U.S. government sues to block vouchers in some Louisiana school systems

[bripat9643]

$5,000 and they get an empty seat with more to spend on remaining students.

The whole point of vouchers is to provide an alternative to the failing public schools.

I suppose the public school system COULD do something to make that unnecessary, but that would require educators to actually focus on education instead of salary and benefits.

the whole point of vouchers is to defund public education.

Here's some crazy idea. How about spending enough on the inner city schools so they can do their jobs?

This is an excellent example of the left's ability to twist and pervert logic to fit a preconceived political message. It is inherently illogical, inconsistent with reality, and tries to evoke emotion rather than rational thought.

Or, as some would say ...... FAIL !

Joe is incapable of committing logic. Just consider his posts on the subject of Love Canal.

 

[bripat9643]

Emotional and Behavior Disorders, Intellectual Disabilities and Learning Disabilities aren't restricted to low income cities. I'd bet Mesa AZ has just about the same percentage of special needs kids as Detroit and yet they graduate 3 times as many HS students for 1/3 the $/pupil.

I can't believe,you're comparing the cost of educating students in Mesa, Az. with Detroit, MI.
The family income in Mesa is $43,256 and $23,600 in Detroit.
The Murder rate in Mesa is 5/100,000 and 45/100,000 in Detroit, the city with highest crime rate in the nation.

In Detroit Public Schools, one in every 5 students is in special education, one of the highest rates in the nation. Detroit Public Schools has lost 1/3 of it's student population mostly to charter schools leaving the most difficult students to educate, a mountain of debt, and insufficient funding. This is exactly what can happen to public schools across the country if voters allow government to use vouchers to suck off the best students and funding from public schools.

That doesn't explain why it costs 3 times as much unless you're saying people who live in Detroit are incapable of learning. Are you a racist?

What will happen with vouchers is that parents who care will send their teachable kids to private schools where they will get an education that will prepare them for the real world. Public schools will see that their system is a failure and either adapt or close.

The first step in solving any problem is proposing a new solution. To say that public education since the beginning of HEW has deteriorated would be an understatement.
Throwing more money at public schools is like filling the gas tank of a car with a blown engine.

What I'm saying is providing education to students from very low income families is costly. Without head start programs and free kindergarten which is expensive, most of these kids won't be ready for 1st grade which means they will lack self confidence, the ability to follow rules and routines, and the ability to sustain any degree of attention to any single task. Low income students are twice as likely to need some type of special ed, a major expense for school districts. Discipline and crime require increased security. However, the major problem is these kids need individual attention which means lower class sizes and teacher aids, another big expense.

The public as well as government bureaucrats are horrified to see schools that have a graduation rate of 50% and are twice as expensive to operate as schools with an 80% graduation rates. What they don't realize is just how hard it is to educate these kids and resources required.

Some people see vouchers as the solution. The problem is that privates schools don't offer the type support these kids need and most of the private schools don't want them. I believe the best students in these "bad" public schools will use vouchers leaving the public schools less money to do an even harder job than they have now. If I thought the public schools would get the funding they needed to deal with the problems, I would have no opposition to vouchers, but I think we all know that will not be the case.

I think we shall agree to disagree. Vouchers are not the problem; they are not the solution; they are a symptom. You cannot cure a disease by treating the symptoms; you only make the patient comfortable while he dies. Parents recognize that the system is failing their children. When they complain to the school system, they are summarily ignored. They are left with only one alternative for their child - leave the school system that is failing them for something better (or perceived to be better).

We, simply, have a broken and failing education system. We throw massive amounts of money at a problem that money can't solve, but we do it so that we can at say we did 'something'. We keep trying to patch a broken system, but never look at the reason WHY it is broken.

The education system today is no different than it was 50 years ago. We lock a group of kids in a classroom, throw information at them, and then test them to see if they can regurgitate what they were just subjected to. Then, when we find that this didn't work, we change the system. We dumb down the presentation, and when that still fails, we dumb down the criteria.

It used to be that our education system valued mediocrity - lower the criteria to include even the least capable student, while punishing the high achievers with boredom. Now, we don't even do that - we expose them to information (not an education), and then we pass them on. It is phenomenally stupid to think that a student who can't read at the 4th grade level should be required to read Shakespeare. But, we do it every day.

So, the 4th grade reader is passed along again - until, eventually, he is passed along right out of school. He is the happy owner of a high school diploma, and is functionally illiterate. Then, we wonder why he can't get a job. The education system has failed him - he didn't fail the education system.

Vouchers aren't the answer - unless, of course,you are a parent who wants a quality education for YOUR child.

Vouchers aren't the answer - they are an indictment of the educational process in the US.

Vouchers aren't the answer - they are a cry for help.

I think most of the objection to vouchers will be a mute points because most private schools are not going to accept vouchers for a number of reasons.

• Most of the states that have passed voucher law have restricted their use to a relatively small part of the student population, for example only students coming from schools scoring an F rating, only students whose family income is less 150% of the poverty level, only areas where no public schools exist, only students with certain disabilities.
• Free or Reduced Lunch programs which serve nearly 50 million students are only available in non-profit schools. Private schools that do offer Free or Reduced lunches must meet a number of serving and reporting requirement plus open their books up to federal audits.
• The majority of private schools have religious based programs/curriculum and most parents who send their children to these schools want that type education. Vouchers will make it difficult if not impossible for these schools to offer a religious based education.
• Many private schools are oppose to vouchers because they do not want the school opened up to government regulation.
• Parents who send their children to private schools of course want vouchers to help pay tuition. However, they also want their school to filter out the undesirable elements that exist in so many public schools. With vouchers, it becomes much more difficult to weed out these students.

