench have sworn to support and defend the welfare/warfare state. They claim that whether or not the sixteenth amendment was adopted is a "political question" .They have threatened to punish any Patriot who raises the argument. So Mr Benson had no choice since the impostors have taken upon themselves to limit defenses.

You claim that the judiciary is a fraud. And I should care why what you believe? Again, you assume that what you believe is legally authoritative. But it isn't. You assume that the courts are bound to whatever interpretation you imagine. But they're not. Your personal interpretation of the constitution does not define our law, our amendments, or any legal definition.

 

[Billy000]

Every time I find a new angle in which imperial cultural marxists have wrought destruction upon this nation, I realize that it's the 16th Amendment that gives them the funding to carry out their treason against the Constitution of the United States. From the welfare state (democrats) to the imperialists (republicans), it seems that both of them fund their Big Government Tyranny (internally and externally) by garnishing our wages.

We pay for the destruction of our own liberties at home and the desolation of foreign nations abroad.

The 16th Amendment is what created the IRS and the income tax.

Amendment XVI
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Income tax pays the government's bills. Do you want sky rocketing debt and an unstable system?

 

[hipeter924]

No it shouldn't be repealed. If you get rid of income taxes, new taxes in other areas would have to be implemented to pay the difference. Better to have a discussion on voluntary taxation, than get rid of income tax.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Income tax pays the government's bills. Do you want sky rocketing debt and an unstable system?

Woah, you mean the debt isn't skyrocketing already?

You're telling me the bankster bailouts were the result of a currently stable economy? WOAH!

 

[hipeter924]

Ww

Every time I find a new angle in which imperial cultural marxists have wrought destruction upon this nation, I realize that it's the 16th Amendment that gives them the funding to carry out their treason against the Constitution of the United States. From the welfare state (democrats) to the imperialists (republicans), it seems that both of them fund their Big Government Tyranny (internally and externally) by garnishing our wages.

We pay for the destruction of our own liberties at home and the desolation of foreign nations abroad.

The 16th Amendment is what created the IRS and the income tax.

Amendment XVI
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Income tax pays the government's bills. Do you want sky rocketing debt and an unstable system?

Well, if you got rid of income tax... the US would have to cut the military budget by more than half, defund social security, and massively curtail staff numbers and pay.

 

[SwimExpert]

The Income Tax is wrong and the IRS as we know it, needs to go. There are better ways to tax and collect taxes. Time to get rid of the IRS. It's a corrupt cancerous bureaucracy at this point.

What makes it "wrong," other than the fact that it's tax and nobody likes having to pay taxes?

 

[Billy000]

Income tax pays the government's bills. Do you want sky rocketing debt and an unstable system?

Woah, you mean the debt isn't skyrocketing already?

You're telling me the bankster bailouts were the result of a currently stable economy? WOAH!

Um yes it's already high and it will skyrocket further if you abolish the 16th.

 

[johnwk]

“SECTION 1. The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money

NOTE: these words would return us to our founding father’s ORIGINAL TAX PLAN as they intended it to operate! And, they would remove the existing chains of taxation which now oppresses America‘s free enterprise system and robs the bread which working people have earned when selling their labor!

There has never been a prohibition on income tax. It was merely limited by the apportionment clause. The 16th ammendment created no new taxation authority. It simply lifted restrictions on how funds collected via income tax would be spent.

And how does you comment apply to what I posted?


JWK




If we can make 51 percent of America’s population dependent upon an Obama, welfare, food stamp, section 8 housing, college loan check, and now free Obamacare along with FREE BACON, we can blackmail them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ____ Our Washington Establishment’s Free Cheese Democracy, designed to establish a federal plantation which redistributes wealth that wage earners, business and investors have worked to create.

Easy: the founders never intended income taxes to be forbidden. As they never have been.

You have not answered my question. How does your comment apply to what I posted?


JWK

I've answered twice, both times relevantly. You've insisted that your 'original tax plan' that forbids income tax was what the founders intended.

You're wrong. Income tax has always been constitutional. It has never been forbidden. The 16th amendment didn't create taxation authority. It removed the apportionment clause for income taxes.

So now you invent something I never said and then respond to your own invention.


You still have not answered my question. How does your comment apply to what I posted?


JWK





"The Constitution is the act of the people, speaking in their original character, and defining the permanent conditions of the social alliance; and there can be no doubt on the point with us, that every act of the legislative power contrary to the true intent and meaning of the Constitution, is absolutely null and void. ___ Chancellor James Kent, in his Commentaries on American Law (1858)

 

[Skylar]

So now you invent something I never said and then respond to your own invention.

So you never said this?

“SECTION 1. The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money

NOTE: these words would return us to our founding father’s ORIGINAL TAX PLAN as they intended it to operate! And, they would remove the existing chains of taxation which now oppresses America‘s free enterprise system and robs the bread which working people have earned when selling their labor!

johnwk
Post 25
USMB POLL Repeal the 16th Amendment Income Tax Page 3 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Because I can go to page 3 of this thread and look right at your post with those exact words as a part of it. So deny making the above statement, and I'll hang you with your denial. Or admit to the statement above, and recognize that you're simply wrong. That income tax has always been constitutional. And that the founders never 'intended' it to be forbidden.

You still have not answered my question. How does your comment apply to what I posted?

Deny posting the quote I offered above. Then we'll talk.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

johnwk just retire your attempt to argue with Skylar. Skylar is a liberal soldier whose probably being paid. Liberals Soldiers are like monkeys, they just keep throwing smelly shit at the wall until you you can't bear the smell anymore.

