United Democracies?

[5stringJeff]

Most anyone will tell you that the UN may be good in theory, but is horrible in practice. There are also many calls to get the US out of the UN. But since the US is often the lone voice of freedom and democracy in the UN, the organization would soon turn even worse than it already is.

My solution: create a new organization, the United Democracies. The US, UK, Australia, Poland, Indonesia, etc. would all be eligible to join, as would any other country committed to democracy and freedom, to include republics, constitutional monarchies (like the UK) - any country in which the people have the right to elect their rulers. Afghanistan would be eligible right now; Iraq would have to wait for a couple of months.
Those not eligible to join: communist countries, monarchies, dictatorships - any country that does not allow the right of the people to elect their own leaders. China, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, Sudan, etc. They would still have the UN, though.
Oh, and one more thing: membership in the UD would not be allowed if the country was also a member of the UN. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists, baby!

 

[CSM]

Most anyone will tell you that the UN may be good in theory, but is horrible in practice. There are also many calls to get the US out of the UN. But since the US is often the lone voice of freedom and democracy in the UN, the organization would soon turn even worse than it already is.

My solution: create a new organization, the United Democracies. The US, UK, Australia, Poland, Indonesia, etc. would all be eligible to join, as would any other country committed to democracy and freedom, to include republics, constitutional monarchies (like the UK) - any country in which the people have the right to elect their rulers. Afghanistan would be eligible right now; Iraq would have to wait for a couple of months.
Those not eligible to join: communist countries, monarchies, dictatorships - any country that does not allow the right of the people to elect their own leaders. China, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, Sudan, etc. They would still have the UN, though.
Oh, and one more thing: membership in the UD would not be allowed if the country was also a member of the UN. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists, baby!

Now there is an interesting proposal!

 

[NATO AIR]

hey gop_jeff, here is your idea pretty much enshrined in reality already... now it just needs the proper push from pres. bush and we can make it happen bigtime.

"The Community Of Democracies"

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/36455.htm

 

[5stringJeff]

hey gop_jeff, here is your idea pretty much enshrined in reality already... now it just needs the proper push from pres. bush and we can make it happen bigtime.

"The Community Of Democracies"

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/36455.htm

Sweet! Now we just have to convince all the democracies to leave the UN, and we are set!

 

[NATO AIR]

Sweet! Now we just have to convince all the democracies to leave the UN, and we are set!

we will work on that, we must.

how about a new security council with japan, india, america, england, brazil, australia, poland, italy, turkey, canada, south korea, south africa and a couple of others?

way to stick it to the french, russians and chinese.

 

[Isaac Brock]

I like the idea as it fair and just. I am wary though of completely removing a venue for international diplomacy, flawed as it may be. Essentially, it would create a Democratic Bloc and the "Everyother-system" Bloc. I don't know if the world needs this kind of escaltion. It seems to much akin to the Cold War divide and I don't think the world can afford it. There needs to be a some forum for diplomacy and for things like the Geneva Convention.

However, as a parallel system I think it has great merit. Reduce activities in the UN and replace them within the Community of Democracies. I think trade is one area that would be more important to move to this new assembly as an incentives for other countries to reform and join.

Despite anti-France and Russia sentiment, I think they should have every right in joining as they are democracies. I think, however, if it is truly to be a Community of Democracies, the old veto mentality of the UN Security Council should be removed.

 

[NATO AIR]

I like the idea as it fair and just. I am wary though of completely removing a venue for international diplomacy, flawed as it may be. Essentially, it would create a Democratic Bloc and the "Everyother-system" Bloc. I don't know if the world needs this kind of escaltion. It seems to much akin to the Cold War divide and I don't think the world can afford it. There needs to be a some forum for diplomacy and for things like the Geneva Convention.

However, as a parallel system I think it has great merit. Reduce activities in the UN and replace them within the Community of Democracies. I think trade is one area that would be more important to move to this new assembly as an incentives for other countries to reform and join.

Despite anti-France and Russia sentiment, I think they should have every right in joining as they are democracies. I think, however, if it is truly to be a Community of Democracies, the old veto mentality of the UN Security Council should be removed.

sad part is russia isn't a democracy anymore. its czar putin's national playground.

i think that escalation needs to happen issac.... the march to freedom has slowed in many nations as oppressors and terrorists have gained more and more power and used the US and its just actions as reasons.

 

[Isaac Brock]

sad part is russia isn't a democracy anymore. its czar putin's national playground.

i think that escalation needs to happen issac.... the march to freedom has slowed in many nations as oppressors and terrorists have gained more and more power and used the US and its just actions as reasons.

Though I understand your point, I do differ. Russia may not be the model for democracy as it stands, but given what it was less than 10 years ago it has made strides. Blocking the Russians would push them in the wrong direction and increase anti-US sentiments in a country that is reasonably warm to the US at the moment. Remember the Putin is a supporter of your government-elect.

Russia's problems in their government are severe. Corruption and secuirty threats are greater than perhaps any democratic government. While this does not excuse some of its measures completely, the reality is that all Russians have the right to vote and do so. The majority russians do support Putin and agree with what he's doing. Whether we agree or not, does not change that and is irrelevant.

In this day and age, I don't think we have the luxury of affording which Democracies we prefer. I vehemently believe that escalation of rifts is the sure way to international conflict. Unless the threat is a clear and present (ie. Iran, NK, Sudan), drawing a line in the sand is a sure way to get Nations to jump on the other side.