The bottom line is even it courts allow these programs, they will have very little effect on public education.

If that's the case, then why do the NEA and NTF spend so much money fighting vouchers? Your criticisms can all be handled with appropriate legislation. For example, the one about government regulation can be handled simply by not allowing government to regulate private schools. That's a demand insisted upon by the NEA and the NTF to deliberately make vouchers unappealing. The voters can easily tell them to go to hell.

 

[bripat9643]

$5,000 and they get an empty seat with more to spend on remaining students.

The whole point of vouchers is to provide an alternative to the failing public schools.

I suppose the public school system COULD do something to make that unnecessary, but that would require educators to actually focus on education instead of salary and benefits.

the whole point of vouchers is to defund public education.

Here's some crazy idea. How about spending enough on the inner city schools so they can do their jobs?

You're spending 3 times as much in Detroit as Mesa now and getting 1/3 the return. It's not about money.
More than anything, it's about parents. The fact that Liberals can't see that explains why we have barack obama in the White House.

That's what happens when 1/3 of the public school student population moves to charter or private schools. Public schools loose the best and brightest and are left the most challenging students to educate.

It came to light when vouchers in the Milwaukee school system were up for a vote that the school district sent all it's problem students to private schools to deal with. It seems they do a better job for less money than the public schools in Milwaukee.

 

[bripat9643]

"check the funding behind some of the most miserable school systems in the country, many are receiving more per student than some of the best in the country."
I certainly agree with that statement. Poor performing schools which are usually schools filled with kids from low income families in high crime areas are loaded with special ed. kids with Emotional and Behavior Disorders, Intellectual Disabilities, Learning Disabilities, requiring special attention remedial education, early intervention programs, vocational cooperative work programs, increased security for staff and students, and in many cases lower class sizes. For these and other reasons per pupil cost in such schools can easily be 50% higher the best schools in a district. Cities and states with large numbers of such schools will have high costs.

Emotional and Behavior Disorders, Intellectual Disabilities and Learning Disabilities aren't restricted to low income cities. I'd bet Mesa AZ has just about the same percentage of special needs kids as Detroit and yet they graduate 3 times as many HS students for 1/3 the $/pupil.

I can't believe,you're comparing the cost of educating students in Mesa, Az. with Detroit, MI.
The family income in Mesa is $43,256 and $23,600 in Detroit.
The Murder rate in Mesa is 5/100,000 and 45/100,000 in Detroit, the city with highest crime rate in the nation.

In Detroit Public Schools, one in every 5 students is in special education, one of the highest rates in the nation. Detroit Public Schools has lost 1/3 of it's student population mostly to charter schools leaving the most difficult students to educate, a mountain of debt, and insufficient funding. This is exactly what can happen to public schools across the country if voters allow government to use vouchers to suck off the best students and funding from public schools.

That doesn't explain why it costs 3 times as much unless you're saying people who live in Detroit are incapable of learning. Are you a racist?

What will happen with vouchers is that parents who care will send their teachable kids to private schools where they will get an education that will prepare them for the real world. Public schools will see that their system is a failure and either adapt or close.

The first step in solving any problem is proposing a new solution. To say that public education since the beginning of HEW has deteriorated would be an understatement.
Throwing more money at public schools is like filling the gas tank of a car with a blown engine.

What I'm saying is providing education to students from very low income families is costly. Without head start programs and free kindergarten which is expensive, most of these kids won't be ready for 1st grade which means they will lack self confidence, the ability to follow rules and routines, and the ability to sustain any degree of attention to any single task. Low income students are twice as likely to need some type of special ed, a major expense for school districts. Discipline and crime require increased security. However, the major problem is these kids need individual attention which means lower class sizes and teacher aids, another big expense.

The public as well as government bureaucrats are horrified to see schools that have a graduation rate of 50% and are twice as expensive to operate as schools with an 80% graduation rates. What they don't realize is just how hard it is to educate these kids and resources required.

Some people see vouchers as the solution. The problem is that privates schools don't offer the type support these kids need and most of the private schools don't want them. I believe the best students in these "bad" public schools will use vouchers leaving the public schools less money to do an even harder job than they have now. If I thought the public schools would get the funding they needed to deal with the problems, I would have no opposition to vouchers, but I think we all know that will not be the case.

I think we shall agree to disagree. Vouchers are not the problem; they are not the solution; they are a symptom. You cannot cure a disease by treating the symptoms; you only make the patient comfortable while he dies. Parents recognize that the system is failing their children. When they complain to the school system, they are summarily ignored. They are left with only one alternative for their child - leave the school system that is failing them for something better (or perceived to be better).

We, simply, have a broken and failing education system. We throw massive amounts of money at a problem that money can't solve, but we do it so that we can at say we did 'something'. We keep trying to patch a broken system, but never look at the reason WHY it is broken.

