Unions: Is this time and money well spent?

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I think it's generally a good idea for people to have the ability to make their own choices. Don't you?

It's a nice idea. But consider the outcome of making all laws, rules, and regulations (and taxes) optional.

Yet another reason to oppose unions, their supporters always want to make them mandatory.

Yes, liberalism is based in violence, but its for our own good!!

 

[MikeK]

I think it's generally a good idea for people to have the ability to make their own choices. Don't you?

It's a nice idea. But consider the outcome of making all laws, rules, and regulations (and taxes) optional.

Yet another reason to oppose unions, their supporters always want to make them mandatory.

I know Teamsters membership is mandatory. But I don't think you'll find many members who object.

Mandatory membership is the means by which unions prevent the hiring of "scabs," which inevitably will result in incremental degrading of wages and conditions.

 

[asterism]

I think it's generally a good idea for people to have the ability to make their own choices. Don't you?

It's a nice idea. But consider the outcome of making all laws, rules, and regulations (and taxes) optional.

Yet another reason to oppose unions, their supporters always want to make them mandatory.

I know Teamsters membership is mandatory. But I don't think you'll find many members who object.

Mandatory membership is the means by which unions prevent the hiring of "scabs," which inevitably will result in incremental degrading of wages and conditions.

How did that work out for the UAW?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I think it's generally a good idea for people to have the ability to make their own choices. Don't you?

It's a nice idea. But consider the outcome of making all laws, rules, and regulations (and taxes) optional.

Yet another reason to oppose unions, their supporters always want to make them mandatory.

I know Teamsters membership is mandatory. But I don't think you'll find many members who object.

Mandatory membership is the means by which unions prevent the hiring of "scabs," which inevitably will result in incremental degrading of wages and conditions.

But intelligent people like scabs since they work for less, lower our prices, make our country more competitive, keep jobs here, and keep our manufacturing base here.

Would we want to give all that up so a few violent traitorous liberal thugs can get higher wages at our expense?

 

[Andylusion]

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I had a Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo, V8, with hitch, and all the bells and whistles.

That's not a luxury car. A Jeep is a nice car but not luxury

I'm not even talking about the value of the car. You can't afford the gas in Italy, or a place to park it. I've been there. You can't. That's why they drive all those tiny midget mobiles.

Who can't afford gas in Italy? It's a G7 country with a GDP per capital of 35K USD. Yeah, gasoline is more than here, but their cars are smaller and use less gasoline. You're talking to someone with an Italian passport, properties in Italy, and that lived there for the better part of six years. Seriously, your statements don't reflect reality.

That's my point. You can't afford to buy a car, like any of the cars I've had, in Italy. Not even close. Again, you can say my statements don't reflect reality, but I've been there. I've seen how they live. I know people personally who live there to this day, and have been there for over 30 years. You can't afford to buy, let alone pay for the gas for my Jeep Grand Cherokee, or my Buick Rivera, or my Grand Marquis.

You got one thing right, their cars are smaller... much smaller.... so small they look like ants compared to American cars. Italians would love to have nice large, fast cars, they simply can't afford the car or the gas.

To compare, again, I earn $20K a year, and my home is 1.2K sq feet. Or... 111 sq Meters. And I have two bedrooms, and I have
Do you assume that all the politicians speak for public? I doubt it.

Generally, in a democracy, last time I checked, people elect politicians to represent them.

It's always funny to see that the arguments change drastically depending on the topic. Among thousands of posts about Soros, and Koch, and lobbyists, and special interest, and government is owned by the corporations.... now suddenly.... Democracy is 100% about politicians representing the people.

Democracy is about 51% of the public oppressing the other 49%.

But it's not even that. In 2012, Obama got 66 million votes, while the US population was 312 Million. 21% of the population got to dictate policy to the other 79%.

Democracy rarely if ever really represents the will of the people.

More home construction would lower the cost of getting a place to live.

