US government planning dramatic Colorado River water cuts due to drought, overuse

[Concerned American]

That is impossible to prove. What is certain is that the depletion of the Colorado River Reservoirs would be significantly less than what we see today. This was the inevitable outcome of refusal to conserve coupled with the massive population and industrial growth of California.

The only water that CA should get from the Colorado is to support ag in Coachella, Indio, Calexico area

 

[Mushroom]

That is impossible to prove. What is certain is that the depletion of the Colorado River Reservoirs would be significantly less than what we see today. This was the inevitable outcome of refusal to conserve coupled with the massive population and industrial growth of California.

OK, so the populations ballooned by over 100% while rainfall has not changed. And you honestly mean to tell me that overpopulation is not the problem?

 

[excalibur]

Was fake news, and is still fake news.

Care to discuss the chart from your own reference that shows no major change in rainfall in over 2,000 years?

LOL

The area of the Colorado River Basin is in drought, You can lie all you want about that fact, but it is in drought.

 

[EdwinAMartin]

I'd love to see the feds mandate that SoCal remove lawns or substantially increase the costs of water for those residents. AZ did it. During the 60s, everyone in Phoenix had a green yard and there were lots of swimming pools---now when you fly into Phoenix, all you see is BROWN--no grass and few pools. SoCal is a desert and they should start conserving water.

Idiots here like to have water hungry grass lawns as well. It's stupid and wasteful times 10.

 

[eagle1462010]

New Summer Fashion wear Soyth California

 

[Concerned American]

In short, there is simply not enough water available to supply that large of a population. Period. Even in the wettest of winters like in 2017 when the Oroville Dam overtopped because of too much water the state was still in their perpetual state of drought. When every reservoir in the state was at and over maximum capacity and there was still not enough water, that shows you have a consumption problem, not a supply problem.

Your post is spot on but in addition to the over-population in SoCal and their water theft, you have the necessary ag in the central valley that has to be supported--that area is becoming over populated as well. Add to that, the demands of the Sac-San Joaquin river delta and supporting the marine life, shipping and effluent concerns from the SF Bay. It is very complicated, but over-population is the root of the problem.

 

[excalibur]

Was fake news, and is still fake news.

Care to discuss the chart from your own reference that shows no major change in rainfall in over 2,000 years?

The thread topic is the Colorado River Basin, and that is under drought now.

 

[EdwinAMartin]

I love me some Western water threads.....They always deliver!

I'll tell you what though, yeah, I can watch millions of gallons of water roll by my place along the Shenandoah River but it seems like there is less flow every year from drawing out of it.

But hell yes, build another 100 homes and maybe even a data center. Go ahead and put that water restriction sign up earlier every damn year.

People are just plain stupid but at least I will have run out the clock on them by the time it's too late.

The morons build chip fab plants in Az. and central Texas. Then the morons who work in them snivel when they can't water their lawns every day.

 

[EdwinAMartin]

I love me some Western water threads.....They always deliver!

I'll tell you what though, yeah, I can watch millions of gallons of water roll by my place along the Shenandoah River but it seems like there is less flow every year from drawing out of it.

But hell yes, build another 100 homes and maybe even a data center. Go ahead and put that water restriction sign up earlier every damn year.

People are just plain stupid but at least I will have run out the clock on them by the time it's too late.

Having all that plumbing without having to drill your own wells and draw river water creates a fantasy bubble that there is an endless supply of water, and it just magically appears in a faucet out of nowhere. Same with food, fuel, clothes, etc.

 

[eagle1462010]

Having all that plumbing without having to drill your own wells and draw river water creates a fantasy bubble that there is an endless supply of water, and it just magically appears in a faucet out of nowhere. Same with food, fuel, clothes, etc.

It we run out of water in L.A., LOWER ALABAMA, then this nation is fucked.

 

[Mushroom]

Why doesn't L.A. capture all that water in their huge freakin' ditch thing that just runs to the sea and run it through a water treatment plant? The sea does not need the fresh water, people do.