The education system today is no different than it was 50 years ago. We lock a group of kids in a classroom, throw information at them, and then test them to see if they can regurgitate what they were just subjected to. Then, when we find that this didn't work, we change the system. We dumb down the presentation, and when that still fails, we dumb down the criteria.

It used to be that our education system valued mediocrity - lower the criteria to include even the least capable student, while punishing the high achievers with boredom. Now, we don't even do that - we expose them to information (not an education), and then we pass them on. It is phenomenally stupid to think that a student who can't read at the 4th grade level should be required to read Shakespeare. But, we do it every day.

So, the 4th grade reader is passed along again - until, eventually, he is passed along right out of school. He is the happy owner of a high school diploma, and is functionally illiterate. Then, we wonder why he can't get a job. The education system has failed him - he didn't fail the education system.

Vouchers aren't the answer - unless, of course,you are a parent who wants a quality education for YOUR child.

Vouchers aren't the answer - they are an indictment of the educational process in the US.

Vouchers aren't the answer - they are a cry for help.

Until we abolish government schools, vouchers are the answer. Government schools are the problem.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Translation: Eric Holder wants poor black kids to stay in shitty schools so they grow up to be poor black adults who keep voting Democrat.

U.S. government sues to block vouchers in some Louisiana school systems | NOLA.com

Nonsense.

You clearly have no understanding of the issue.

From your linked article:

'The Justice Department's primary argument is that letting students leave for vouchered private schools can disrupt the racial balance in public school systems that desegregation orders are meant to protect. Those orders almost always set rules for student transfers with the school system.

Federal analysis found that last year's Louisiana vouchers increased racial imbalance in 34 historically segregated public schools in 13 systems. The Justice Department goes so far as to charge that in some of those schools, "the loss of students through the voucher program reversed much of the progress made toward integration."

In Tangipahoa Parish, for instance, Independence Elementary School lost five white students to voucher schools, the petition states. The consequent change in the percent of enrolled white students "reinforc(ed) the racial identity of the school as a black school."'

DOJ's desire to ensure that desegregation court orders are not undermined by 'voucher programs' is perfectly appropriate and consistent with the law, particularly given the fact that 'voucher programs' show no positive effect on the overall quality of education, and serve to only further burden public school systems already struggling as a result of budget cuts and mismanagement by conservative politicians and administrators hostile to public schools, 'voucher programs' being evidence of that hostility.

 

[Unkotare]

I think most of the objection to vouchers will be a mute [sic] points [sic] because most private schools are not going to accept vouchers for a number of reasons.....

It seems as if you could have used a voucher or two yourself.

 

[bripat9643]

Translation: Eric Holder wants poor black kids to stay in shitty schools so they grow up to be poor black adults who keep voting Democrat.

U.S. government sues to block vouchers in some Louisiana school systems | NOLA.com

Nonsense.

You clearly have no understanding of the issue.

From your linked article:

'The Justice Department's primary argument is that letting students leave for vouchered private schools can disrupt the racial balance in public school systems that desegregation orders are meant to protect. Those orders almost always set rules for student transfers with the school system.

Federal analysis found that last year's Louisiana vouchers increased racial imbalance in 34 historically segregated public schools in 13 systems. The Justice Department goes so far as to charge that in some of those schools, "the loss of students through the voucher program reversed much of the progress made toward integration."

In Tangipahoa Parish, for instance, Independence Elementary School lost five white students to voucher schools, the petition states. The consequent change in the percent of enrolled white students "reinforc(ed) the racial identity of the school as a black school."'

DOJ's desire to ensure that desegregation court orders are not undermined by 'voucher programs' is perfectly appropriate and consistent with the law, particularly given the fact that 'voucher programs' show no positive effect on the overall quality of education, and serve to only further burden public school systems already struggling as a result of budget cuts and mismanagement by conservative politicians and administrators hostile to public schools, 'voucher programs' being evidence of that hostility.

That's the cover story. Nothing more. The real reason is that they oppose allowing children to get an education that isn't controlled by government employees.

 

[Flopper]

I can't believe,you're comparing the cost of educating students in Mesa, Az. with Detroit, MI.
The family income in Mesa is $43,256 and $23,600 in Detroit.
The Murder rate in Mesa is 5/100,000 and 45/100,000 in Detroit, the city with highest crime rate in the nation.

In Detroit Public Schools, one in every 5 students is in special education, one of the highest rates in the nation. Detroit Public Schools has lost 1/3 of it's student population mostly to charter schools leaving the most difficult students to educate, a mountain of debt, and insufficient funding. This is exactly what can happen to public schools across the country if voters allow government to use vouchers to suck off the best students and funding from public schools.

That doesn't explain why it costs 3 times as much unless you're saying people who live in Detroit are incapable of learning. Are you a racist?

What will happen with vouchers is that parents who care will send their teachable kids to private schools where they will get an education that will prepare them for the real world. Public schools will see that their system is a failure and either adapt or close.

The first step in solving any problem is proposing a new solution. To say that public education since the beginning of HEW has deteriorated would be an understatement.
Throwing more money at public schools is like filling the gas tank of a car with a blown engine.