The amount of red tape builders have to jump through in Italy is insane. Between local council members, organized crime, and culture built on bribes, it's amazing anything get done there.

Which would seem to contradict your claim that the public doesn't want more housing construction.

Currently, the cost of an average 1 bedroom rental apartment, is 400 Euros ($500 a month), that's for a 50 sq meter apartment, or a 530 sq foot apartment. And that's for an apartment on the outskirts. A 'downtown' apartment will run you 800 to 1000 Euros.

It depends where you live. You can't get a hole in the wall in Rome or Milano at those prices. But yeah, a few kilometers outside of some of the major cities, you can get some sweet deals.

Again.... I've been there. I've been out in the boonies of Italy, were prices are lower because there are no jobs. That's where my family friends that live in Italy, live. Those "sweet deals" you are talking about, are still a tiny fraction of the homes you can get in the boonies of America. I have relatives that live in the hills of Southern Ohio, and they live in homes that in Italy would be consider mansions.

So, they earn quite a bit less. They pay nearly double in taxes. Pay triple in Utility costs. Pay many times as much in fuel. Live in significantly smaller homes, at a vastly higher price. Heaven forbid you want to to go out to eat, the cheap joint is $30. A decent mid level restaurant, is $60 to $70..... for one person.

You can't compare the restaurants at all. A mid level restaurant in Italy is orders of magnitude better than anything found in the US.

Ugh! Every single restaurant I went to, was TERRIBLE. Texas Roadhouse is half the price, and at the very least, on their WORST day, 100X better. You are nuts. Italy restaurants were miserable. They were just a half step over McDonalds, except with worse service, and draconian prices. You are freakin nuts.

In terms of income, the north of Italy earns significantly more then the South. There's parts of Veneto, for example, that have a GDP per capita closer to Germany, mostly because the north consists of heavy industry, manufacturing, small to medium size firms, etc.

While that IS true... it still doesn't matter, because those wages simply don't go as far. If me and a guy in italy earn the exact same wage, I'm still by FAR better off than him. Because I can afford better stuff, and more stuff. He has to pay higher taxes, high energy bills, and higher prices on all his goods.

Yup, we also have 30,000 gun deaths per year. We spend two to three times as other countries, but we're at the bottom of the totem pole (adjusting for your reporting differences) for infant mortality and major diseases.

Again, with adjusting reporting differences, they simply don't report. You can't take into account, things that are not reported. There is no statistics for "number of European infant deaths not counted", otherwise, they would be counted. They are not counted.... at all. A baby born too early, is not counted as ever being born, let alone died. You can't "adjust for that", because there is no adjustment to be made.

If you really want to explain to me how one includes infant deaths that there is no record of ever having been born, I'd *LOVE* for you to try. By all means.

Second, our health care system is overly expensive, because of government.

Third, despite that, we have the best health care in the world. You have a better chance of being healed of your illness here, than anywhere else in the world.

You can assign any purpose you want to the rational. Doesn't change the fact that I don't have $6,000, that as a $20,000 wage earner, I could really use.

It sounds like you need to find a new job, dude.

If you people stopped stealing my money that I rightfully earned... I wouldn't have to find another job. I love how arrogant people come on here, support policies that harm others, and then when we point that out, just arrogantly say "go find another job".

If I want to earn more, I'll do that. But when you steal my money, that's not a problem of how much I earn. It's a problem of how much you steal.

That's your opinion. Thanks, but I don't care about your opinion. The people of Hostess still all lost their jobs, no matter what your opinion is. The people of GM and Chrysler still lost their jobs, no matter what you claim is revisionism.

Yes, they did and that's unfortunate, but organized labor isn't to blame, unless you want to consign people to shitty wage jobs with zero benefits. Hey....while we're at it, let's repeal child labor laws as well.

Well now they have zero benefits AND zero wages. Well done. Bravo. You sure stuck it to them.

I'm interested in reality, and not your cherry picked statistics. For example, you are wrong about what Germany pays their autoworkers, and you don't even know it.