 

[NATO AIR]

Though I understand your point, I do differ. Russia may not be the model for democracy as it stands, but given what it was less than 10 years ago it has made strides. Blocking the Russians would push them in the wrong direction and increase anti-US sentiments in a country that is reasonably warm to the US at the moment. Remember the Putin is a supporter of your government-elect.

Russia's problems in their government are severe. Corruption and secuirty threats are greater than perhaps any democratic government. While this does not excuse some of its measures completely, the reality is that all Russians have the right to vote and do so. The majority russians do support Putin and agree with what he's doing. Whether we agree or not, does not change that and is irrelevant.

In this day and age, I don't think we have the luxury of affording which Democracies we prefer. I vehemently believe that escalation of rifts is the sure way to international conflict. Unless the threat is a clear and present (ie. Iran, NK, Sudan), drawing a line in the sand is a sure way to get Nations to jump on the other side.

i understand. our interests should not be whether russia is supporting us or not but whether their people are free. we spent too much and sacrificed for too long to allow it to slide back into a repressive environment without at least trying to influence it back to democracy.

the line in the sand must be drawn to an extent with several nations that try to straddle and only hurt us and the interests of peace and prosperity in the world. coddling china, sudan, north korea and other nations is only going to hurt us seriously in the future.

i'm joking about france, they can join and be a member.. it is always good to keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.

as far as russia, i would place them on a provisional status, along with nations like jordan and pakistan, which are struggling along a more democratic path.

 

[CSM]

i understand. our interests should not be whether russia is supporting us or not but whether their people are free. we spent too much and sacrificed for too long to allow it to slide back into a repressive environment without at least trying to influence it back to democracy.

the line in the sand must be drawn to an extent with several nations that try to straddle and only hurt us and the interests of peace and prosperity in the world. coddling china, sudan, north korea and other nations is only going to hurt us seriously in the future.

i'm joking about france, they can join and be a member.. it is always good to keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.

as far as russia, i would place them on a provisional status, along with nations like jordan and pakistan, which are struggling along a more democratic path.

In my opinion, we must be careful in an endeavor like this not to fall into the trap that the UN fell into and that is Utopian ideals which do not match reality. That, to me, is the underlying downfall of the UN.

 

[Isaac Brock]

i understand. our interests should not be whether russia is supporting us or not but whether their people are free. we spent too much and sacrificed for too long to allow it to slide back into a repressive environment without at least trying to influence it back to democracy.

the line in the sand must be drawn to an extent with several nations that try to straddle and only hurt us and the interests of peace and prosperity in the world. coddling china, sudan, north korea and other nations is only going to hurt us seriously in the future.

i'm joking about france, they can join and be a member.. it is always good to keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.

as far as russia, i would place them on a provisional status, along with nations like jordan and pakistan, which are struggling along a more democratic path.

In that I agree. NK, China etc are so far away from the line. The benefit of having such a new forum, especially if it routed most of western trade would be that it would appeal to China's new found love of prosperity. Perhaps it's the carrot needed to China to reform itself. Although I suppose it's hard to a few millenia of autocratic rule from a culture such a China's. Simply put, the average Chinese person has no interest in Democracy.

It would be intersting if perhaps there was a clause that all nations in the new organization would be subject to electoral monitoring to ensure it passes as a Democracy. That would allow the provisional countries, which would be a reasonable compromise (though I don't know if I still agree that Russia should be included), to become full fledged members.

 

[NATO AIR]

In my opinion, we must be careful in an endeavor like this not to fall into the trap that the UN fell into and that is Utopian ideals which do not match reality. That, to me, is the underlying downfall of the UN.

that is true... this is merely an attempt to replace an archaic, rotting organization ruled by dictators, greedy leaders and mass murderers with an organization that can be a better instrument to assisting the stabilization of as much of the world as possible with prosperity, security, peace and justice.

 

[NATO AIR]

In that I agree. NK, China etc are so far away from the line. The benefit of having such a new forum, especially if it routed most of western trade would be that it would appeal to China's new found love of prosperity. Perhaps it's the carrot needed to China to reform itself. Although I suppose it's hard to a few millenia of autocratic rule from a culture such a China's. Simply put, the average Chinese person has no interest in Democracy.

It would be intersting if perhaps there was a clause that all nations in the new organization would be subject to electoral monitoring to ensure it passes as a Democracy. That would allow the provisional countries, which would be a reasonable compromise (though I don't know if I still agree that Russia should be included), to become full fledged members.

good and fair reasoning. i have always thought chinese democracy will be very different from what we see as democracy, but still within the parameters of every citizen given a fair shake at life and a reasonable amount of personal freedom and fair government.

 

[CSM]

that is true... this is merely an attempt to replace an archaic, rotting organization ruled by dictators, greedy leaders and mass murderers with an organization that can be a better instrument to assisting the stabilization of as much of the world as possible with prosperity, security, peace and justice.

Understood. I would point out that all fledgling democracies have their problems. The US had a lot of trouble dealing with the whole slavery and civil rights thing. Democracy is inherently a dynamic ideal as evidenced by the fact that the US still has issues it is dealing with. This nation is certainly not perfect, but it is at least making efforts to improve itself.

 

[NATO AIR]

Understood. I would point out that all fledgling democracies have their problems. The US had a lot of trouble dealing with the whole slavery and civil rights thing. Democracy is inherently a dynamic ideal as evidenced by the fact that the US still has issues it is dealing with. This nation is certainly not perfect, but it is at least making efforts to improve itself.

and that is the best we can ask for, to constantly challenge ourselves and try to improve.