What I'm saying is providing education to students from very low income families is costly. Without head start programs and free kindergarten which is expensive, most of these kids won't be ready for 1st grade which means they will lack self confidence, the ability to follow rules and routines, and the ability to sustain any degree of attention to any single task. Low income students are twice as likely to need some type of special ed, a major expense for school districts. Discipline and crime require increased security. However, the major problem is these kids need individual attention which means lower class sizes and teacher aids, another big expense.

The public as well as government bureaucrats are horrified to see schools that have a graduation rate of 50% and are twice as expensive to operate as schools with an 80% graduation rates. What they don't realize is just how hard it is to educate these kids and resources required.

Some people see vouchers as the solution. The problem is that privates schools don't offer the type support these kids need and most of the private schools don't want them. I believe the best students in these "bad" public schools will use vouchers leaving the public schools less money to do an even harder job than they have now. If I thought the public schools would get the funding they needed to deal with the problems, I would have no opposition to vouchers, but I think we all know that will not be the case.

I think we shall agree to disagree. Vouchers are not the problem; they are not the solution; they are a symptom. You cannot cure a disease by treating the symptoms; you only make the patient comfortable while he dies. Parents recognize that the system is failing their children. When they complain to the school system, they are summarily ignored. They are left with only one alternative for their child - leave the school system that is failing them for something better (or perceived to be better).

We, simply, have a broken and failing education system. We throw massive amounts of money at a problem that money can't solve, but we do it so that we can at say we did 'something'. We keep trying to patch a broken system, but never look at the reason WHY it is broken.

The education system today is no different than it was 50 years ago. We lock a group of kids in a classroom, throw information at them, and then test them to see if they can regurgitate what they were just subjected to. Then, when we find that this didn't work, we change the system. We dumb down the presentation, and when that still fails, we dumb down the criteria.

It used to be that our education system valued mediocrity - lower the criteria to include even the least capable student, while punishing the high achievers with boredom. Now, we don't even do that - we expose them to information (not an education), and then we pass them on. It is phenomenally stupid to think that a student who can't read at the 4th grade level should be required to read Shakespeare. But, we do it every day.

So, the 4th grade reader is passed along again - until, eventually, he is passed along right out of school. He is the happy owner of a high school diploma, and is functionally illiterate. Then, we wonder why he can't get a job. The education system has failed him - he didn't fail the education system.

Vouchers aren't the answer - unless, of course,you are a parent who wants a quality education for YOUR child.

Vouchers aren't the answer - they are an indictment of the educational process in the US.

Vouchers aren't the answer - they are a cry for help.

I think most of the objection to vouchers will be a mute points because most private schools are not going to accept vouchers for a number of reasons.

• Most of the states that have passed voucher law have restricted their use to a relatively small part of the student population, for example only students coming from schools scoring an F rating, only students whose family income is less 150% of the poverty level, only areas where no public schools exist, only students with certain disabilities.
• Free or Reduced Lunch programs which serve nearly 50 million students are only available in non-profit schools. Private schools that do offer Free or Reduced lunches must meet a number of serving and reporting requirement plus open their books up to federal audits.
• The majority of private schools have religious based programs/curriculum and most parents who send their children to these schools want that type education. Vouchers will make it difficult if not impossible for these schools to offer a religious based education.
• Many private schools are oppose to vouchers because they do not want the school opened up to government regulation.
• Parents who send their children to private schools of course want vouchers to help pay tuition. However, they also want their school to filter out the undesirable elements that exist in so many public schools. With vouchers, it becomes much more difficult to weed out these students.

The bottom line is even it courts allow these programs, they will have very little effect on public education.

If that's the case, then why do the NEA and NTF spend so much money fighting vouchers? Your criticisms can all be handled with appropriate legislation. For example, the one about government regulation can be handled simply by not allowing government to regulate private schools. That's a demand insisted upon by the NEA and the NTF to deliberately make vouchers unappealing. The voters can easily tell them to go to hell.

The NEA and NTF, oppose vouchers because it will reduce public schools funding in a few states if they are implemented. Overall, vouchers will have little effect on education because state laws limit their use to a very small part of the student population.

School vouchers are only an issue in a few states because most voters are not interested and secondly there is no proof that private schools are any better that public school.

In spite of all the jawboning by anti- government advocates, Americans are not clamoring for school vouchers: Most registered voters oppose the idea, and even parents of school-age children only divide evenly on it. If the use of vouchers would cut public school funding as it will in most states, support drops even further.

Although it's often assumed that private schools are so must better than public schools, the evidence is just not there. Most every argument for privatizing of education is based on a statistics showing the lack of student achievement and the cost. The logic of these arguments, if you call it logic is that since public schools are doing poorly, the private schools must be better. However, there are a number of studies that have found private schools are no better than public schools.





. .

 

[Flopper]

I can't believe,you're comparing the cost of educating students in Mesa, Az. with Detroit, MI.
The family income in Mesa is $43,256 and $23,600 in Detroit.
The Murder rate in Mesa is 5/100,000 and 45/100,000 in Detroit, the city with highest crime rate in the nation.

In Detroit Public Schools, one in every 5 students is in special education, one of the highest rates in the nation. Detroit Public Schools has lost 1/3 of it's student population mostly to charter schools leaving the most difficult students to educate, a mountain of debt, and insufficient funding. This is exactly what can happen to public schools across the country if voters allow government to use vouchers to suck off the best students and funding from public schools.