Then you have two other serious factors start to kick in.

First of all is another issue that California has had for decades. In electricity it is production, but when it comes to water it's containment.

The last reservoir built in that state for containment was in 2003 with the Diamond Valley Reservoir in Riverside County. It sits along the Colorado River Aqueduct, and is supposed to increase the amount of water impounded before going to LA. But that is fed by the Colorado River Aqueduct, it does not actually catch very much local precipitation.

Before that, it was the New Melones Dam way up in the mountains east of Stockton. That actually does impound water from the Stanislaus River, and was built in 1979.

That's it, an exploding population and only two new reservoirs built. And of the two, only one of them actually adds "new water" into the system. The New Melones actually does contain water that would have simply run into the ocean otherwise. And Diamond Valley did not increase the amount of water captured in the system, it simply increased local storage along an already existing aqueduct.

Meanwhile the Stiles project has been in the works and on hold for over half a century now. But once again, that will not actually contain any new water sources, it is simply a pumped storage system that will take water from the Sacramento River with pumps, and then pump it out as needed. Just containment, not a new source.

And there has to be a certain amount of water flowing out, as wildlife relies upon that. Sure, they can completely cut off the water at almost any time and stop dumping much to the ocean at all. But that will devastate the wildlife that relies upon that water flow.

I use to live less than a mile from the Oroville Reservoir. And watching the lake level rise and fall was normal. Right now it is at peak, as it is every year from March-May when it is capturing and impounding the runoff from the mountains. And they are now opening the flow up, as it is the spring salmon season. And salmon need increased water flow in order to swim upstream to spawn.

And for the rest of the year they will let the water out as needed, for irrigation, power, and drinking water. And this will continue until around August-September. At which point they will open it up once again, allowing the last of the water to flow out because that is when the fall salmon season is going on.

And by the end of September, they will start to see news crews arriving to broadcast the now empty reservoir, and saying it is proof that there is a drought. Even though they have been emptying it every year since 1968. They have to, the amount of downflow from the Sierra-Nevada Mountains is so massive that unless the dam is empty it can not hold all of the water coming in. And even with the dam empty, it sometimes can not contain all the water coming in (look to 2017 to see how that went).

 

[Mushroom]

It we run out of water in L.A., LOWER ALABAMA, then this nation is fucked.

I actually did that move myself in 2003. Moving from LA to LA. And I preferred the Wiregass to Los Angeles.

 

[Mushroom]

The area of the Colorado River Basin is in drought, You can lie all you want about that fact, but it is in drought.

Has the amount of rainfall decreased? Yes or no?

If the rainfall has not decreased, then it is a consumption issue and not a supply issue. Therefore not "Environmental" at all, other than the excess of human population damaging the environment.

 

[Mushroom]

The thread topic is the Colorado River Basin, and that is under drought now.

View attachment 1257112

And once again, is that due to excessive use by humans, or lower rainfalls?

That is why I rejected that chart, because it states that it is including the water used for agricultural and other purposes. In other words, the water taken away by man. I only count the water that falls as precipitation.

Like so many, you are attempting to confuse the issue by discussing the amount of water used, not the amount of water that actually enters the system. And that is unchanged.

 

[MarathonMike]

The morons build chip fab plants in Az. and central Texas. Then the morons who work in them snivel when they can't water their lawns every day.

Someone else who knows zero about living in Arizona, just like the clueless OP.

 

[excalibur]

Has the amount of rainfall decreased? Yes or no?

If the rainfall has not decreased, then it is a consumption issue and not a supply issue. Therefore not "Environmental" at all, other than the excess of human population damaging the environment.

The Colorado River Basin is in a drought.

Drought means less precipitation, that is why it is called a drought.

 

[Concerned American]

LOL

The area of the Colorado River Basin is in drought, You can lie all you want about that fact, but it is in drought.

