US Number #1 ....

[veritas]

Most of the major innovation is BECAUSE of government, not in spite of it.......and we should be #1......we are the oldest government on the planet by far, we have a major head start on everybody because of it. Comparing us to France or Germany is hardly fair, we have more land, more natural resources, more people and we've been at it a lot longer.

 

[antagon]

i dont think you'll find the US in the top 5 markets in the world with respect to freedom. you probably wont find any of those top 5 near the top of the GDP scale either.

The criteria for the #1 Ranking in innovation....did you read them in the article or see the quote from the article that I posted?

Basically the USA was ranked #1 in innovation because it is the largest free capitalist market on the earth.

OK, which nations would you rank in the top 5 markets in the world with respect to freedom? Don't even pay attention to the GNP. Certainly nothing in Europe, S. America, or Africa.....That narrows it down to Asia....India? No...too much Hindu vs Muslim nuclear warheads........China? Not exactly "Free Market." Japan Inc.? Maybe.

note the difference between largest free and free-est large.

ill guess the UK, swiss, singapore, uh... HK..... definately not japan... australia? the US is up there, but you cant nationalize banks every once and a while and taut that youre the most free market. our monex policies are iffy, too, sometimes.

again freedom is not the most important component in an economy, perhaps the most basic, tho.

how would you rank them?

USA,...

 

[antagon]

Most of the major innovation is BECAUSE of government, not in spite of it.......and we should be #1......we are the oldest government on the planet by far, we have a major head start on everybody because of it. Comparing us to France or Germany is hardly fair, we have more land, more natural resources, more people and we've been at it a lot longer.

'..in cooperation with..' is more like it.

because? not. you dont give any credit to private innovation? thats loco.

 

[veritas]

Most of the major public innovations have arisen out of leftovers from military innovations. War stuff that is obsolete, then released to the public in the form of various patents.

I'd be a bajillionaire if the innovations contributed by my grandfather were not owned by the government by virtue of it being wartime.

Perot made his fortune off a government patent.

 

[antagon]

you said public innovations? well i guess all of those are from the government, but there's substantially more private research than millitary and public research. even public research is commonly in partnership with private companies and universities.

ww2 and the new deal were a long time ago. among trends that have changed since then are the source of revenue, infrastructure and innovation from public to private. most of the government research is under contract, rather than in-house.

 

[veritas]

The government still funds most innovation. It does it through the public school/university system.

 

[antagon]

The government still funds most innovation. It does it through the public school/university system.

dunno, man. govt might be into research a third at best in most industries. the government mostly covers stuff without an obvious bottom line to it. space exploration hasnt interested many private firms, but biomeds and military are dominated by privately funded innovation... for the same observation you made about gramps.. they want the money and the intellectual property.

im not one to pose the troll 'in spite of' arguement, but id be impressed if you could source support for the government funding most 50%+ innovation (research).

 

[rdean]

Oh those "liberal elite" with their research and study and data. Who needs 'em?

 

[veritas]

Read this: William & Mary - Science and Technology Funding Sources A-to-Z

Out of the non blatantly governmental entities which anyone would recognize, there are the "foundations" which exist mainly to avoid taxes......so it ends up being the same thing, or charitable organizations which feed from foundations and regular taxpayers.

 

[antagon]

Read this: William & Mary - Science and Technology Funding Sources A-to-Z

Out of the non blatantly governmental entities which anyone would recognize, there are the "foundations" which exist mainly to avoid taxes......so it ends up being the same thing, or charitable organizations which feed from foundations and regular taxpayers.

word. i feel you on the deductibility thing. W&M is public, tho. considerably more public funding for research goes through the public unis as you'd pointed out.

The US government spends more than other countries on military R&D, although the proportion has fallen from around 30% in the 1980s to under 20%[1]. Government funding for medical research amounts to approximately 36% in the U.S. The government funding proportion in certain industries is higher, and it dominates research in social science and humanities.

from

wiki article on research funding

i wish i could find a nifty pie chart, but im not one for research myself.