You can freely look up their hourly wages vs their American counterparts.

Yes, and I have. And it's about the same, when you include temp workers, which before the crash was the majority of auto workers in Germany. In fact Socialist groups attack the German auto companies over this. I am right about this. You need to go learn more about the topic.

First of all, Germany has no minimum wage laws, so they do things by contracts.

As it now stands, the average German autoworker earns around 67/hr in total compensation vs 34/hr for his/her American counterpart.

Here:

A tale of two systems Remapping Debate

Secondly, those German temp workers are a way to suppress wages. Germany's export-at-any-cost model has created significant problems for the country. It's more race to the bottom neoliberalism which has had a negative impact on the Germany economy.

Total Fiasco Germans are the Poorest Cypriots the Second Richest in The Eurozone Wolf Street

I already caught your article in a lie. Domestic and Japanese automakers operating in the US, pay more per hour, than the $33 your article claims.

In other words, the entire article is now questionable.

Again, your blaming neoliberalism, is a joke. Before Germany allowed temp workers with lower wages, the unemployment rate was climbing every year, to over 12%. Allowing temps, and thus lowering labor costs, cut the unemployment rate in half.

This is a good thing. Are you really suggestion that having millions of people earn *ZERO* is better than a wage that is lower? You'd rather have them starve? You'd rather have them homeless on the street unable to find a job? That's better in your world? Because that's what was going on under your system.

You realize that unlike the rest of Europe, and even the US, German unemployment rate barely increased 1% during the 2008 down turn, and is now in the low 5% rage, better than even ours? You think 13% during 2006 when the global economy was booming, was better for the German people? High wages of ..... ZERO... is better?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

This is a good thing. Are you really suggestion that having millions of people earn *ZERO* is better than a wage that is lower?

yes, I work across the street from a huge factory the union kept picketing for years after the company moved out in the middle of a weekend night. The commie union movement wants to establish the concept that a job has nothing to do with economics, but rather just with the employees getting rip off wages!

 

[Andylusion]

[...]

Or maybe unions have outlived their usefulness in their current incarnations and have failed to adapt.

[...]

The possibility that unions have outlived their usefulness would depend entirely on the existence of some substantial, inflexible means of protecting workers against exploitation by greedy and inconsiderate employers, such as those who prevailed before the union movement gave rise to the American Middle Class. Are you aware of any such preventive mechanism?

Re: the notion of unions having "failed to adapt;" the obvious question is -- adapt to what? Deregulation and disempowering legislation which has stripped them of the legal means of fulfilling their purpose?

They never had any real power. You can't force customers to pay high prices, to fund high union wages. As a result, there is always a general elimination of union over time. We tried pro-union, protectionist strategies before. It was called "The Great Depression". It didn't work.

 

[Andylusion]

This is a good thing. Are you really suggestion that having millions of people earn *ZERO* is better than a wage that is lower?

yes, I work across the street from a huge factory the union kept picketing for years after the company moved out in the middle of a weekend night. The commie union movement wants to establish the concept that a job has nothing to do with economics, but rather just with the employees getting rip off wages!

Exactly. There is no pro-union american movement that has resulted in anything good.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Exactly. There is no pro-union american movement that has resulted in anything good.

a liberal will see the higher wages as unquestionably good only because he lacks the IQ to understand the larger ramifications of those wages.

 

[Andylusion]

Exactly. There is no pro-union american movement that has resulted in anything good.

a liberal will see the higher wages as unquestionably good only because he lacks the IQ to understand the larger ramifications of those wages.

What's really stupid, is that those very same liberals, will turn around and complain bitterly about the high cost of goods.... never grasping the contradiction between those positions.

 

[asterism]

Unions really could be pioneers in the labor market by providing a structure and pathway to higher paying jobs. Instead of demanding a "living wage" for every single employed person, they could use technology, advanced management processes, and innovation to provide a higher value per worker to the corporation.