That doesn't explain why it costs 3 times as much unless you're saying people who live in Detroit are incapable of learning. Are you a racist?

What will happen with vouchers is that parents who care will send their teachable kids to private schools where they will get an education that will prepare them for the real world. Public schools will see that their system is a failure and either adapt or close.

The first step in solving any problem is proposing a new solution. To say that public education since the beginning of HEW has deteriorated would be an understatement.
Throwing more money at public schools is like filling the gas tank of a car with a blown engine.

What I'm saying is providing education to students from very low income families is costly. Without head start programs and free kindergarten which is expensive, most of these kids won't be ready for 1st grade which means they will lack self confidence, the ability to follow rules and routines, and the ability to sustain any degree of attention to any single task. Low income students are twice as likely to need some type of special ed, a major expense for school districts. Discipline and crime require increased security. However, the major problem is these kids need individual attention which means lower class sizes and teacher aids, another big expense.

The public as well as government bureaucrats are horrified to see schools that have a graduation rate of 50% and are twice as expensive to operate as schools with an 80% graduation rates. What they don't realize is just how hard it is to educate these kids and resources required.

Some people see vouchers as the solution. The problem is that privates schools don't offer the type support these kids need and most of the private schools don't want them. I believe the best students in these "bad" public schools will use vouchers leaving the public schools less money to do an even harder job than they have now. If I thought the public schools would get the funding they needed to deal with the problems, I would have no opposition to vouchers, but I think we all know that will not be the case.

I think we shall agree to disagree. Vouchers are not the problem; they are not the solution; they are a symptom. You cannot cure a disease by treating the symptoms; you only make the patient comfortable while he dies. Parents recognize that the system is failing their children. When they complain to the school system, they are summarily ignored. They are left with only one alternative for their child - leave the school system that is failing them for something better (or perceived to be better).

We, simply, have a broken and failing education system. We throw massive amounts of money at a problem that money can't solve, but we do it so that we can at say we did 'something'. We keep trying to patch a broken system, but never look at the reason WHY it is broken.

The education system today is no different than it was 50 years ago. We lock a group of kids in a classroom, throw information at them, and then test them to see if they can regurgitate what they were just subjected to. Then, when we find that this didn't work, we change the system. We dumb down the presentation, and when that still fails, we dumb down the criteria.

It used to be that our education system valued mediocrity - lower the criteria to include even the least capable student, while punishing the high achievers with boredom. Now, we don't even do that - we expose them to information (not an education), and then we pass them on. It is phenomenally stupid to think that a student who can't read at the 4th grade level should be required to read Shakespeare. But, we do it every day.

So, the 4th grade reader is passed along again - until, eventually, he is passed along right out of school. He is the happy owner of a high school diploma, and is functionally illiterate. Then, we wonder why he can't get a job. The education system has failed him - he didn't fail the education system.

Vouchers aren't the answer - unless, of course,you are a parent who wants a quality education for YOUR child.

Vouchers aren't the answer - they are an indictment of the educational process in the US.

Vouchers aren't the answer - they are a cry for help.

I think most of the objection to vouchers will be a mute points because most private schools are not going to accept vouchers for a number of reasons.

• Most of the states that have passed voucher law have restricted their use to a relatively small part of the student population, for example only students coming from schools scoring an F rating, only students whose family income is less 150% of the poverty level, only areas where no public schools exist, only students with certain disabilities.
• Free or Reduced Lunch programs which serve nearly 50 million students are only available in non-profit schools. Private schools that do offer Free or Reduced lunches must meet a number of serving and reporting requirement plus open their books up to federal audits.
• The majority of private schools have religious based programs/curriculum and most parents who send their children to these schools want that type education. Vouchers will make it difficult if not impossible for these schools to offer a religious based education.
• Many private schools are oppose to vouchers because they do not want the school opened up to government regulation.
• Parents who send their children to private schools of course want vouchers to help pay tuition. However, they also want their school to filter out the undesirable elements that exist in so many public schools. With vouchers, it becomes much more difficult to weed out these students.

The bottom line is even it courts allow these programs, they will have very little effect on public education.

If that's the case, then why do the NEA and NTF spend so much money fighting vouchers? Your criticisms can all be handled with appropriate legislation. For example, the one about government regulation can be handled simply by not allowing government to regulate private schools. That's a demand insisted upon by the NEA and the NTF to deliberately make vouchers unappealing. The voters can easily tell them to go to hell.

Neither government nor the voters are going to allow public funds to flow into private schools without regulations.

 

[Kosh]

That doesn't explain why it costs 3 times as much unless you're saying people who live in Detroit are incapable of learning. Are you a racist?

What will happen with vouchers is that parents who care will send their teachable kids to private schools where they will get an education that will prepare them for the real world. Public schools will see that their system is a failure and either adapt or close.

The first step in solving any problem is proposing a new solution. To say that public education since the beginning of HEW has deteriorated would be an understatement.
Throwing more money at public schools is like filling the gas tank of a car with a blown engine.