 

[Navy1960]

No offense here, but it seems to me that funding R&D for such things as aviation, medical research, and other things is money well spent and as a matter of fact, promoting the general welfare of the nation in a very big way and is wholly consistant with good policy based on the many results from it. I'm not one for downplaying the US lead in Innovation and other areas for whatever the reason, looking at it from a pure statistics stand point, the US represents a small percentage of the worlds population , but yet, we lead the world in many catagories. One other thing of note here, and this is a personal view, to express that our Govt. has been around longer than perhaps some is a testament to this nation not so much a thing to be used as a disadvantage for others. To my knowledge though, the UK has been around just a little longer than we have. A few other things that come to mind as well, even though some of these Nations were rebuilt from the ashes of WW2 with the Marshall plan the innovations that came from them helped our nation innovate even further, with such thihngs as the jet engine from the UK and rocket technology from Germany.

Here is a paper from Pitt. I thought was a a good read on the subject in case anyone is interested.
http://aei.pitt.edu/2231/01/002220_1.PDF

 

[Old Rocks]

Innovation is worthless unless it benefits we the people.
It is innovative to outsource jobs.

My innovation is not your property... a company's innovation is not the property of the populous

But nice try

Not nice try.

You stupid attitude is exactly why the American citizens living standard is declining. A 13% depreciation of worth of the average citizens wealth in the last decade.

We, the taxpayer, provide infrastructure that all businesses depend on. But you claim those businesses owe us nothing.

OK. Then why don't we just tax those businesses at the same rate as I am taxed. Both federally and in the state.

That is no dumber than stating that these businesses owe the nation nothing.

 

[DiamondDave]

Innovation is worthless unless it benefits we the people.
It is innovative to outsource jobs.

My innovation is not your property... a company's innovation is not the property of the populous

But nice try

Not nice try.

You stupid attitude is exactly why the American citizens living standard is declining. A 13% depreciation of worth of the average citizens wealth in the last decade.

We, the taxpayer, provide infrastructure that all businesses depend on. But you claim those businesses owe us nothing.

OK. Then why don't we just tax those businesses at the same rate as I am taxed. Both federally and in the state.

That is no dumber than stating that these businesses owe the nation nothing.

What gives you the rights to my innovation, my efforts, my productivity, my advances?

No, fucktard... you do not get to use some totalitarian usurpation of freedom to take of my accomplishments. My efforts do not belong to all American citizens, nor to the state taht you seem to want to give so much power to.

Nobody owes you SHIT except for you.

Lazy socialist pig

 

[Old Rocks]

No offense here, but it seems to me that funding R&D for such things as aviation, medical research, and other things is money well spent and as a matter of fact, promoting the general welfare of the nation in a very big way and is wholly consistant with good policy based on the many results from it. I'm not one for downplaying the US lead in Innovation and other areas for whatever the reason, looking at it from a pure statistics stand point, the US represents a small percentage of the worlds population , but yet, we lead the world in many catagories. One other thing of note here, and this is a personal view, to express that our Govt. has been around longer than perhaps some is a testament to this nation not so much a thing to be used as a disadvantage for others. To my knowledge though, the UK has been around just a little longer than we have. A few other things that come to mind as well, even though some of these Nations were rebuilt from the ashes of WW2 with the Marshall plan the innovations that came from them helped our nation innovate even further, with such thihngs as the jet engine from the UK and rocket technology from Germany.

Here is a paper from Pitt. I thought was a a good read on the subject in case anyone is interested.
http://aei.pitt.edu/2231/01/002220_1.PDF

A cowboy of uncommon wit and intelligence from the high desert of Eastern Oregon stated it best.

"Research is always a bargain, even when it costs too much".

There was a government program that ran over budget by a factor of ten. Took much longer than was planned. Failed in it's primary goal.

All it accomplished was research and exploration.

It was originally called "The Corps of Discovery". We know it today as the "Lewis and Clark Expedition". That expedition was one of the key elements of the development of our nation as a continental nation.

The research that is sponsored and done by many government agencies have been the key to this nation staying in the forefront of development. From funding a little known scientist to study the properties of 'semi-conductors' in 1948, to the development of computers and associated systems in our space program, research has been the life blood of new developments.