It's a desert---it gets <10" of rain in year---it is in perpetual drought.

 

[Mushroom]

The Colorado River Basin is in a drought.

Drought means less precipitation, that is why it is called a drought.

That is right, and wrong.

That has been the definition for centuries. A drought is when there is a decrease in precipitation.

In case you did not know, that definition has changed in the last decades.

When the physical shortage of water (from meteorological, agricultural, or hydrological events) begins to affect the supply and demand of economic goods, water, and food.

Climate Change And Extreme Events: Droughts - ClimaTalk

ClimaTalk Droughts: deficiency of precipitation that results in water shortage for some activity or for some group

climatalk.org

In other words, if too much water is being taken out of a system by humans, that is a drought also.

Funny, how I seem to actually understand this far more than you do. And can actually back up what I am stating with references.

A period with an abnormal soil moisture deficit, caused by a combination of a shortage of precipitation and excess evapotranspiration. This reduces crop production or harms ecosystem.

https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg1/downloads/factsheets/IPCC_AR6_WGI_Sectoral_Fact_Sheet_Introduction.pdf

And the key word there is evapotranspiration. That is water passing through the vascular system of a plant. In other words, agriculture. Therefore, "excess evapotranspiration" literally means too much water was removed from the system in order to irrigate crops.

So sorry bubba, as much as you claim to be all hip with the science, you completely fail here because you do not actually understand you are using an outdated definition that does not apply to what you are trying to claim.

By the old definition, rainfall has not decreased. Your own damned reference says as such. What has increased is the demand on the resource by humans.

Notice, I provided multiple references to the new definition, including the definition used by the IPCC. Now please give me a reference that states that there is less precipitation.

 

[excalibur]

It's a desert---it gets <10" of rain in year---it is in perpetual drought.

No, it isn't in perpetual drought, a drought is abnormally low compared to normal precipitation. So if it normally ~10" and it gets 10", that is normal and not a drought.

Also, the upper basin has far higher numbers in normal years.

Upper Basin (Headwaters): The mountainous regions in Colorado, Wyoming, and Utah receive the majority of the basin's precipitation. High-altitude alpine areas can receive over 40 inches annually, predominantly in the form of winter snow.​

https://wwa.colorado.edu/sites/default/files/2021-06/ColoRiver_StateOfScience_WWA_2020_Chapter_2.pdf

 

[excalibur]

That is right, and wrong.

That has been the definition for centuries. A drought is when there is a decrease in precipitation.

In case you did not know, that definition has changed in the last decades.

Climate Change And Extreme Events: Droughts - ClimaTalk

ClimaTalk Droughts: deficiency of precipitation that results in water shortage for some activity or for some group

climatalk.org

In other words, if too much water is being taken out of a system by humans, that is a drought also.

Funny, how I seem to actually understand this far more than you do. And can actually back up what I am stating with references.

https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg1/downloads/factsheets/IPCC_AR6_WGI_Sectoral_Fact_Sheet_Introduction.pdf

And the key word there is evapotranspiration. That is water passing through the vascular system of a plant. In other words, agriculture. Therefore, "excess evapotranspiration" literally means too much water was removed from the system in order to irrigate crops.

So sorry bubba, as much as you claim to be all hip with the science, you completely fail here because you do not actually understand you are using an outdated definition that does not apply to what you are trying to claim.

By the old definition, rainfall has not decreased. Your own damned reference says as such. What has increased is the demand on the resource by humans.

Notice, I provided multiple references to the new definition, including the definition used by the IPCC. Now please give me a reference that states that there is less precipitation.

The Palmer drought index, the gold standard, is mainly, though not exclusively about precipitation.

The Palmer Drought Severity Index (PDSI) is a comprehensive water-balance model. While it primarily relies on precipitation as the main moisture supply, it also factors in temperature and local soil properties to determine total water demand and actual soil moisture.​

And that is where we ae at in the Colorado River Basin, a drought.