What I'm saying is providing education to students from very low income families is costly. Without head start programs and free kindergarten which is expensive, most of these kids won't be ready for 1st grade which means they will lack self confidence, the ability to follow rules and routines, and the ability to sustain any degree of attention to any single task. Low income students are twice as likely to need some type of special ed, a major expense for school districts. Discipline and crime require increased security. However, the major problem is these kids need individual attention which means lower class sizes and teacher aids, another big expense.

The public as well as government bureaucrats are horrified to see schools that have a graduation rate of 50% and are twice as expensive to operate as schools with an 80% graduation rates. What they don't realize is just how hard it is to educate these kids and resources required.

Some people see vouchers as the solution. The problem is that privates schools don't offer the type support these kids need and most of the private schools don't want them. I believe the best students in these "bad" public schools will use vouchers leaving the public schools less money to do an even harder job than they have now. If I thought the public schools would get the funding they needed to deal with the problems, I would have no opposition to vouchers, but I think we all know that will not be the case.

I think we shall agree to disagree. Vouchers are not the problem; they are not the solution; they are a symptom. You cannot cure a disease by treating the symptoms; you only make the patient comfortable while he dies. Parents recognize that the system is failing their children. When they complain to the school system, they are summarily ignored. They are left with only one alternative for their child - leave the school system that is failing them for something better (or perceived to be better).

We, simply, have a broken and failing education system. We throw massive amounts of money at a problem that money can't solve, but we do it so that we can at say we did 'something'. We keep trying to patch a broken system, but never look at the reason WHY it is broken.

The education system today is no different than it was 50 years ago. We lock a group of kids in a classroom, throw information at them, and then test them to see if they can regurgitate what they were just subjected to. Then, when we find that this didn't work, we change the system. We dumb down the presentation, and when that still fails, we dumb down the criteria.

It used to be that our education system valued mediocrity - lower the criteria to include even the least capable student, while punishing the high achievers with boredom. Now, we don't even do that - we expose them to information (not an education), and then we pass them on. It is phenomenally stupid to think that a student who can't read at the 4th grade level should be required to read Shakespeare. But, we do it every day.

So, the 4th grade reader is passed along again - until, eventually, he is passed along right out of school. He is the happy owner of a high school diploma, and is functionally illiterate. Then, we wonder why he can't get a job. The education system has failed him - he didn't fail the education system.

Vouchers aren't the answer - unless, of course,you are a parent who wants a quality education for YOUR child.

Vouchers aren't the answer - they are an indictment of the educational process in the US.

Vouchers aren't the answer - they are a cry for help.

I think most of the objection to vouchers will be a mute points because most private schools are not going to accept vouchers for a number of reasons.

• Most of the states that have passed voucher law have restricted their use to a relatively small part of the student population, for example only students coming from schools scoring an F rating, only students whose family income is less 150% of the poverty level, only areas where no public schools exist, only students with certain disabilities.
• Free or Reduced Lunch programs which serve nearly 50 million students are only available in non-profit schools. Private schools that do offer Free or Reduced lunches must meet a number of serving and reporting requirement plus open their books up to federal audits.
• The majority of private schools have religious based programs/curriculum and most parents who send their children to these schools want that type education. Vouchers will make it difficult if not impossible for these schools to offer a religious based education.
• Many private schools are oppose to vouchers because they do not want the school opened up to government regulation.
• Parents who send their children to private schools of course want vouchers to help pay tuition. However, they also want their school to filter out the undesirable elements that exist in so many public schools. With vouchers, it becomes much more difficult to weed out these students.

The bottom line is even it courts allow these programs, they will have very little effect on public education.

If that's the case, then why do the NEA and NTF spend so much money fighting vouchers? Your criticisms can all be handled with appropriate legislation. For example, the one about government regulation can be handled simply by not allowing government to regulate private schools. That's a demand insisted upon by the NEA and the NTF to deliberately make vouchers unappealing. The voters can easily tell them to go to hell.

The NEA and NTF, oppose vouchers because it will reduce public schools funding in a few states if they are implemented. Overall, vouchers will have little effect on education because state laws limit their use to a very small part of the student population.

School vouchers are only an issue in a few states because most voters are not interested and secondly there is no proof that private schools are any better that public school.

In spite of all the jawboning by anti- government advocates, Americans are not clamoring for school vouchers: Most registered voters oppose the idea, and even parents of school-age children only divide evenly on it. If the use of vouchers would cut public school funding as it will in most states, support drops even further.

Although it's often assumed that private schools are so must better than public schools, the evidence is just not there. Most every argument for privatizing of education is based on a statistic showing the lack of student achievement and the cost. The logic of these arguments, if you call it logic is that since public schools are doing poorly, the private schools must be better. However, there are a number of studies that have found private schools are no better than public schools.





. .

Translation: The far left is scared that this will affect the money laundering system from the unions to the DNC coffers..

 

[bripat9643]

That doesn't explain why it costs 3 times as much unless you're saying people who live in Detroit are incapable of learning. Are you a racist?

What will happen with vouchers is that parents who care will send their teachable kids to private schools where they will get an education that will prepare them for the real world. Public schools will see that their system is a failure and either adapt or close.

The first step in solving any problem is proposing a new solution. To say that public education since the beginning of HEW has deteriorated would be an understatement.
Throwing more money at public schools is like filling the gas tank of a car with a blown engine.