Unfortunately, our businesses have abandoned this approach, for the most part. We get good consumer products mostly from other nations. In the 70s and 80s, the American auto companies practiced planned obselescence. And the Japanese and European auto makers gave us high reving and fast cars that lasted three times as long as the American dinosaurs. Now we see even a Chinese company planing to import a very advanced plugin hybrid, while all we have from the first company to put out a practical electric car, the EV1, is commericials.

From what I have seen of the actions of American businesses in the last decade, the government research agencies have acted far more responsibly than our businesses. Not only that, many of these agencies have done so with much reduced budgets.

That has to be changed. Defunding research agencies is eating the seed corn.

 

[veritas]

To my knowledge though, the UK has been around just a little longer than we have.

er.........no........King George ring a bell? We didn't revolt against Parliament. The UK had a Parliament sort of at the time, but it took them to after our civil war before they were starting to recognize the Commons. So it evolved very slowly into more of a democracy from a monarchy with a ruling class. It is true that early on, we restricted voting to land owners, but this was not based on lineage.

 

[Navy1960]

I think there is room for both actually both personal and R&D that tax payers fund that actually trickles down to the personal level to spawn all sorts of innovation on the personal level. Of course the sweat and blood of personal innovation should go to benefit the person that spawned that innovation and added benefits would be to those that use it or the many uses it spawns. Let me give you just a small example, funding by DARPA helped spawn the internet, however all the numerous companies that have benefited from that both here and worldwide reap the benedits of their innovations as well. Just take a look at Mark Cuban the owner of the Dallas Mavericks who earned his fortune on that very same internet and now is enjoying the benefits of that fortune. Further, look at Google, and the men that started that, and all the numerous companies and individuals that have benefited from that, It's one of the main reasons I say that public and private R&D funding can work well together. The impression that many Americans have gottten about American innovation, products, etc. is that we cannot compete, for various reasons, and to me some of that is self defeating in that it fosters a belief that our nation can't achieve great things, and I like to believe we are just as capable as previous generations if not more so of doing just that if given the chance.

 

[Navy1960]

To my knowledge though, the UK has been around just a little longer than we have.

er.........no........King George ring a bell? We didn't revolt against Parliament. The UK had a Parliament sort of at the time, but it took them to after our civil war before they were starting to recognize the Commons. So it evolved very slowly into more of a democracy from a monarchy with a ruling class. It is true that early on, we restricted voting to land owners, but this was not based on lineage.

This debate is an interesting one and has been going on for sometime, and it can be said that our country is the worlds oldest continuous form of democracy but even that is debatable, because or voting issues, etc. form of Govt. Icelands Parliament has been in use since 930. The UK in 1921 made the monarchy into more a figurehead position but yet it did exist prior to that time. Interesting debate though, I have even seen where the Isle of Man lays claim to the title, but I understand the overall point, that nations like France, Germany, Japan, China, etc, that many see as old established nations are in fact for the most part rebuilt from the ashes of WW2.

 

[veritas]

I know two Icelanders. Iceland has very few people. Recently, owing to having been invested heavily [unknowingly] into CDOs and CDS's, their entire economy collapsed.

 

[Meister]

One of the reasons I started this post was simply to show that this nation still has much to offer to world in many areas and we lead the world in many areas as well. What I have been seeing lately as the willingness to point out how badly this nation does in some areas and while true perhaps, it's also worth mentioning that this nation also does well in other areas.

Navy, by introducing positive facts such as these you remove the fear mongering factors that the partisan posters on both sides use in their incessant game of juvenile one-ups-man-ship.

I rarely hear Democrats fear mongering about science. Actually, I can't remember ever hearing it.

 

[Samson]

Most of the major innovation is BECAUSE of government, not in spite of it.......and we should be #1......we are the oldest government on the planet by far, we have a major head start on everybody because of it. Comparing us to France or Germany is hardly fair, we have more land, more natural resources, more people and we've been at it a lot longer.

The thread is about the USA #1 Innovation. How else did you think the #1 was arrived at, if not by comparison with other nations? Perhaps if it isn't "fair" to be #1 Innovator, it also shouldn't be "fair" to compare the USA's crime statistics, education system, productivity, etc., with any other nation?

And WTF do you mean "we've been at it longer" than Germany or France?