Even if Skylar were to miraculously concede the point to you (or abandon the thread), he would simply start posting the exact same argument elsewhere on USMB tomorrow.

 

[Skylar]

johnwk just retire your attempt to argue with Skylar. Skylar is a liberal soldier whose probably being paid. Liberals Soldiers are like monkeys, they just keep throwing smelly shit at the wall until you you can't bear the smell anymore.

Even if Skylar were to miraculously concede the point to you (or abandon the thread), he would simply start posting the exact same argument elsewhere on USMB tomorrow.

Shrugs....no one is willing to so much as disagree with me on any point I've made. The reason is obvious: I'm right. All you can do is make up stories about me personally. But you can't argue around my evidence, my logic, or my reasoning. Remember that.

The constitution in no way forbids income taxes. It simply applies the apportionment clause to them. The 16th amendment doesn't create any new taxation authority. It merely removes the apportionment clause form income taxes.

Facts no one disputes. Nor can you....we both know I'm right.

 

[rightwinger]

Every time I find a new angle in which imperial cultural marxists have wrought destruction upon this nation, I realize that it's the 16th Amendment that gives them the funding to carry out their treason against the Constitution of the United States. From the welfare state (democrats) to the imperialists (republicans), it seems that both of them fund their Big Government Tyranny (internally and externally) by garnishing our wages.

We pay for the destruction of our own liberties at home and the desolation of foreign nations abroad.

The 16th Amendment is what created the IRS and the income tax.

Amendment XVI
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Income tax pays the government's bills. Do you want sky rocketing debt and an unstable system?

Move to Kansas

 

[DriftingSand]

Every time I find a new angle in which imperial cultural marxists have wrought destruction upon this nation, I realize that it's the 16th Amendment that gives them the funding to carry out their treason against the Constitution of the United States. From the welfare state (democrats) to the imperialists (republicans), it seems that both of them fund their Big Government Tyranny (internally and externally) by garnishing our wages.

We pay for the destruction of our own liberties at home and the desolation of foreign nations abroad.

The 16th Amendment is what created the IRS and the income tax.

Amendment XVI
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

A flat tax is a much better idea than an income tax. I'm not a huge fan of taxes in general but at least a flat tax would assure that EVERYONE (including freeloaders, deadbeats, beggars, and thieves) contributes to the government coffers anytime and every time someone buys something.

 

[zeke]

johnwk just retire your attempt to argue with Skylar. Skylar is a liberal soldier whose probably being paid. Liberals Soldiers are like monkeys, they just keep throwing smelly shit at the wall until you you can't bear the smell anymore.

skylar kicked both of your asses on this thread. And all you can do is whine about it. Funny shit.

Nice job skylar.

 

[zeke]

A flat tax is a much better idea than an income tax. I'm not a huge fan of taxes in general but at least a flat tax would assure that EVERYONE (including freeloaders, deadbeats, beggars, and thieves) contributes to the government coffers anytime and every time someone buys something.

So lets pretend that I am ultra rich. And my income is mostly capital gains. And I pay around 15% Federal income taxes.

And you are proposing an increase in the amount of taxes I pay? Why would I, an ultra rich person, support that?
Or does your idea exclude ultra rich people making their money from capital gains?

And a "flat tax" and a "consumption tax" are not one and the same. Which one do you propose?

 

[DriftingSand]

A flat tax is a much better idea than an income tax. I'm not a huge fan of taxes in general but at least a flat tax would assure that EVERYONE (including freeloaders, deadbeats, beggars, and thieves) contributes to the government coffers anytime and every time someone buys something.

So lets pretend that I am ultra rich. And my income is mostly capital gains. And I pay around 15% Federal income taxes.

And you are proposing an increase in the amount of taxes I pay? Why would I, an ultra rich person, support that?
Or does your idea exclude ultra rich people making their money from capital gains?

And a "flat tax" and a "consumption tax" are not one and the same. Which one do you propose?

I'm proposing a flat tax on goods purchased. Since rich people buy more things and bigger, better things then they would be paying more taxes, overall, than poor people. It would be a flat tax or fair tax based on consumption. Businesses buy lots of products to keep themselves running so businesses would pay taxes based on their consumption of goods. Loopholes and tax write-offs would be removed so that all taxes would be based on all goods purchased and nobody would get a free ride.

 

[johnwk]

So now you invent something I never said and then respond to your own invention.

So you never said this?

“SECTION 1. The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money

NOTE: these words would return us to our founding father’s ORIGINAL TAX PLAN as they intended it to operate! And, they would remove the existing chains of taxation which now oppresses America‘s free enterprise system and robs the bread which working people have earned when selling their labor!

johnwk
Post 25
USMB POLL Repeal the 16th Amendment Income Tax Page 3 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Because I can go to page 3 of this thread and look right at your post with those exact words as a part of it. So deny making the above statement, and I'll hang you with your denial. Or admit to the statement above, and recognize that you're simply wrong. That income tax has always been constitutional. And that the founders never 'intended' it to be forbidden.

You still have not answered my question. How does your comment apply to what I posted?

Deny posting the quote I offered above. Then we'll talk.

I have not denied what I have posted. I take full credit for what I posted and its accuracy.


Now, how does what I posted apply to your response that: “There has never been a prohibition on income tax. It was merely limited by the apportionment clause. The 16th ammendment created no new taxation authority. It simply lifted restrictions on how funds collected via income tax would be spent.”


And more recently you charged: ”You're wrong. Income tax has always been constitutional. It has never been forbidden. The 16th amendment didn't create taxation authority. It removed the apportionment clause for income taxes.”


What have I posted which you claim is in error? And explain the error you claim.


JWK