Many of the trade unions still do this with variable levels of success, and those that put value delivered to the company at the forefront are the most successful. Verizon has a pretty good relationship with the IBEW and CWA here (Florida) and as long as the union provides an economic reason for members to pay dues, the membership levels remain strong. There is still an issue with collective bargaining which disincentivizes superstar techs from joining when they can make more on their own, but the average worker is better off because the pay is higher and challenging jobs are easier to grab in the unions. A key (in this area at least) point is that the unions do not tolerate poor performance and they don't constantly push for more and more compensation just of the sake of pushing.

Protectionist rackets, turf wars, and strongarm tactics simply do not work. Entire companies have relocated instead of going union in response to that thuggery.

If you ever want to see some of the worst behavior that is encouraged by unions, buy a booth at a trade show in New York or Las Vegas. The equipment has to be loaded by workers from one union, and only if it's on a truck with a union driver. The equipment has to be plugged in by a worker from another union. Need internet? Put in a request and wait for yet another union worker to saunter along. If the power isn't on yet the data technician will come back tomorrow. Need a replacement for a broken demo? Don't ship it overnight, it'll sit in receiving for days. Don't get caught taking it in through the front door because "that's illegal." Don't take it through the back door because it won't get unloaded without a job request (7 day lead time required) and only from a union driver. There was simply no way to solve problems and nobody cared, the workers get paid anyway. Simply taking out the trash is a hassle. You can't do it yourself, but the janitors only make their rounds on a predefined schedule. In extreme cases you have to literally bribe a few people. $200 to empty one trash can? Really?

 

[MikeK]

How did that work out for the UAW?

The UAW is a textbook example of a union gone bad because of progressively worsening, self-serving, crooked and incompetent leadership.

As mentioned in a previous message, unions are democracies. Their leaders are elected by their memberships. When the members become complacent, fail to pay attention to critical issues, or simply fail to vote, the UAW is the typical consequence.

What happened to the UAW is what's been happening to the U.S. beginning with Ronald Reagan. But I hope you aren't inclined to toss out the baby with the bath-water.

 

[jasonnfree]

Exactly. There is no pro-union american movement that has resulted in anything good.

a liberal will see the higher wages as unquestionably good only because he lacks the IQ to understand the larger ramifications of those wages.

Ed, I asked you before for a breakdown of I.Q's for democrats and republicans and you haven't supplied them yet. This makes me almost think that you make this i.q . thing up. Don't let me down please.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Exactly. There is no pro-union american movement that has resulted in anything good.

a liberal will see the higher wages as unquestionably good only because he lacks the IQ to understand the larger ramifications of those wages.

Ed, I asked you before for a breakdown of I.Q's for democrats and republicans and you haven't supplied them yet. This makes me almost think that you make this i.q . thing up. Don't let me down please.

Breakdown is simple. Just ask a liberal to say something intelligent in support of liberalism. Let me know what the answer is. Thanks

 

[MikeK]

Unions really could be pioneers in the labor market by providing a structure and pathway to higher paying jobs. Instead of demanding a "living wage" for every single employed person, they could use technology, advanced management processes, and innovation to provide a higher value per worker to the corporation.

Many of the trade unions still do this with variable levels of success, and those that put value delivered to the company at the forefront are the most successful. Verizon has a pretty good relationship with the IBEW and CWA here (Florida) and as long as the union provides an economic reason for members to pay dues, the membership levels remain strong. There is still an issue with collective bargaining which disincentivizes superstar techs from joining when they can make more on their own, but the average worker is better off because the pay is higher and challenging jobs are easier to grab in the unions. A key (in this area at least) point is that the unions do not tolerate poor performance and they don't constantly push for more and more compensation just of the sake of pushing.

Protectionist rackets, turf wars, and strongarm tactics simply do not work. Entire companies have relocated instead of going union in response to that thuggery.