What I'm saying is providing education to students from very low income families is costly. Without head start programs and free kindergarten which is expensive, most of these kids won't be ready for 1st grade which means they will lack self confidence, the ability to follow rules and routines, and the ability to sustain any degree of attention to any single task. Low income students are twice as likely to need some type of special ed, a major expense for school districts. Discipline and crime require increased security. However, the major problem is these kids need individual attention which means lower class sizes and teacher aids, another big expense.

The public as well as government bureaucrats are horrified to see schools that have a graduation rate of 50% and are twice as expensive to operate as schools with an 80% graduation rates. What they don't realize is just how hard it is to educate these kids and resources required.

Some people see vouchers as the solution. The problem is that privates schools don't offer the type support these kids need and most of the private schools don't want them. I believe the best students in these "bad" public schools will use vouchers leaving the public schools less money to do an even harder job than they have now. If I thought the public schools would get the funding they needed to deal with the problems, I would have no opposition to vouchers, but I think we all know that will not be the case.

I think we shall agree to disagree. Vouchers are not the problem; they are not the solution; they are a symptom. You cannot cure a disease by treating the symptoms; you only make the patient comfortable while he dies. Parents recognize that the system is failing their children. When they complain to the school system, they are summarily ignored. They are left with only one alternative for their child - leave the school system that is failing them for something better (or perceived to be better).

We, simply, have a broken and failing education system. We throw massive amounts of money at a problem that money can't solve, but we do it so that we can at say we did 'something'. We keep trying to patch a broken system, but never look at the reason WHY it is broken.

The education system today is no different than it was 50 years ago. We lock a group of kids in a classroom, throw information at them, and then test them to see if they can regurgitate what they were just subjected to. Then, when we find that this didn't work, we change the system. We dumb down the presentation, and when that still fails, we dumb down the criteria.

It used to be that our education system valued mediocrity - lower the criteria to include even the least capable student, while punishing the high achievers with boredom. Now, we don't even do that - we expose them to information (not an education), and then we pass them on. It is phenomenally stupid to think that a student who can't read at the 4th grade level should be required to read Shakespeare. But, we do it every day.

So, the 4th grade reader is passed along again - until, eventually, he is passed along right out of school. He is the happy owner of a high school diploma, and is functionally illiterate. Then, we wonder why he can't get a job. The education system has failed him - he didn't fail the education system.

Vouchers aren't the answer - unless, of course,you are a parent who wants a quality education for YOUR child.

Vouchers aren't the answer - they are an indictment of the educational process in the US.

Vouchers aren't the answer - they are a cry for help.

I think most of the objection to vouchers will be a mute points because most private schools are not going to accept vouchers for a number of reasons.

• Most of the states that have passed voucher law have restricted their use to a relatively small part of the student population, for example only students coming from schools scoring an F rating, only students whose family income is less 150% of the poverty level, only areas where no public schools exist, only students with certain disabilities.
• Free or Reduced Lunch programs which serve nearly 50 million students are only available in non-profit schools. Private schools that do offer Free or Reduced lunches must meet a number of serving and reporting requirement plus open their books up to federal audits.
• The majority of private schools have religious based programs/curriculum and most parents who send their children to these schools want that type education. Vouchers will make it difficult if not impossible for these schools to offer a religious based education.
• Many private schools are oppose to vouchers because they do not want the school opened up to government regulation.
• Parents who send their children to private schools of course want vouchers to help pay tuition. However, they also want their school to filter out the undesirable elements that exist in so many public schools. With vouchers, it becomes much more difficult to weed out these students.

The bottom line is even it courts allow these programs, they will have very little effect on public education.

If that's the case, then why do the NEA and NTF spend so much money fighting vouchers? Your criticisms can all be handled with appropriate legislation. For example, the one about government regulation can be handled simply by not allowing government to regulate private schools. That's a demand insisted upon by the NEA and the NTF to deliberately make vouchers unappealing. The voters can easily tell them to go to hell.

Neither government nor the voters are going to allow public funds to flow into private schools without regulations.

I fully understand that NEA toadies like you will do everything you can to **** up private schools as much as you've fucked up the government schools, but plenty of people like me are going to do everything in our power to stop you.

 

[Redfish]

Thanks for letting us know you're nothing but another mindless partisan puke.

If you have any information on a Republican that has helped the middle class prosper, please post it.

You got the attention you wanted as a partisan douche, no need to belabor the point.

I'll make it easy. Can you name a Republican in the last 45 years that wrote or sponsored a bill that benefited the middle class and/or poor without giving a huge jump to the rich?

the civil rights bill was passed by republicans in spite of democrat fillibusters.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964?

Yes, fillibustered by democrat Robert KKK Byrd.

 

[Redfish]

libs and dems pretend that the 80s never happened.

I don't. The 80's was the beginning of the end for the middle class.

your view of history is very interesting, and very wrong.

 

[Redfish]

Middle class decline began in the early 80's. I watched it begin.

Not in the USA. Were you in Russia at the time?

 

[Ernie S.]

If you have any information on a Republican that has helped the middle class prosper, please post it.

You got the attention you wanted as a partisan douche, no need to belabor the point.

I'll make it easy. Can you name a Republican in the last 45 years that wrote or sponsored a bill that benefited the middle class and/or poor without giving a huge jump to the rich?

the civil rights bill was passed by republicans in spite of democrat fillibusters.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964?

Yes, fillibustered by democrat Robert KKK Byrd.

And Albert Gore Sr.

 

[CowboyTed]

The purpose of the Louisiana voucher system is to destroy what remains of the the public school system and move the remainder of the students into private schools. This is a process that began in the 1960's when white parents moved their students into private schools to escape integration. Louisiana has consistently ranked 49th to 50th in their quality of public educations. I suspect that Louisiana will be the first state to abandon public education in favor of private schools and will probably provide some of the best education in the country, for those that can afford it.

If they go to a voucher system, everyone can afford it. Demand will create good schools.

Louisiana like most states have some very good private schools and some piss poor ones. Not surprising the best schools usually have the highest tuition. They pick the best students who can afford their tuition and hire the best teachers. They avoid the problem students, those that have learning disabilities, severe emotional problems and delinquents leaving these students to the public schools whose budget is being cut to provide vouchers. These vouchers do not provide sufficient funds to go to the good schools. The end result is a two tier educational system, good schools for the wealthy and upper middle kids and crappy schools for the rest of the kids.

Louisiana is different from most states because it has always had a large number of private schools, mostly parochial. Thus there has been strong opposition to public schools and pressure to route money from public schools to private. Also Louisiana teacher unions are one of the weakest in the country. The results have been low budget and one of the worst public school systems in the nation. The voucher system only guarantees worst education in public schools.

Louisiana has has some the worst educated kids in America.

How about you look at the best educators and say why can't we copy them rather than coming up with disproven ways...

Sweden tried Vouchers and dumped them.. End off...
The best education systems in the world have Teacher Unions, that doesn't say they are better because they have unions but sure tells us that unions don't ruin a system..

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Lot of folks in this thread should read about the specific voucher program in question in the article, namely the Louisiana voucher system enacted under Bobby Jindal.

Successful voucher programs do exist, but Louisiana's is not one of them. The program was created as a fairly transparent way to funnel public funds into religious schools. It was intentionally created with almost no oversight. Oversight mechanisms had to be created when a church in Ruston opened a "school" in their meeting hall using dvd's and tv's as the educators. On top of that, the legislature was so desperate to get money into the hands of religious schools that they found, to their horror, that a newly formed madrassa in New Orleans would qualify for public support money.

On top of that, Jindal couldn't be bothered to read his own state constitution and violated minimal funding clauses that immediately put the program in trouble.

When it all shook out, parents also found out to their horror a lot of the best private schools in town wouldn't take in the students. To qualify for a voucher a student had to come from a terribly weak school and there was no incentive to accept those kids at all.

I understood the idea behind the law. Louisiana's schools are an absolute train wreck. I send my own kid to a private school here despite the fact it costs me a pretty penny each year. If I weren't leaving this state soon, my daughter would have followed right into private school once she came of age too.

 

[Flopper]

The purpose of the Louisiana voucher system is to destroy what remains of the the public school system and move the remainder of the students into private schools. This is a process that began in the 1960's when white parents moved their students into private schools to escape integration. Louisiana has consistently ranked 49th to 50th in their quality of public educations. I suspect that Louisiana will be the first state to abandon public education in favor of private schools and will probably provide some of the best education in the country, for those that can afford it.

If they go to a voucher system, everyone can afford it. Demand will create good schools.

Louisiana like most states have some very good private schools and some piss poor ones. Not surprising the best schools usually have the highest tuition. They pick the best students who can afford their tuition and hire the best teachers. They avoid the problem students, those that have learning disabilities, severe emotional problems and delinquents leaving these students to the public schools whose budget is being cut to provide vouchers. These vouchers do not provide sufficient funds to go to the good schools. The end result is a two tier educational system, good schools for the wealthy and upper middle kids and crappy schools for the rest of the kids.

Louisiana is different from most states because it has always had a large number of private schools, mostly parochial. Thus there has been strong opposition to public schools and pressure to route money from public schools to private. Also Louisiana teacher unions are one of the weakest in the country. The results have been low budget and one of the worst public school systems in the nation. The voucher system only guarantees worst education in public schools.

Louisiana has has some the worst educated kids in America.

How about you look at the best educators and say why can't we copy them rather than coming up with disproven ways...

Sweden tried Vouchers and dumped them.. End off...
The best education systems in the world have Teacher Unions, that doesn't say they are better because they have unions but sure tells us that unions don't ruin a system..

Public schools use their own stable of standardized tests, which they use for a variety of purposes: assessment and diagnostics, to name two. Private schools use different sets of tests - some derived from the same basic tests public schools use and created by the same companies - but still different enough that they can't be compared side by side with public school tests. Schools that accept vouchers should be required to give the same tests as public schools.

 

[Ernie S.]

I'm thinking that public schools would want different tests so parents couldn't see what a dismal failure they are.

 

[Flopper]

I'm thinking that public schools would want different tests so parents couldn't see what a dismal failure they are.

I'm sure that's so in many private school. However, if I was going to pay 12 to 15 grand a year to educate a child, I would want to see comparable data as to how much better the private school is than the public schools.

I have relatives with kids in private schools in both New Orleans and Baton Rouge. The reason they are in private schools is because their parents don't want them in a school that's 60% low income blacks.