If you ever want to see some of the worst behavior that is encouraged by unions, buy a booth at a trade show in New York or Las Vegas. The equipment has to be loaded by workers from one union, and only if it's on a truck with a union driver. The equipment has to be plugged in by a worker from another union. Need internet? Put in a request and wait for yet another union worker to saunter along. If the power isn't on yet the data technician will come back tomorrow. Need a replacement for a broken demo? Don't ship it overnight, it'll sit in receiving for days. Don't get caught taking it in through the front door because "that's illegal." Don't take it through the back door because it won't get unloaded without a job request (7 day lead time required) and only from a union driver. There was simply no way to solve problems and nobody cared, the workers get paid anyway. Simply taking out the trash is a hassle. You can't do it yourself, but the janitors only make their rounds on a predefined schedule. In extreme cases you have to literally bribe a few people. $200 to empty one trash can? Really?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

What happened to the UAW is what's been happening to the U.S. beginning with Ronald Reagan. But I hope you aren't inclined to toss out the baby with the bath-water.[/QUOTE]

the liberal lacks the IQ to understand how capitalism makes us rich through efficiency. If workers can use violence to get better wages, then consumers can use violence to get better prices, and management to get better pay for themselves and lower pay for workers.

Capitalism leaves everyone free to make only deals wherein both parties are enriched, not deals wherein one party is enriched through violence at the expense of the other.

Simple enough?

 

[MikeK]

Exactly. There is no pro-union american movement that has resulted in anything good.

That statement clearly and conveniently summarizes your position. The fact you can say something like that eliminates the need for argument or further discussion with you.

I don't know what you do for a living, if in fact you are old enough to be employed, but if you are an American worker you presently enjoy a 40-hour work-week, overtime pay, paid vacation, and a number of protective labor laws -- none of which would exist without pressure on U.S. legislators by the union movement.

It could be you are a management-level employee, or an employer, who has cause to resent unions, which will account for your position and will similarly eliminate the need for further discussion with you. But if you are a worker who has been shaped into a corporatist Tory by such multi-millionaire corporatist propagandists as Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, et al, I strongly suggest you educate yourself on the subject of unions and the union movement. And the following list of books will accommodate that purpose:

There is Power in a Union: The Epic Story of Labor in America
by Philip Dray

Triangle: The Fire That Changed America
by David von Drehle

Growing Up in Coal Country
by Susan Campbell Bartoletti

Trade Unions Under Capitalism
by Tom Clarke

Sweat and Blood: A History of U.S. Labor Unions
by Gloria Skurzynski

Power and Privilege: Labor Unions in America
by Morgan O. Reynolds

Why Unions Matter
by Michael D. Yates

Strike: Mother Jones and the Colorado Coal Field War
by Lois Ruby

Which Side Are You On?: The Story of a Song
by George Ella Lyon

But if you're not willing to call up Amazon and start ordering, or to rush to your local library and start searching, the following is a list of movies available from NetFlix, each of which is an entertaining dramatization of factual historical events and circumstances. The principals in each story might not be as physically attractive as the actors who portray them, but the situations, circumstances, and outcomes are a matter of historical record. An historical record which you choose to repudiate.

Harlan County USA
Norma Rae
The Molly McGuires
On The Waterfront
Silkwood
Matewan
Hoffa

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

-- none of which would exist without pressure on U.S. legislators by the union movement.
.

an absurd liberal lie with no verification whatsoever! In fact capitalism forces business to offer the best possible jobs and products just to survive.

China just switched to capitalism and their worlkers are getting rich with no unions, just capitalism.

A liberal will not think at all!

 

[Andylusion]

Exactly. There is no pro-union american movement that has resulted in anything good.

That statement clearly and conveniently summarizes your position. The fact you can say something like that eliminates the need for argument or further discussion with you.

Right, and the fact you can't figure this out, disqualifies you from the discussion.

People who are absorbed into the propaganda of all the things that would supposedly never have happened without Unions, are just brain washed leftards. That's all you are, and I never expected any real debate with you, because you have your head shoved so far up your own propaganda, you couldn't see reality if someone beat you over the head with it.